Free-will vs No Free-will (God knows everything?)
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
It is possible, but whether or not He does we cannot know.
God knows everything. Omniscient means all knowledge. He foretold events decades, centuries and millenia in advance. Jesus saw Phillip under teh fig tree and knew his thoughts.
Unsaved man does not have the will to choose or not choose God. The human nature is opposed to God. when a person gets saved, then we have our free will restorred because our spirits are made alive again.
Divine determinsm is what God has willed to be accomplished. He has set a limit to how long time will last, as well as choosing Israel as His covenanted, nation Jesus being th e Lamb slain before teh foundation of the world, He choosing us to be saved before the foundation of the world among many other things.
Given that, god also has set in motion the universe and allows it to operate according to the laws of physics and chemistry and biology etc, that He established. He may or may not determine storms, but most are simply the result of the weather patterns that have deteriorated saince the flood.
Thank you for sharing. I don't believe that an unsaved man negates the ability to choose. While yes, the flesh is opposed to the things of God - faith comes by hearing, and if a person hears truths pertaining to God, within the flesh of the man the soul makes a choice to turn towards God, and become born again. Yes, I understand that once a person is born again, they are no longer in bondage to their former state and go through a process of dying to themselves, with picking up the cross, dying with Christ, being buried with Christ, and being raised again with Christ into newness of life laying down the former old life. It all involves choice, choice to listen to the word of God, or perhaps if they do not have the gospel - they may be out there who just love, and believe that there is something greater than themselves, when they see God by nature - such as the bible says "the heavens declare the handiwork and glory of God." Love is the determining factor of a Christian in general. God is love, and if a person hate their brother they are walking in darkness, and do not know God even if they claim 'I know God.'
Concerning Divine determinism, would that involve God's covenants which he made with the nation of Israel?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The concept of Divine determinism is not the same as the belief in God's omniscience. While it is true that God knows everything, Divine determinism is a separate concept from the theological doctrine known as "Middle knowledge." According to Middle knowledge, God possesses such great intelligence that he can accurately anticipate my actions and plan accordingly. (I apologize for my simplified explanation and mean no disrespect.) The doctrine of Divine Determinism postulates that reality is like a novel being written by God the author. Just as the author transcends his novel, God transcends our reality.
I don't know, I don't know the mind of God. There is the covenants though.
Just as predeterminism suggests that God through covenants had a predetermined decision through blessings and cursings that involved the nation of Israel in particular considering - Yahava, made covenant with them, and not America, or any other nation.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Human nature is an enemy of God, we are unable to choose God on our own.
Romans 8:7- Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
So, we are unable to seek God on our own, it is God who draws us to Him.
John 6:65 - And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
So to seek answers and knowledge of God, is God calling you. You cannot choose,
John 6:44-45 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Every thing is about Jesus and it is the Father who brings you to Jesus.
That is just a systematic way of belief, @Rockerduck. I don't accept that as truth.
I believe people do have freewill to choose God, and do disagree with what you say even though you may use 'scripture' to prove your point.
I believe people do have freewill to choose God, and do disagree with what you say even though you may use 'scripture' to prove your point.
@Rockerduck
What would you say about those who have no bible to read, or learn about God. Are they limited and can not choose and are destined to go straight to hell, in a handbasket?
What about how nature talks to them?
Psalms 19:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Can those out there in the wild look up at the stars and the glory of God, and see there is something greater than them, and come to faith through those means or is it impossible?
What would you say about those who have no bible to read, or learn about God. Are they limited and can not choose and are destined to go straight to hell, in a handbasket?
What about how nature talks to them?
Psalms 19:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Can those out there in the wild look up at the stars and the glory of God, and see there is something greater than them, and come to faith through those means or is it impossible?
Behold
Well-Known Member
If what you wrote is true then Jesus is a liar, when He told SINNERS.....>"All that believe in me, i give unto them, eternal Life".
Jesus told us that "if you do not believe in Me, then you will die in your sins".
So, He never said..>"you'll believe in me because i'll determine that you do".... and this idea that God chooses some, and does not choose others, is literally the doctrine that God chooses some for Hell., and that is a Cross denying Lie.
Calvin is the one who created this false idea that John 3:16 is a lie.
Calvin denies "faith is counted as righteousness".
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
God sees the past, present, and future all at once as we see the present moment. He knows our entire lives, from start to finish in a glance. But, Him knowing does not interfere with our free-will choices.
It is always a mistake to assume we are anywhere near God's level of intelligence, wisdom, beauty, love, etc. We are closer in IQ to an amoeba than to God. Everything that happens, happens either through God's providential will, or through His permissive will, and always, always for the good. We may not, in this life, see or understand what that good is,but because we know God's nature is pure good, it cannot be otherwise.
It is always a mistake to assume we are anywhere near God's level of intelligence, wisdom, beauty, love, etc. We are closer in IQ to an amoeba than to God. Everything that happens, happens either through God's providential will, or through His permissive will, and always, always for the good. We may not, in this life, see or understand what that good is,but because we know God's nature is pure good, it cannot be otherwise.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Some argue that "predestination" applies to what God will do once a freewill agent repents and believes in his Son Jesus Christ. In short, God pre-decided or predetermined to bless rather than curse believers. As compelling as that view may be, I don't think the Bible is that trite.
Of course, God is going to bless those who believe and trust him. Right? (I'm not suggesting this is your view. ) What else would a good God do? Actual predestination only makes sense from within the context of God's role as the creator. Free agency must be understood within the context of being a creature.
Paul defends God against the charge that he is unjust for predestination in his epistle to the Romans, chapter 9. His argument is based on the logic of a creator. Would God, or anyone else, be unjust if he wrote a murder mystery where the bad guy kills his brother because his brother slept with his wife? I don't think so. No actual or real person was killed. The logic of fiction is different than the logic of real life.
Even so, the Bible acknowledges the fact that we are creatures -- made by the hand of God himself. Given this fact, couldn't we say that God is "more real" than we are? With respect to our existence, one could argue that God is the most real being. With that in mind, let's take a look at Romans 9.
Romans 9:19-24
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Who resists his will?
Good question. Paul has given voice to a very common objection to Divine Determinism. Doesn't this theological position cause God to sin? If so, how can he blame us for what he makes us do? And Paul faces this question head-on. And we learn a lot from his answer.
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?
At first glance, Paul's words may come across as condescending towards an insolent child. But upon further examination, he is asking us to reflect on our own identity as a "thing" that has been shaped. It's illogical for the molded to question its own creation by asking, "Why did you make me this way?" Instead, it's reasonable to acknowledge that our creator has the authority to fashion us into any being he desires.
The perspective of a "chooser" varies depending on whether they are making something or selecting something. For instance, when a woman needs a pot, she typically peruses the available options in the store and chooses one that fits her requirements. On the other hand, a potter doesn't have to choose from pre-existing pots; instead, he can simply craft a pot that meets his needs. If a potter requires a chamber pot, he can make one. If he needs a vase for flowers, he can create one. In a similar vein, Paul argues that God tailors each person to fulfill a unique purpose.
To convey the story of salvation or redemption, God may create a villain to be judged or a repentant sinner to be saved. While we may not typically use this language, it's important to remember that as creatures, we must acknowledge God's role as our creator in understanding his justice with regards to predestination.
Yes, @CadyandZoe people will argue just about anything.
It seems to me that predestination deals with covenants. That is it, it is a joy to be able to read Romans 9-11, and come to an understanding they are under judgement for the decisions they choose to go with, just as Jesus foretold in the parable to the tenants that were given the land.
Matthew 21:33-46
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures:
‘The very stone which the builders rejected
has become the head of the corner;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.”[a]
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 But when they tried to arrest him, they feared the multitudes, because they held him to be a prophet.
It seems to me that predestination deals with covenants. That is it, it is a joy to be able to read Romans 9-11, and come to an understanding they are under judgement for the decisions they choose to go with, just as Jesus foretold in the parable to the tenants that were given the land.
Matthew 21:33-46
Revised Standard Version
The Parable of the Wicked Tenants
33 “Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; 35 and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. 37 Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures:
‘The very stone which the builders rejected
has become the head of the corner;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.”[a]
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 But when they tried to arrest him, they feared the multitudes, because they held him to be a prophet.
Behold
Well-Known Member
YES.
As, If God made our choices for us, then God could not hold us accountable for them.
He does.
Just ask the thousands who died and went to hell today, and yesterday, and tomorrow.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Then you need to find out how an unsaved man can overcome what the bible says about the unsaved:
Romans 8:7-8
King James Version
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 3:9-12
King James Version
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version
14 But the natural man received not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.According to these verses- the natural (unsaved) cannot please God, nor wants to, nor can even understand the things of God.
Romans 9:11-23
King James Version
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
John 1:12-13
King James Version
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
These verses show it is not the will of man, but God.
Ephesians 1:4
King James Version
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:We did not choose HIm, but He chose us to be in HIm, before the world was even created!
Romans 8:29-30
King James Version
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Predestinate means to mark in advance ( pro-horizo)
Foreknowledge is : pro gnosis known in advance. this does not mean God knew what we would choose (see Eph 1:4) but like a doctor who gives a patient their prognosis about the disease or injury they are treating. It is because the doctor knows in advance what they will do and howe thye will heal the patient-The foreknowledge is based on God knowing what He will do and not what man will do.
Then you need to find out how an unsaved man can overcome what the bible says about the unsaved:
Romans 8:7-8
King James Version
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 3:9-12
King James Version
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version
14 But the natural man received not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
According to these verses- the natural (unsaved) cannot please God, nor wants to, nor can even understand the things of God.
Romans 9:11-23
King James Version
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
John 1:12-13
King James Version
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
These verses show it is not the will of man, but God.
Ephesians 1:4
King James Version
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
We did not choose HIm, but He chose us to be in HIm, before the world was even created!
Romans 8:29-30
King James Version
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Predestinate means to mark in advance ( pro-horizo)
Foreknowledge is : pro gnosis known in advance. this does not mean God knew what we would choose (see Eph 1:4) but like a doctor who gives a patient their prognosis about the disease or injury they are treating. It is because the doctor knows in advance what they will do and howe thye will heal the patient-The foreknowledge is based on God knowing what He will do and not what man will do.
Jesus did pick and choose who would be his, in faith in his day in time. Still Gentiles had to make a decision to come into faith, when they heard the word. God made a covenant with the nation of Israel, they were going to suffer for their choices, in that day in age and suffered loss of everything in the final day of the great and dreadful day of the Lord, and all the former covenant was done away with in 70AD.
Jesus saw the sons of Zebeedee, and said "come ill make you fishers of men", and they dropped their nets and followed.
It's simple, @Ronald Nolette. Not difficult to understand at all. Human beings choose. But people will fight against the ability for people to choose to the very day they die.
This is not that thread, everyone here is free to think for themselves, and are encouraged not to believe anyone here.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
According to Paul in Romans;
Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Paul goes onto says they made images to worship instead of God.
Romans 1:21-23 - because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
People made their choice.
Just as Paul said to the people in Romans,
Romans 2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
You have those who have no excuse, and you have those who know yet also judge them.
Like the Pharisees when Jesus was alive, in how they loved to be worshipped and seen in the market place.
Matthew 23:7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
What is your point, @Rockerduck?
Will you answer my question?
Are you still going to fight - free will choice? That is your choice.
I hope you can see the issue.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
You are confusing Jesus choosing us, and we are like Jesus and can choose. Jesus is God; the goal is to answer to Jesus. We cannot choose Jesus, it is Jesus that calls us.
Revelation 3:19-21 - Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
I am just looking for an answer, do people have a choice to open that door, or are there people who have no freewill to open that door. That is the whole premise of the question in general.
Now when it comes to contextual reasoning - it does deal pertaining to the lose sheep of Israel when it comes to the covenants so I dont believe I am confused at all, you may be and that is okay cause perhaps you are not use to these types of conversations.
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