Free will, the root of misunderstanding

[Sargento]

Wlliemac... sorry for the english mistakes...

If they want to be perfect but they CAN'T how is that free-will? And this is about works...

About will it self... wanting something is not free will.... it just means will, not free will... free will it would be to decide what to want or desire.
Can you change your will or is it constrained?

 

[Dodo_David]

This is a gross assumption. Maybe someone should inform God that man has no free will. Mankind is exhorted, even commanded by God, to humble himself. To say that we do not have free will is to make us robots awaiting to be programmed.

On the other hand, the power of God to salvation is in His gospel, which is the good news message that He died for our sin. The mandate for response includes our recognition and acknowledgment that we are sinners. And if we want to have eternal life we need to confess our sin to God and accept the free gift of life and righteousness.

I said earlier that we are missing a universal agreement as to the definition of free will. Without this agreement the argument can be and is endless, as people are using their own understanding of the term to make their case. I would rather simply observe God's dealings with man to see what kind of conclusion is appropriate on this matter.

The conclusion that we can make through observation is that man has the ability to think, reason, and respond. Without this, we could not even have relationship with other people. And since we can, we must conclude that we have the ability to enjoy fellowship and respond to others. To me, that is a no brainer. (pun intended).

Even Jesus admitted that sinners have the ability to love one another. So how does this agree with your conclusion that we have a will only to be evil? What we have is the inability to be righteous. This is more about ability than will. There is a difference. For example, I am now 59 years old and do not have the body I had when I was young and involved in high school athletics. So, no matter how much I want to excel in certain activities like I used to, I find I cannot. I have the will but not the ability.

Ask any sinner if he wishes he was perfect. Most will admit they are not but would like to be if they could..Hey, I know more than a few unbelievers who will admit that if there is a heaven, they do not deserve to go there. ......Enter the gospel.

Uh, the above quoted argument is a bit of a straw-man argument.

What is being questioned is whether or not humans have unlimited free will.

It is possible for a person to have limited free will.

Also, the claim that God is not in control is a claim that isn't supported by Scripture.

 

[Sargento]

Hi Dodo... limited free-will is not free-will.

If something is limited its not free, but if its free it cannot be limited... they are the opposite...
...from the moment that a will is limited it can no longer be called free, because of that same reason, its limited.

 

[Dodo_David]

Hi Dodo... limited free-will is not free-will.

If something is limited its not free, but if its free it cannot be limited... they are the opposite...
...from the moment that a will is limited it can no longer be called free, because of that same reason, its limited.

If you drive an automobile, then you can exercise free will when it comes to where you drive, but you are still have to drive according to the traffic laws. What you choose to do while driving is limited by legal boundaries.

Nothing prevents God from setting our choices within boundaries of His choosing.

 

[Sargento]

Hi Dodo...

When I drive a automobile I choose my path according to what I want which comes from GOD... I do not create my own will, GOD does.

Do you create your own will? Do you have the power to decide what you like and what you hate?

 

[Dodo_David]

Hi Dodo...

When I drive a automobile I choose my path according to what I want which comes from GOD... I do not create my own will, GOD does.

Do you create your own will? Do you have the power to decide what you like and what you hate?

Whether you choose the route you drive or God chooses it, I do not know. What I do know is that you drive according to traffic laws.

Also, I know that nothing is out of God's control. He is omnipotent.

 

[Sargento]

Dodo...

Whether you choose the route you drive or God chooses it, I do not know. What I do know is that you drive according to traffic laws.

I understand what you're saying...
But that is the difference between having free will and not having it.

Having free will would be to be able to change your will, or nature, or what you feel.... that would be FREE will.

Because OBEYING to your will means NOT that it's free but that you're under someone, because the ONE who sustains that will is the same who does not sustains another one instead...
However, you cannot even always obey your will because your so limited inside as you are outside... your will will follow it's nature just like your body will... so even if you want to do something (which comes from the one who sustains your existence) that does not mean you'll be able to do it.

Also, I know that nothing is out of God's control. He is omnipotent.

And this is good... I'm happy for this.
But not only nothing is out HIS control as nothing happens that HE does not want or causes to happen.

THIS IS GOD.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Dodo...



I understand what you're saying...
But that is the difference between having free will and not having it.

Having free will would be to be able to change your will, or nature, or what you feel.... that would be FREE will.

Because OBEYING to your will means NOT that it's free but that you're under someone, because the ONE who sustains that will is the same who does not sustains another one instead...
However, you cannot even always obey your will because your so limited inside as you are outside... your will will follow it's nature just like your body will... so even if you want to do something (which comes from the one who sustains your existence) that does not mean you'll be able to do it.



And this is good... I'm happy for this.
But not only nothing is out HIS control as nothing happens that HE does not want or causes to happen.

THIS IS GOD.

The problem with analogies etc is they're subject to the IQ/ability of the individual. Often an illustration will undermine or completely side track the truth of a matter. So, if one is going to select such to make his point &/or emphasis a spiritual truth, he/she ought to check that it's not contradicting other spiritual laws. Otherwise we stumble before we walk and we end on 'a road to know where'.

 

[Sargento]

Hi JB.

The veracity of an analogie depends of the capacity GOD gives to the one who made that analogie... making or correcting an analogie (ABOUT THE TRUTH) does not depend on IQ, it depends on knowledge of truth which depends on GOD.

If you have any correction to make you may post them my friend... I will read it and analyse it.

 

[Dodo_David]

What I know is this:

God has the authority and the ability to do anything that He wants when He wants to.
Otherwise, He would not be God.

Nothing requires that God do things that make sense according to human logic.
Indeed, God's logic is beyond the comprehension of humans.
In Isaiah 55:8-9 we read the following:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

 

[Sargento]

Hi Dodo...

Isaiah 55:8-9 is talking about the old heart before Christ, the natural man... after Christ all as changed and HE shows us everything for we have the mind of Christ.... read carefully what Paul says about this:

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, {even} the hidden {wisdom}, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known {it}, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed {them} unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know {them}, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. {judgeth: or, discerneth} {judged: or, discerned}
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. {may: Gr. shall}
1 Co2:6-16.


God is no longer a mystery for their sons because it reveals them HIS own heart... and this new heart is the new covenant...


Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not {this} for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I {am} the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. {their: or, your}
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do {them}.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that {were} not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
Ez 36:22-31

GOD makes no sense in the human logic, but HE does for the one who knows HIM... HIS logic is beyond mankind, but not his sons because HE shows them what HE is doing and why.

What don't you understand about no free-will my friend? What's blocking you?
Ask and I'll explain it as good has GOD allows me to.

 

[Dodo_David]

Hi Dodo...

Isaiah 55:8-9 is talking about the old heart before Christ, the natural man... after Christ all as changed and HE shows us everything for we have the mind of Christ.... read carefully what Paul says about this:

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, {even} the hidden {wisdom}, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known {it}, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed {them} unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know {them}, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. {judgeth: or, discerneth} {judged: or, discerned}
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. {may: Gr. shall}
1 Co2:6-16.


God is no longer a mystery for their sons because it reveals them HIS own heart... and this new heart is the new covenant...


Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not {this} for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I {am} the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. {their: or, your}
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do {them}.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that {were} not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
Ez 36:22-31

GOD makes no sense in the human logic, but HE does for the one who knows HIM... HIS logic is beyond mankind, but not his sons because HE shows them what HE is doing and why.

What don't you understand about no free-will my friend? What's blocking you?
Ask and I'll explain it as good has GOD allows me to.

I would have a much better understanding of Bible quotations if those quotations were in the English that I use, instead of English that was used 400 years ago.

Anyway, I am not one of those who says that mankind as unlimited free will.

 

[williemac]

Whether you choose the route you drive or God chooses it, I do not know. What I do know is that you drive according to traffic laws.

Also, I know that nothing is out of God's control. He is omnipotent.

Traffic laws can be disobeyed. As well, God has said..."thou shalt not". But this too can be disobeyed. The boundaries can be broken and this is where authority comes in. As I said earlier, authority is not control. If God was in total control of person's actions, He then would not have needed to set boundaries and command us to stay within them.

What is true is that nothing is out of God's authority.

However, in the subject of free will, it would help to understand the purpose of it. Here is one perspective. We are relationship beings. God is a relationship Being. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the full potential of relationship and intimacy cannot be experienced unless the two parties are willing participants in the relationship.

I am observing the thing that I spoke of, in that there is still no agreed definition of free will from which to discuss this subject.
But as I shared earlier, we can see that mankind has the ability to think, reason, and respond. Without this ability, we could not enjoy fellowship with each other or with our creator, and furthermore, if God had not given us this ability, He would not be satisfied with a relationship with mere puppets or robots.

We did not choose God. He is the pursuer. We are the responders. But He will not control our response. He will court us, persuade us, reason with us, communicate His love, and as the scripture says, He will knock on our door. But we can choose to open it or not. Otherwise Rev.3:20 is a joke, my friend.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Hello friends

I am a Christian and pastor of the church elected in Portugal.

Also I already went defender of doctrine of free arbitrio and member and pastor of an evangelical church, until the day that that I was visited by Espirito of God in which me revealed that such a doctrine not passes from an illusion that has enslaved million people and has prevented of knowing things of God.

And from that day made ​​me know the grace of God, God's offer in Christ Jesus, and that's what I come here to testify.

And speaking very little English, I have to write pe translator, but let's start:

The scripture says:





If the natural man is unable to believe in God, as they say he is free to choose God? As someone chooses not comprende and think crazy?

Peace

Greetings,
God will not make man love Him for He is a GREAT REWARD and He is not about to give blessing to those who hate His Word/Son. If they want to choose to live a cursed life, that is THEIR CHOICE!
Our free will is to choose to live under God's authority by obeying His Voice/Word or to live as your own god doing it OUR WAY. God has many blessings for those who love and obey Him... but when we choose with our freewill to go it on our own, leaning on our own understanding then God's blessings are far and few in between. God is God of all the earth and just ever so often even those who don't know God personally make a good choice of doing what is right in the sight of God and they will obtain blessings for that for God's spiritual law is for every one. But when we do not know Christ personally then we do not know God's Word and we stumble because the world for the most part have followed the path of the devils words or making their own rules yet we understand that without God's Spirit indwelling us, we can not know or receive the things of God for we are carnally minded.
Christ is a blessing... people do not know what they are missing when they reject the Wisdom of God!

 

[veteran]

Everyone not of God's elect are free to reject... Christ Jesus and turn aside to another.

If that were not so, then Christ and His Apostles would not have given so many warnings against falling away. Nor would it have been ever possible for the children of Israel in Old Testament times to have fallen away.

All those who push the 'fate' doctrine of no free will are doing is trying to create an excuse for their sins.

 

[Sargento]

DODO...

I would have a much better understanding of Bible quotations if those quotations were in the English that I use, instead of English that was used 400 years ago.

Anyway, I am not one of those who says that mankind as unlimited free will.

Well, English is not my natural language, but I thought this was one of the most respect translations (King James)... what is the best translation or the one with the most acceptance in nowadays so I use more?

So what do you say about free will?


afaithfulone4u...

Greetings,
God will not make man love Him for He is a GREAT REWARD and He is not about to give blessing to those who hate His Word/Son. If they want to choose to live a cursed life, that is THEIR CHOICE!
Our free will is to choose to live under God's authority by obeying His Voice/Word or to live as your own god doing it OUR WAY. God has many blessings for those who love and obey Him... but when we choose with our freewill to go it on our own, leaning on our own understanding then God's blessings are far and few in between. God is God of all the earth and just ever so often even those who don't know God personally make a good choice of doing what is right in the sight of God and they will obtain blessings for that for God's spiritual law is for every one. But when we do not know Christ personally then we do not know God's Word and we stumble because the world for the most part have followed the path of the devils words or making their own rules yet we understand that without God's Spirit indwelling us, we can not know or receive the things of God for we are carnally minded.
Christ is a blessing... people do not know what they are missing when they reject the Wisdom of God!

If GOD will not make man love HIM how can man do it being slave of sin by birth? You think sin will let him?
If the natural man cannot understand the things of GOD and finds them foolishness how will he love HIM?

We love him, because he first loved us.
1 John 4:19


VETERAN...

Everyone not of God's elect are free to reject... Christ Jesus and turn aside to another.

If that were not so, then Christ and His Apostles would not have given so many warnings against falling away. Nor would it have been ever possible for the children of Israel in Old Testament times to have fallen away.

All those who push the 'fate' doctrine of no free will are doing is trying to create an excuse for their sins.

If maintaining salvation is in your hands than you have merit ... is that what you believe in to get salvation? Your own fidelity? The power of your virtue?

The warnings is to not let them selves be fooled by sin for we were not saved to serve sin... however salvation is not ever is stake... the eternal life is FREE not by salary for good behavior.

 

[Dodo_David]

Sargento, you are welcome to use any version of the Bible that you want, including the KJV, but it is not necessary to use the King James Version in a public, English-speaking forum.

The KJV contains archaic language that can be confusing to modern-day English speaking people.

The KJV originally gained use when its use was legally mandated for people under English rule.

Now that English-speaking nations have freedom of religion, English-speaking people are free to use the English versions of the Bible of their choosing.

In order to cater to an international audience, I choose to quote from the New International Version, which is the version of choice of the creators of this website.

If you want to have access to the NIV or any other version, then I recommend that you make use of the free website http://www.biblegateway.com/, which gives you a choice of many versions written in different languages.

Again, you can still use the KJV, but others (like me) may have difficulty understanding it.

As for free will, God has it.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Good grief! Complaining about Elizabethan English? I guess they no longer teach Shakespeare in school. The English used in the KJV is considered modern English, as opposed to old English and middle English. By the strictest standard of literacy, which I subscribe to, anyone lacking familiarity in English literature is illiterate because it forms the foundation of what we call English today. Are you seriously saying you can't understand it?

Of all the lame things to complain about....really.....

 

[Dodo_David]

Good grief! Complaining about Elizabethan English? I guess they no longer teach Shakespeare in school. The English used in the KJV is considered modern English, as opposed to old English and middle English. By the strictest standard of literacy, which I subscribe to, anyone lacking familiarity in English literature is illiterate because it forms the foundation of what we call English today. Are you seriously saying you can't understand it?

Of all the lame things to complain about....really.....

Thou complaineth about my desireth to useth modern-day English? Go figureth.

 

[Angelina]

Free will and predestination go hand in hand. God predestined mankind to fulfill his plan both Jew and Gentile, male and female, black, white or red. Mankind has a free will to choose whether he wishes to follow Gods plan or not.

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 12
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Shalom!!!