Free-will vs No Free-will (God knows everything?)

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MatthewG

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A lot of the times, people will try to throw people off by use of other things, rather than just being straightforward and answer questions.

So far, there are those who believe there is freewill, and there are those who believe there is no freewill at all (cause they quote the scripture to make their stance firm), not everything a person sharers on here may be the truth.

It's either yes, I believe people can choose to come to Christ, and pick up the cross and die with him, and raise to new life if they choose too.

Or no. People can't choose whatsoever, period. God picks and chooses and that is it, and they dont even have a choice to not accept it.

What you believe all boils down to you, and what you learn about the Bible itself.

All the best to all of you, thank you everyone for participating.
 

Rockerduck

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People made their choice.

Just as Paul said to the people in Romans,

Romans 2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

You have those who have no excuse, and you have those who know yet also judge them.

Like the Pharisees when Jesus was alive, in how they loved to be worshipped and seen in the market place.

Matthew 23:7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

What is your point, @Rockerduck?

Will you answer my question?




Are you still going to fight - free will choice? That is your choice.

I hope you can see the issue.
No arguments here. it Is one of those who believe or not questions. I hear people say they have freewill all the time. In my walk with Jesus it isn't so, but in your life it could be so.
 

MatthewG

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No arguments here. it Is one of those who believe or not questions. I hear people say they have freewill all the time. In my walk with Jesus it isn't so, but in your life it could be so.
Okay. Thank you for participating, Rockerduck.
 

MatthewG

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Another example from Jesus by his own mouth, about Jerusalem.

The people there were not willingly.

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.


Everyone is given freewill. They decide whether or not they desire God to be in their life, or completely leave him out. God allows them to freely choose, and today in this life God is not angry or mad at them. He calls by the spirit, to come.


Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
 

MatthewG

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Another example from Jesus by his own mouth, about Jerusalem.

The people there were not willingly.

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.


Everyone is given freewill. They decide whether or not they desire God to be in their life, or completely leave him out. God allows them to freely choose, and today in this life God is not angry or mad at them. He calls by the spirit, to come.


Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

There are issues that come about - while I don't believe Satan is still around today due to the victory Christ. Darkness (starts with-in us), and the spirits of the world can come into a persons life, and take them away from Jesus.

Just read this parable by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 13​

New Living Translation​

Parable of the Farmer Scattering Seed​

13 Later that same day Jesus left the house and sat beside the lake.

2 A large crowd soon gathered around him, so he got into a boat. Then he sat there and taught as the people stood on the shore.

3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one:
“Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds.

4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them.

5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow.

6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died.

7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!

9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”

10 His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?”

11 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets[a] of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. 12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. 13 That is why I use these parables,
For they look, but they don’t really see.
They hear, but they don’t really listen or understand.


14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that says,
‘When you hear what I say,
you will not understand.
When you see what I do,
you will not comprehend.
15 For the hearts of these people are hardened,
and their ears cannot hear,
and they have closed their eyes—
so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and let me heal them.’[b]


16 “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

17 I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but they didn’t see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn’t hear it.


18 “Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds:

19 The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.

20 The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy.

21 But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.

22 The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced.

23 The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”
 

Behold

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Jesus calls and you have to answer or not; you can reject the call.. Jesus is in control of all heaven and earth.

Jesus is always calling.

He said so.. . He told us..>"if i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will DRAW ALL people to me".

Will they come?

Not all.....but they are always invited, until they die, and then, there is no way back.
 

BlessedPeace

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What do you mean by all knowing? Does it mean when something happens God is able to work around that issue? It seems like that is the narrative all through the bible.

If people believe God is all knowing like CadyandZoe shared, it would mean its Gods fault that humankind had fell in the first place.
I wouldn't label the fall as God's fault. But, God's plan.
 

CadyandZoe

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Yes, @CadyandZoe people will argue just about anything.

It seems to me that predestination deals with covenants. That is it, it is a joy to be able to read Romans 9-11, and come to an understanding they are under judgement for the decisions they choose to go with, just as Jesus foretold in the parable to the tenants that were given the land.

Matthew 21:33-46​

Revised Standard Version​

The Parable of the Wicked Tenants​

33 “Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; 35 and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. 37 Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures:
‘The very stone which the builders rejected
has become the head of the corner;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.”[a]
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 But when they tried to arrest him, they feared the multitudes, because they held him to be a prophet.
I'm not sure how predestination is associated with covenants. I understand that foreknowledge is. That is, when the Bible says that God "foreknew" Israel, he is talking about a covenant he made with Israel. How is predestination associated with covenants?
 

Ronald Nolette

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Jesus did pick and choose who would be his, in faith in his day in time. Still Gentiles had to make a decision to come into faith, when they heard the word. God made a covenant with the nation of Israel, they were going to suffer for their choices, in that day in age and suffered loss of everything in the final day of the great and dreadful day of the Lord, and all the former covenant was done away with in 70AD.
There is no Scripture to show this
Jesus saw the sons of Zebeedee, and said "come ill make you fishers of men", and they dropped their nets and followed.

It's simple, @Ronald Nolette. Not difficult to understand at all. Human beings choose. But people will fight against the ability for people to choose to the very day they die.

This is not that thread, everyone here is free to think for themselves, and are encouraged not to believe anyone here.
That is not what the Scriptures say. I just showed you what the bible says.

Even for the disciples, Jesus said, "you did not choose me, but I chose you".
 

MatthewG

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I'm not sure how predestination is associated with covenants. I understand that foreknowledge is. That is, when the Bible says that God "foreknew" Israel, he is talking about a covenant he made with Israel. How is predestination associated with covenants?
Blessings and curses, only made to them.
 

MatthewG

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@CadyandZoe

Just take time to read some of the old testament you find things like this (because od breaking a covenante a predestined path is taken with God) … it almost always deals israel though.

Therefore Just like the killing of the Son of God; Jesus proclaimed the predestined path (there destruction) parable of the evil farmers.

Now today, i dont believe predestined choosings happen because Jesus the Messiah is on the throne ( no longer at the right hand) as it is commonly taught - as Jesus has had the victory though many say…


Yes… but not yet rhetoric.
 

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MatthewG

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@CadyandZoe

Just take time to read some of the old testament you find things like this (because od breaking a covenante a predestined path is taken with God) … it always deals israel though.

Therefore Just like the killing of the Son of God; Jesus proclaimed the predestined path (there destruction) parable of the evil farmers.

Now today, i dont believe predestined choosings happen because Jesus the Messiah is on the throne ( no longer at the right hand) as it is commonly taught - as Jesus has had the victory though many say…


Yes… but not yet rhetoric.
Its like today you choose your path, either with God and with God he can prune you back (teach you by the holy spirit), (to keep one from becoming prideful), or you without God and choose just to live by the knowledge of good and evil; just like in the garden with adam and eve.
 

CadyandZoe

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Predestination.

You have read Romans 9-11 yourself.
Sorry. Let me explain.

The term "Predestination" can be understood in more than one way. Does God preordain the destiny of select individuals such that these individuals believe in Jesus, persevere in belief, and attain to eternal life? Or does God preordain to grant eternal life to all those who believe in Jesus Christ, and persevere in belief?

Which one is your understanding?
 

MatthewG

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I trust God, in predestining and having elect people to come through israel to be part of the bride groom of Christ in his day, that is what I rely on, @CadyandZoe.

Just like when God set aside for himself 8000 people who never knelt to baal - the same thing happened after also in JEsus time.

Just go and read in Revelation 2-3 -... there are specific conditions they had to meet otherwise they were gonna die in the desturction on the judgement of Jerusalem - which all the tribes came to during the feastival time, and in 70AD 1,000,000 jews died.

I believe Jesus came through and those who were waiting and watching, just as those apostles encouraged, were taken and were the first bride groom of Christ and set up the Kingdom.




I am not gonna go based on whatever other people say about it, @CadyandZoe - I trust God over man...



This is an example


1 Thessalonians 1​

New International Version​

1 Paul, Silas[a] and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace to you.

Thanksgiving for the Thessalonians’ Faith​

2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
4 For we know, brothers and sisters[b] loved by God, that he has chosen you,



People still come into the Kingdom, but to pass it off "God has chosen you" ... then you are really disregarding the contextual narrative. Sorry, but that is what people tend to do, because they do not take the time to study.
 

MatthewG

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I trust God, in predestining and having elect people to come through israel to be part of the bride groom of Christ in his day, that is what I rely on, @CadyandZoe.

Just like when God set aside for himself 8000 people who never knelt to baal - the same thing happened after also in JEsus time.

Just go and read in Revelation 2-3 -... there are specific conditions they had to meet otherwise they were gonna die in the desturction on the judgement of Jerusalem - which all the tribes came to during the feastival time, and in 70AD 1,000,000 jews died.

I believe Jesus came through and those who were waiting and watching, just as those apostles encouraged, were taken and were the first bride groom of Christ and set up the Kingdom.




I am not gonna go based on whatever other people say about it, @CadyandZoe - I trust God over man...



This is an example






People still come into the Kingdom, but to pass it off "God has chosen you" ... then you are really disregarding the contextual narrative. Sorry, but that is what people tend to do, because they do not take the time to study.




These people in 1 Thessalonians were also told to watch and wait for Jesus was gonna come back....

The Apostles taught that Jesus was gonna come back...

and that people needed to be prepared and not be decieved by other things that came along the way.


Its really sad how much people just disregard these truths to self sooth or satisfy themselves in 'what they believe is right' well these guys were right... and not wrong.


people will look to CS LEWIS or other FAmous people... stop looking to them. Look to the source and really investigate.
 

MatthewG

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There are secular historians such as Josephus, Suetonius, Cassio Dio, and Tacticus, that all co-relate to JEsus and his promises of what he told his disciples who came and said "when will the end of this age happen and the coming of your kingdom be established" - in a sense, and he answered their question...

but people say nope, what he told those 4 was a lie.