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Free will vs Predestination

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by bruv, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You guys seem to be getting way off track Predestination vs Free willof course anyone thay doubts God dosent use time has never looked at numbers study but the thread is predestination vs freewill. And it is not true that we are all predestined only the Elect those that are choosen are predestined to a purpose.Otherwise free will doesnt really exist and it is the very reason we are here TO CHOOSEOF OUR OWN FREE WILL TO LOVE GOD Love is not love if it isnt given freelyThe whole Bible is about how and why we are to chose and Love the Lordto deny our free will to make this choice by saying all are predestined to be good or evil is blaspheme and demotes Gods plan and his word to some kind of pratical Joke.puts the blame for evil on God himself.And J.M. you are in error saying God created evil in the context you use it. It means God created Satan who is evil.
     
  2. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    (kriss;22846)
    And J.M. you are in error saying God created evil in the context you use it. It means God created Satan who is evil.
    You're playing word games. Please show me how you came to that understanding, that "it means God created Satan who is evil?" :angel9:
     
  3. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (J.M.;22924)
    (Kriss;22846)
    And J.M. you are in error saying God created evil in the context you use it. It means God created Satan who is evil.
    You're playing word games. Please show me how you came to that understanding, that "it means God created Satan who is evil?" :angel9:Is not Satan damned to death in the Lake of Fire? (Ezekiel 28:18)Is not Satan called the tree of knowledge of good and evil? (Genesis 2:9, Genesis 2:17)Is not Satan called Death? (Revelation 6:8)Is not Satan the first liar? (Genesis 3:1, John 8:44)JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour.
     
  4. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (J.M.;22924)
    You're playing word games. Please show me how you came to that understanding, that "it means God created Satan who is evil?" :angel9:
    If God predestined (or made) everyone to be either His followers or those who'd reject him (the wicked) - then He must've predestined (or made) Satan evil. Please correct me if I misunderstand what you mean by the word "predestined." I take it to mean that no one chooses God - (of their own free will) but rather, God decided in advance who would go to heaven & who would go to hell. It's not of their own choosing - but of God's. Therefore, Satan was created for Hell.
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    God didnt predestine everyone that is a false doctrine God can not create evil period thats something mislead men teach not God
     
  6. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    Is not Satan damned to death in the Lake of Fire? (Ezekiel 28:18)Is not Satan called the tree of knowledge of good and evil? (Genesis 2:9, Genesis 2:17)Is not Satan called Death? (Revelation 6:8)Is not Satan the first liar? (Genesis 3:1, John 8:44)JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour.
    Red herring.If God predestined (or made) everyone to be either His followers or those who'd reject him (the wicked) - then He must've predestined (or made) Satan evil.
    Please correct me if I misunderstand what you mean by the word "predestined." I take it to mean that no one chooses God - (of their own free will) but rather, God decided in advance who would go to heaven & who would go to hell. It's not of their own choosing - but of God's. Therefore, Satan was created for Hell.
    For clarity I use a quote: Foreknowledge vs. PredestinationSo what is predestination? Predestination is not foreknowledge. God's foreknowledge is that God knows everything before it happens. He knows in advance what is going to happen to everyone, both good and evil, both Christian and non-Christian. The Bible talks about God's foreknowledge in many places (Ps. 139:1-6; Romans 8:29a). But God's foreknowledge and God's predestination are two different things.Predestination was an act of God from eternity, before time began, by which God not only foreknew but actually chose some to be saved for all eternity (See Eph. 1:4-6). When God predestined us, He not only knew that we would be saved, He caused it to happen by His choice of us in Christ.
    God didnt predestine everyone that is a false doctrine God can not create evil period thats something mislead men teach not God
    Just saying so doesn't prove it...your statement is the equivalent of placing your fingers in your ears and saying, "la, la, la, la, la."
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You are so mislead havent you read God created Lucifer perfect he choose of his free will to rebell here let me show you in scripture of GodIsa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
     
  8. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    (kriss;22944)
    You are so mislead havent you read God created Lucifer perfect he choose of his free will to rebell here let me show you in scripture of GodIsa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    Satan was lost on purpose, nothing happens outside of God's plan...nothing. Did these folks have a choice?“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4.“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.We also see “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,” John 12:39, 40.“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,” John 9:39.“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,” Matt. 11:25.“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,” Matt. 7:6.“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,” Deut. 2:30.“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.” Joshua 11:20.“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,” Rom. 9:17(see also Ex. 9:16)We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17,he was lost for fulfill Scripture."... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ...""Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)I wonder why they were not to preach in Asia?jm
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    We are saved by the grace of Almighty God (Eph. 2:8*10). However, we accept this grace by our own faith, not because God forces us to accept it.
     
  10. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    I agree. Christ's sheep hear His voice [John 10] and come running!John 1:12-13 born (again) not by man's will, but God'sJohn 3:3-8 flesh begets flesh -Spirit begets Spirit wind/Spirit blows where it willTitus 3:5 according to his mercy - washing of regeneration1 Peter 1:3 Begotten according to God's mercy1 Peter 1:23 Born of incorruptible seed by Word of God1 John 5:4 Born of GodDeuteronomy 30:6 Lord himself circumcises our heartsEzekiel 36:26-27 The Lord gives anew heart and enables by his SpiritGalatians 6:15 Nothing we can do avails - only becoming a new creatureEphesians 2:10 We are created unto good works2 Corinthians 5:17-18 We are new creations - old passed, new comeJohn 5:21 The Son quickens whom he willEphesians 2:1,5 Quickened who were deadColossians 2:13 dead in sins; quickened by ChristMatthew 11:25-27 hid from wise - revealed to whom Christ willLuke 10:21 same as aboveMatthew 13:10-11 Given to some to understand - others are hardened.Luke 8:10 same as aboveMatthew 16:15-17 flesh and blood did not reveal -special blessednessJohn 6:37 all the Father gives shall comeJohn 6:44 No man can come except the Father draw him; and Christ will raise upJohn 6:45 everyone who has learned (been disciple) from the Father comesJohn 6:64 Jesus knew from the beginningJohn 6:65 no man can come1 Corinthians 2:14 natural man cannot know spiritual thingsEphesians 1:17-18 God gives spirit of wisdom - eyes of the understanding enlightened.Acts 5:31 Jesus gives repentance to IsraelActs 11:18 God has also granted repentance to the GentilesActs 13:48 As many as were ordained to eternal life believedActs 16:14 The Lord opened Lydia's heartActs 18:27 believed through grace Ephesians 2:8-9 faith a gift of godPhilippians 1:29 it is given to us to believe2 Timothy 2:25-26 God may give repentance to the acknowledging of the truth!
     
  11. wingnut

    wingnut New Member

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    Some folks like to claim God knows every detail of the future.Let's not go into the mechanism of how God can know the future.Ask them, "how far into the future does God know".They will glibly say, "the infinite future".But infinite means never ending - so how can one know "everything" when the future is ever-expanding. It's logically impossible.Then they say something like "with God all things are possible".So now they have accepted the unproven idea that one can be "outside of time".They have accepted the idea that one can know "everything" about an infinitely expanding future in which "knowing everything" is a logical impossibility.They have accepted a mechanistic universe, where we all are pawns - God too.If God were not a pawn, and actually did anything - it would change the pre-determinded future.They never think through the idea, that if the infinite future is already predetermined, that makes you an actor, playing out a pre-determined script, which you have to stick to or the future would not be pre-determined.On the other hand, how much easier to accept the idea that God lives in real-time (even though a thousand years is to him like a day).And in this view, God actually does give us real free-will with real choices.He interacts with us, answers prayer, blesses etc.Which makes the future open-ended and undetermined.And anything God wants to determine to happen, He has the power to make happen.Thus God is a Master-builder with a building in mind - but the details of the building process He works out in its own good time. In other words, God lives by his own maxim - take no thought for the morrow.
     
  12. BroDave

    BroDave New Member

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    In response:....(Peacebewithyou;22738)
    Hyjack this thread? I was discussing predestination vs. free will which IS the topic of the thread. [​IMG]Again, I ask you: What sort of LOVING God would predestin some of his children to spend an eternity in hell? According to you these ones were created for this very purpose - to spend an eternity being tormented in hell through no fault of their own - because how can they be faulted for not choosing God when He predestined them NOT to choose Him.I think you are making an error here in your question and understanding based on this error. God having the ability to look down through time can see who will and will not accept Jesus as their Savior. God does not make this determination, that free choice is left up to us. If you consider the fact that the Bible clearly states that those that are saved had their names written down in the Lamb's Book of Life BEFORE the foundation of the world. But you do raise a very important subject here. As a Christian I have ofter asked my wife why God would allow some to be born the when He can look down the passage of time and know before hand that that person will never come to salvation and then punish that person for that. I don't have an answer for you. But I responded here to point out that God did not predestine someone by His decision whether that person would or would not be saved. I guess perhaps a thread could be opened on whether one is eternally punished or destroyed at some point in the lake of fire. It is a subject that I must admitt I have never went very far with.That is NOT compatable with the God of the Bible. "For God so loved the WORLD (not just the ones he chose, but the entire WORLD) that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." God loves us all so much. He even loves those in hell and desired them to be saved, " 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." but he gave us all free will and they choose NOT to love Him back. There is a BIG difference between "knowing" the future (as God surely does) and CAUSING the future. Does God know who will choose to reject Him? Yes, of course. Did he "cause" them to reject Him? Not at all. It was their own choice.
     
  13. Wise Haven

    Wise Haven New Member

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    I think this is one of those topics that the bible cannot answer!Why?Because it is one of those things that man cannot (at this present time and in the past)understand and was not meant to comprehend.Why would God predestine someone to be evil?I do not think God would pre -ordain that, but would forsee that it is a possibility and therefore have fore knowledge of that (and all other limitless possibilites)permutations.Don't forget that we think in a purely linear way.....event, causes reaction ,causes reaction.God is not linear or confined by time therefore can give humanity freewill but at the same time foretell every possible outcome that may result from that freedom.Does this make sense?
     
  14. wingnut

    wingnut New Member

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    (Wise Haven;22982)
    I think this is one of those topics that the bible cannot answer!Why?Because it is one of those things that man cannot (at this present time and in the past)understand and was not meant to comprehend.Why would God predestine someone to be evil?I do not think God would pre -ordain that, but would forsee that it is a possibility and therefore have fore knowledge of that (and all other limitless possibilites)permutations.Don't forget that we think in a purely linear way.....event, causes reaction ,causes reaction.God is not linear or confined by time therefore can give humanity freewill but at the same time foretell every possible outcome that may result from that freedom.Does this make sense?
    The moment God gives us free-will, that means we can choose to get out of bed today, or not. If we get out of bed, we may meet new people, change them somehow etc. Pretty soon the permutations become, as you say "limitless". I think its logically impossible to work out limitless permutations (especially if you add to that permutations into the limitless future). I also ask myself "why would God need to do so?" If God lives from day to day like us, and has an overall purpose which nobody can thwart, no matter what they do with their free will - I choose this simpler belief. (And it also passes the Ockhams razor test that the simplest explanation is probably the correct one).
     
  15. cooolway

    cooolway New Member

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    There are 4 dimensions in this universe, x, y, z, and time. The almighty God(Allah) is not restricted within these dimensions, since he created them.So he knows the future past and present.To me, the question "where did God come from?" are valid because I don't think that it implies God is restricted by time. I am not asking when, just how and where.
    The Bible tells us that God created the wicked for the day of destruction.
    Why? Islam doesn't us that. Sure, the Noble Quran tells us materials such as:6:Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.7:Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.8:And of mankind, there are some (hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.9:They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!10:In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies.11:And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peacemakers."12:Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.13:And when it is said to them (hypocrites): "Believe as the people (followers of Muhammad Peace be upon him , Al-Ansar and Al-Muhajirun) have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not. 2:6-13but it means who look at Islam and choose to disbelieve, not born disbelievers.
     
  16. wingnut

    wingnut New Member

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    (cooolway;23109)
    There are 4 dimensions in this universe, x, y, z, and time. The almighty God(Allah) is not restricted within these dimensions, since he created them.So he knows the future past and present.
    While it is true that God created the 4 dimensions - you cannot say that these did not exist before the Big Bang. Science cannot tell us what happened before the Creation. But the Bible does. And it says time existed - but not in those exact words.God created the angelic beings before the universe. They witnessed the birth of the universe. But the very fact that there was a time before the angelic host existed, and a time after they were created - shows there was a before and after, cause and effect - only possible if there is time. And if Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, this tells us there was a time this was decided before the universe/world was created. Again, if there is a before - this is a word indicating time existed.Since we have no concept of existence without time - we should stop assuming this kind of existence even exists. And even if it did - that also does not automatically mean that God can live in the future. Nothing we know in our reality lives in the future - so this is just an unproven assumption. And it is not even as if the Bible claims that God lives in the future like we live in the present. This is a philosophical construct - which also happens to be logically impossible. One cannot be in 3 dimensions of time simultaneously - because simultaneously implies same time - and these are different times.
     
  17. BroDave

    BroDave New Member

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    Coolway, you have posted things that have nothing to do with the thread. You are trying to convey with what you posted that those that do not accept Islam will not be in good favor with god (Allah). This is not the conversation. We are talking about those spoken of in the Bible that are not saved and why God of the Bible would create them in the first place just to turn around and punish them eternally. As we Christians look at this subject, you not being a Christian I am assuming, are among those that will suffer eternally when judgement day comes. You can correct this at any time in your life by simply realizing that Jesus Christ is the true Savior of the world, and that He died for your sins as well. You need only call upon Him to save you and cleanse you of all unrighteousness and to accept His sacrafice on the cross that paid the penality for our sins that we cannot pay ourselves. So when you jump into a conversation among Christians speaking of the true God, keep in mind that we are not speaking of Allah, but the God of the Bible.[​IMG]
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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  19. Thunder1

    Thunder1 New Member

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    God knows the future, but He has given us free will to choose. He did not make us robots. You choose His way or devil's way- heaven or hell. When you choose His way, He loves to bless you.. And He has good plan for your life, you just need to receive Jesus, the Saviour into your heart first.
     
  20. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (Thunder1;28224)
    God knows the future, but He has given us free will to choose. He did not make us robots. You choose His way or devil's way- heaven or hell. When you choose His way, He loves to bless you.. And He has good plan for your life, you just need to receive Jesus, the Saviour into your heart first.
    And there you have it folks.In a nutshell. [​IMG]
     
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