"Free" Will

[Nomad]

Jesus died for SIN, not people.

You're half right.

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

We are born INTO a sinful world, we are not born sinners. We may develop the propensity to sin but that is another issue.

That is incorrect.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[StanJ]

You're half right.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,



That is incorrect.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Because of SIN Nomad. Personalizing it for people doesn't change the facts. He didn't just die for people that are his sheep, He died for all sin which includes those that don't confess Him as their savior. Not surprising you would contradict your own TULIP doctrine just to disagree with me.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Paul in Ephesians is talking about effectual death versus actual death, and to adults, not to children or babies. Spirits are not dead and never die, nor are they born WITH sin, they are born into sin.
Matthew 18:3
“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Obviously Jesus knew little children were not born sinners.

 

[Nomad]

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

First, if Christ died for everyone without exception then everyone without exception would be saved. The problem with this is that only those who are granted faith and repentance will come to Christ, as I've proven here many times before. There's no need or Christ to die for those whom God has not chosen. Now let's look at your misunderstood text.

"World" has many meanings in Scripture. It rarely means everyone exhaustively and without exception. Even today, in modern English, we rarely if ever use it that way. "World" in your proof text means mankind in general. That is, people from every tribe, tongue, and nation just like we see in Revelation. Every tribe, tongue and nation = the world. I refer you to definition #8 below.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

κόσμος
kosmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)

Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from the base of G2865
Citing in TDNT: 3:868, 459

BTW, I invite you to show me how I contradicted TULIP in my previous post.

 

[StanJ]

First, if Christ died for everyone without exception then everyone without exception would be saved. The problem with this is that only those who are granted faith and repentance will come to Christ, as I've proven here many times before. There's no need or Christ to die for those whom God has not chosen. Now let's look at your misunderstood text.

"World" has many meanings in Scripture. It rarely means everyone exhaustively and without exception. Even today, in modern English, we rarely if ever use it that way. "World" in your proof text means mankind in general. That is, people from every tribe, tongue, and nation just like we see in Revelation. Every tribe, tongue and nation = the world. I refer you to definition #8 below.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

κόσμος
kosmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)

Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from the base of G2865
Citing in TDNT: 3:868, 459

BTW, I invite you to show me how I contradicted TULIP in my previous post.

I never said Christ died for everyone without exception. That is your doctrinal ears hearing and not your spiritual ears.
I said Christ died for ALL sin and so does the Bible. The fact is you do not accept that because it would negate your belief in Election.
RT does believe that Jesus died for ALL sin, but that God elects those who are saved.

 

[Nomad]

RT does believe that Jesus died for ALL sin, but that God elects those who are saved.

Wrong.

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Chapter 11: Of Justification

4. God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.
( Galatians 3:8; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Timothy 2:6; Romans 4:25; Colossians 1:21,22; Titus 3:4-7 )

 

[StanJ]

Wrong.

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Chapter 11: Of Justification

4. God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.
( Galatians 3:8; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Timothy 2:6; Romans 4:25; Colossians 1:21,22; Titus 3:4-7 )

Well I was referring to TULIP and not Baptist doctrine, but in any event, this does go against 1 John 2:2....funny how you can't see that.
John reiterates this again in 4:10;
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Instead of continually throwing other verses at the issue, maybe you should deal with the ones that have already been quoted here.
I can give you others, but I doubt you will address them.
Jesus died for all people.

• Luke 19:10. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
• John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
• Romans 5:18. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
• 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15. "For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."
• 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all…"
• 1 Timothy 4:10. "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
• Hebrews 2:9. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

Anyway you slice it, Jesus died for ALL sin and ALL men.

 

[williemac]

Well I was referring to TULIP and not Baptist doctrine, but in any event, this does go against 1 John 2:2....funny how you can't see that.
John reiterates this again in 4:10;
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Instead of continually throwing other verses at the issue, maybe you should deal with the ones that have already been quoted here.
I can give you others, but I doubt you will address them.
Jesus died for all people.

• Luke 19:10. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
• John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
• Romans 5:18. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
• 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15. "For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."
• 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all…"
• 1 Timothy 4:10. "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
• Hebrews 2:9. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

Anyway you slice it, Jesus died for ALL sin and ALL men.

Just jumping in with some info concerning your mention of John 12:32. The word "peoples", or in other translations "men", is inserted by the translators. They did not do this covertly but announced their deed by puting the word in italics. This is thier way of indicating an inserted word. Thus they have made that sentence a matter of interpretation and not just translation. It was their attempt to make sense of the verse. However it makes perfect sense without the inserted word, if one reads it together with the previous verse. " Now is the judgment of this world....." He then states He would draw all to Himself. All what? All judgement. Not all peoples. The meaning changes dramatically without the inserted word.
As for your comment that Jesus died for all sin and all men, I do not disagree. However, in 2Cor.5:19,20, we see an important condition pointed out by Paul. We can see in that passage the world being reconciled to God by the sacrifice of Jesus and then we see God pleading with the world to respond to it. This, if the inserted word in John 12 is correct, is how men are drawn: by the preaching of the gospel.

As for the OP title.... I do not like the term "free will" so much, as there is no real agreed upon application of it in these kinds of discussions. Be that as it may, without looking back at your replies, I don't know your full position on this subject. But I will add that mankind has the wonderful ability to have relationship and fellowship. This ability requires that one must be able to appreciate it. For those universalist and hyper/Calvinist thinkers, I would argue that thier perspective doctrines remove this important aspect of relationship, making it a matter of automatic programming from God rather than a matter of willingness from the individual. So, for the lack of a better term, "free will" is part and parcel of our experience with God and with one another.

How is God going to appreciate the returned love from a person He manipulated into it without thier consent or knowledge? A question to who it may concern.

 

[StanJ]

Just jumping in with some info concerning your mention of John 12:32. The word "peoples", or in other translations "men", is inserted by the translators. They did not do this covertly but announced their deed by puting the word in italics. This is thier way of indicating an inserted word. Thus they have made that sentence a matter of interpretation and not just translation. It was their attempt to make sense of the verse. However it makes perfect sense without the inserted word, if one reads it together with the previous verse. " Now is the judgment of this world....." He then states He would draw all to Himself. All what? All judgement. Not all peoples. The meaning changes dramatically without the inserted word.
As for your comment that Jesus died for all sin and all men, I do not disagree. However, in 2Cor.5:19,20, we see an important condition pointed out by Paul. We can see in that passage the world being reconciled to God by the sacrifice of Jesus and then we see God pleading with the world to respond to it. This, if the inserted word in John 12 is correct, is how men are drawn: by the preaching of the gospel.

As for the OP title.... I do not like the term "free will" so much, as there is no real agreed upon application of it in these kinds of discussions. Be that as it may, without looking back at your replies, I don't know your full position on this subject. But I will add that mankind has the wonderful ability to have relationship and fellowship. This ability requires that one must be able to appreciate it. For those universalist and hyper/Calvinist thinkers, I would argue that thier perspective doctrines remove this important aspect of relationship, making it a matter of automatic programming from God rather than a matter of willingness from the individual. So, for the lack of a better term, "free will" is part and parcel of our experience with God and with one another.

How is God going to appreciate the returned love from a person He manipulated into it without thier consent or knowledge? A question to who it may concern.

As to John 12:32 you can read what Mounce has to say HERE.
The Father draws us by means He sees fit, including His written Word as shown in John 20:31
Free will in THESE kind of discussions, always connotes the ability to choose, which is what Jesus came to earth to convey.
The term universalists is always thrown around by Calvinists and is a straw man. Unlimited Atonement is more apt and accurately reflects what the NT teaches.

 

[Jun2u]

StanJ, Post #166 said:

And I quote:

“Not CAN Jun2u, DID. He died for ALL sin. That is the redemption. Salvation is accepting that Jesus did that and that He is our savior.

God forgives our sins when we confess His son as our savior. 1 John 1:9. Jesus paid the price for those sins on the cross. Jesus didn’t die for sinners, He died for sin. The gift of God’s son as our redeemer has to be accepted in order for our sins to be forgiven.”

Yes Jesus died for sins. But I beg to differ. He did not die for the sins of everyone. This is a concept but for a few who do not understand that if Jesus died for the sins of each and everyone in the world, rightly then, there should no one be in hell. In truth, He sacrificed His life only for all those whom He had planned to save before the foundation of the world, but NEVER for the sins of everyone. This is not taught anywhere in Scripture! It is our understanding that is faulty.

John the Baptist knew this as he declared and pointed to the Lord Jesus, “behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world.” This verse does not imply He died for the sins of everyone rather in all the world He is the only one who has the power to take away sins.

Most people would probably referenced I Corinthians 15:22, and although the first “all” MEAN “each and everyone,” the second “all” cannot MEAN the same for if this was the case, there should no one be under judgment and everyone will go into heaven. However, the Bible says that hell will heavily be populated.

Salvation can NEVER be just “accepting or believing” in Jesus. If this was true, let me ask you, what part of Romans 3:10-12 did you NOT understand that “there is none righteous NO NOT ONE and that no one SEEKS after God.”

If the above is God’s assessment of the human race, who then can “accept and believe in Jesus?” No one, not even you!

AND

John 6:44
“No one “CAN” (have the power) come to me unless the Father “draw” (a strong word to mean, kicking and screaming) him.”

“Kicking and screaming” is a very forceful phrase that is likened unto a man who does not wish to become saved but will become saved by the drawing power of God. It has the same concept as the “potter and clay” and Romans 3 above.

By rights, we are all covenant breakers and except by God’s mercy and love, we are destined for hell!

Many are called and few are chosen. Who does the choosing? Certainly not man!

Those then who believe that you must accept and believe in Jesus in order to become saved truly have no idea or understanding about the Gospel of Salvation according to the Bible.

No one can ever understand the deeper meaning of scriptures by reading the Bible literally. The Bible is a spiritual as well as a historical book it must, therefore, be read and understood spiritually.

Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak, so that those who have eyes cannot perceive and those who have ears cannot understand. This principle shines throughout the whole Bible.

Again, it bears repeating that those who believe you must accept and believe in Jesus (a work that man performs and contrary to Eph. 2:9) to become saved have a man-made gospel. You are without excuse. The Gospel according to the Bible has been preached unto you.

It’s beginning to be realized how the conclusion of Mt 7:22-23 is coming to fruition.

To God Be The Glory

P.S. I’ve just read your post and your text reference 1 John 2:2
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the sins
of the whole world”.

Interpretation:

John in his epistle was speaking to his fellow Jews and stated that Jesus is also the propitiation for sins to those whom He elected that are scattered in the world, just as Nomad alluded to in Revelation 5:9.

Again, and I say this kindly, no one will understand the deeper meaning of Bible verses by reading them literally or casually.

 

[StanJ]

StanJ, Post #166 said:

And I quote:

“Not CAN Jun2u, DID. He died for ALL sin. That is the redemption. Salvation is accepting that Jesus did that and that He is our savior.

God forgives our sins when we confess His son as our savior. 1 John 1:9. Jesus paid the price for those sins on the cross. Jesus didn’t die for sinners, He died for sin. The gift of God’s son as our redeemer has to be accepted in order for our sins to be forgiven.”

Yes Jesus died for sins. But I beg to differ. He did not die for the sins of everyone. This is a concept but for a few who do not understand that if Jesus died for the sins of each and everyone in the world, rightly then, there should no one be in hell. In truth, He sacrificed His life only for all those whom He had planned to save before the foundation of the world, but NEVER for the sins of everyone. This is not taught anywhere in Scripture! It is our understanding that is faulty.

John the Baptist knew this as he declared and pointed to the Lord Jesus, “behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world.” This verse does not imply He died for the sins of everyone rather in all the world He is the only one who has the power to take away sins.

Most people would probably referenced I Corinthians 15:22, and although the first “all” MEAN “each and everyone,” the second “all” cannot MEAN the same for if this was the case, there should no one be under judgment and everyone will go into heaven. However, the Bible says that hell will heavily be populated.

Salvation can NEVER be just “accepting or believing” in Jesus. If this was true, let me ask you, what part of Romans 3:10-12 did you NOT understand that “there is none righteous NO NOT ONE and that no one SEEKS after God.”

If the above is God’s assessment of the human race, who then can “accept and believe in Jesus?” No one, not even you!

AND

John 6:44
“No one “CAN” (have the power) come to me unless the Father “draw” (a strong word to mean, kicking and screaming) him.”

“Kicking and screaming” is a very forceful phrase that is likened unto a man who does not wish to become saved but will become saved by the drawing power of God. It has the same concept as the “potter and clay” and Romans 3 above.

By rights, we are all covenant breakers and except by God’s mercy and love, we are destined for hell!

Many are called and few are chosen. Who does the choosing? Certainly not man!

Those then who believe that you must accept and believe in Jesus in order to become saved truly have no idea or understanding about the Gospel of Salvation according to the Bible.

No one can ever understand the deeper meaning of scriptures by reading the Bible literally. The Bible is a spiritual as well as a historical book it must, therefore, be read and understood spiritually.

Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak, so that those who have eyes cannot perceive and those who have ears cannot understand. This principle shines throughout the whole Bible.

Again, it bears repeating that those who believe you must accept and believe in Jesus (a work that man performs and contrary to Eph. 2:9) to become saved have a man-made gospel. You are without excuse. The Gospel according to the Bible has been preached unto you.

It’s beginning to be realized how the conclusion of Mt 7:22-23 is coming to fruition.

To God Be The Glory

P.S. I’ve just read your post and your text reference 1 John 2:2
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the sins
of the whole world”.

Interpretation:

John in his epistle was speaking to his fellow Jews and stated that Jesus is also the propitiation for sins to those whom He elected that are scattered in the world, just as Nomad alluded to in Revelation 5:9.

Again, and I say this kindly, no one will understand the deeper meaning of Bible verses by reading them literally or casually.

I suggest you read ALL my posts in this thread first then quote them, using this sites quote features, to comment on them. I've pretty much refuted your position already.

 

[Nomad]

Well I was referring to TULIP and not Baptist doctrine,

The 1689 London Baptist Confession is a Reformed confession. What I quoted is representative of the "L" in TULIP. The 1689 LBC is no different than any other Reformed confession on Limited Atonement. So your assertion that "RT does believe that Jesus died for ALL sin" is absurd.

but in any event, this does go against 1 John 2:2....funny how you can't see that.
John reiterates this again in 4:10;
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

I've already answered 1 John 2:2 quite clearly. It's there if you need to read it again. As for 1 John 4:10, the phrase "for our sins" doesn't support your view in the least. John was writing to professing believers, not the world in general. Anyone reading 1 John can plainly see this. Had you bothered to read more than your proof text you would have seen that too.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Instead of continually throwing other verses at the issue, maybe you should deal with the ones that have already been quoted here.
I can give you others, but I doubt you will address them.
Jesus died for all people.

• Luke 19:10. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
• John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
• Romans 5:18. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
• 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15. "For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."
• 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all…"
• 1 Timothy 4:10. "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
• Hebrews 2:9. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

Anyway you slice it, Jesus died for ALL sin and ALL men.

You doubt that I will address your proof texts? That's amusing in light of the fact that you ignored the texts that I p9sted yesterday. Here they are again:

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

It looks like the NT contradicts itself, but it doesn't. The problem here is your lack of attention to context and your forced definition of "all." I proved that "world" doesn't mean everyone without exception. The same holds true for "all" in your proof texts. Let's establish the semantic range of "all" and then we can look at your texts in context.

πᾶς
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795

"All" can mean "some of all types." "World" can mean "any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort." in other words, Jews and Gentiles or some from every tribe, tongue and nation." If you insist on your forced definition of either of these words, the contradictions are unresolvable. Now for your proof texts:

Luke 19:10 - I have no idea why you posted this one. It proves nothing in this discussion.

John 12:32 - All men in this case refers to Jews and Gentiles as in "some of all types." The occasion was the coming of some Gentiles to see Jesus. Jesus' response was that the hour had come for him to be glorified and it culminated with the statement that he would draw all men to himself. Again, all = world = Jews and Gentiles = some from every tribe, tongue and nation.

Romans 5:18 - You obviously didn't think this one through. If "all men" means everyone without exception as you believe then this verse teaches universalism. If your understanding is correct, this verse doesn't just prove universal atonement, it proves universal justification and life for all men without exception. I'll let you think about this one before I say any more about it.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

2 Corinthians 5:14 &15 - "All" here is limited to "those who live" in verse 15. Read carefully:

2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

When we see the word "all" we have to ask ourselves, all of what or all of who? Does the surrounding context tell us? Verse 15 says that Christ died "for their sake." Whose sake? "Those who live." Again, if you insist that "all" means everyone without exception then verse 14 teaches universalism. If all without exception died with Christ as you would have verse 14 teach, then all without exception reap the benefits of his death and resurrection.

1 Timothy 2:5 & 6 - You've created another contradiction:

Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

So how do we reconcile this contradiction? We read "all" with the proper definition in mind. "All" here refers to Jews and Gentiles collectively. How do I know this. I read verse 7.

1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 - If "all men" means everyone without exception as you would have it, then one again we have a verse that teaches universalism. The verse does not say that God is the potential savior of all men, it says that God is the savior of all men -- especially those who believe. Your understanding of "all" gives us not only universalism, it also teaches that believers are "especially" saved -- whatever that means.

Hebrews 2:9 - Who is "everyone?" Again, you need to read your proof texts in context. "Everyone" refers to those who are saved.

Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Heb 2:11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,
Heb 2:12 saying, "I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."
Heb 2:13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me."

 

[StanJ]

The 1689 London Baptist Confession is a Reformed confession. What I quoted is representative of the "L" in TULIP. The 1689 LBC is no different than any other Reformed confession on Limited Atonement. So your assertion that "RT does believe that Jesus died for ALL sin" is absurd.

and yet Calvin's own words refute your assertion.

[SIZE=12pt]Mark 14:24. “This is my blood.” I have already warned, when the blood is said to be poured out (as in Matthew) for the remission of sins, how in these words we are directed to the sacrifice of Christ’s death, and to neglect this thought makes any due celebration of the Supper impossible. In no other way can faithful souls be satisfied, if they cannot believe that God is pleased in their regard. The word many does not mean a part of the world only, but the whole human race: he contrasts many with one, as if to say that he would not be the redeemer of one man, but would meet death to deliver many of their cursed guilt. It is incontestable that Christ came for the expiation of the sins of the whole world.[/SIZE]

I've already answered 1 John 2:2 quite clearly. It's there if you need to read it again. As for 1 John 4:10, the phrase "for our sins" doesn't support your view in the least. John was writing to professing believers, not the world in general. Anyone reading 1 John can plainly see this. Had you bothered to read more than your proof text you would have seen that too.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

It's where Nomad?
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Regardless of who you equivocate that John is writing to, they are believers, and Christ not only died for their sin but for the sins of the WHOLE world as confirmed and stated here, AND in John 3:16-21.

You talk about context yet ignore v7-9;
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

You doubt that I will address your proof texts? That's amusing in light of the fact that you ignored the texts that I posted yesterday. Here they are again:

It looks like the NT contradicts itself, but it doesn't. The problem here is your lack of attention to context and your forced definition of "all." I proved that "world" doesn't mean everyone without exception. The same holds true for "all" in your proof texts. Let's establish the semantic range of "all" and then we can look at your texts in context.

πᾶς
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795

"All" can mean "some of all types." "World" can mean "any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort." in other words, Jews and Gentiles or some from every tribe, tongue and nation." If you insist on your forced definition of either of these words, the contradictions are unresolvable. Now for your proof texts:

I didn't ignore them, which show you don't really read what I post. I said, "Because of SIN Nomad. Personalizing it for people doesn't change the facts. He didn't just die for people that are his sheep, He died for all sin which includes those that don't confess Him as their savior. Not surprising you would contradict your own TULIP doctrine just to disagree with me."

I wouldn't concern yourself with trying to explain Greek when you have a problem reading the English translation in proper context. In the context of the verses I quoted, WORLD mean ALL humanity. Why you are diverting to ALL is beyond me?

 

[Nomad]

and yet Calvin's own words refute your assertion.

[SIZE=12pt]Mark 14:24. “This is my blood.” I have already warned, when the blood is said to be poured out (as in Matthew) for the remission of sins, how in these words we are directed to the sacrifice of Christ’s death, and to neglect this thought makes any due celebration of the Supper impossible. In no other way can faithful souls be satisfied, if they cannot believe that God is pleased in their regard. The word many does not mean a part of the world only, but the whole human race: he contrasts many with one, as if to say that he would not be the redeemer of one man, but would meet death to deliver many of their cursed guilt. It is incontestable that Christ came for the expiation of the sins of the whole world.[/SIZE]

What a red herring! LOL Unfortunately, you operate under a huge misunderstanding regarding Reformation history. It's no secret that for centuries much controversy surrounds Calvin's view of the extent of the atonement. Sometimes he sounds like he advocates limited atonement and sometimes he sounds like he advocates universal atonement. Regardless, Reformed theology has landed firmly on the side of limited atonement as seen in Reformed confessions, systematic theology and the findings of the Council of Dordt.

You need to understand that Calvin is not the be all to end all in Reformed theology. You will be hard pressed to find anyone who walks in absolute lockstep with everything Calvin taught. Reformed Baptists, like myself, disagree with Calvin's teaching on paedobaptism. I disagree with some of what he taught on the Lord's Supper. Calvin was a brilliant theologian, but Scripture is the final court of appeal for all matters of faith and practice, not John Calvin. That has been a central tenet of the Reformed faith from the beginning. So you can wipe that smug look off your face. Your little potshot was born out of ignorance and nothing but a waste of time.

 

[StanJ]

Luke 19:10 - I have no idea why you posted this one. It proves nothing in this discussion.

John 12:32 - All men in this case refers to Jews and Gentiles as in "some of all types." The occasion was the coming of some Gentiles to see Jesus. Jesus' response was that the hour had come for him to be glorified and it culminated with the statement that he would draw all men to himself. Again, all = world = Jews and Gentiles = some from every tribe, tongue and nation.

Romans 5:18 - You obviously didn't think this one through. If "all men" means everyone without exception as you believe then this verse teaches universalism. If your understanding is correct, this verse doesn't just prove universal atonement, it proves universal justification and life for all men without exception. I'll let you think about this one before I say any more about it.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

2 Corinthians 5:14 &15 - "All" here is limited to "those who live" in verse 15. Read carefully:

2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

When we see the word "all" we have to ask ourselves, all of what or all of who? Does the surrounding context tell us? Verse 15 says that Christ died "for their sake." Whose sake? "Those who live." Again, if you insist that "all" means everyone without exception then verse 14 teaches universalism. If all without exception died with Christ as you would have verse 14 teach, then all without exception reap the benefits of his death and resurrection.

1 Timothy 2:5 & 6 - You've created another contradiction:

Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

So how do we reconcile this contradiction? We read "all" with the proper definition in mind. "All" here refers to Jews and Gentiles collectively. How do I know this. I read verse 7.

1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 - If "all men" means everyone without exception as you would have it, then one again we have a verse that teaches universalism. The verse does not say that God is the potential savior of all men, it says that God is the savior of all men -- especially those who believe. Your understanding of "all" gives us not only universalism, it also teaches that believers are "especially" saved -- whatever that means.

Hebrews 2:9 - Who is "everyone?" Again, you need to read your proof texts in context. "Everyone" refers to those who are saved.

Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Heb 2:11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,
Heb 2:12 saying, "I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."
Heb 2:13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me."

I posted:
Jesus died for all people.

• Luke 19:10. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." ( ALL people are lost)
• John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."(Yes, ALL peoples, as opposed to only some peoples)
• Romans 5:18. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."(It does not teach universalism, but universal atonement)
• 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15. "For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again." (ALL is ALL and to LIVE is Christ)
• 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all…"( The contradiction exists between your POV and scripture, NOT mine. There is no contradiction in scripture. ALL is ALL)
• 1 Timothy 4:10. "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."(again you equivocate on Paul's word's instead of accepting them. ALL I did was quote them. Jesus can only BE your savior if you accept His sacrifice and claim Him as such.)
• Hebrews 2:9. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."( Everyone is everyone...Luke didn't need to qualify something he plainly states. Only you and your ilk equivocate about the plain connotation.)

 

[Nomad]

WORLD mean ALL humanity. Why you are diverting to ALL is beyond me?

Then you're left with all of the contradictions and universalism proof text your view creates. Good luck with that.

 

[StanJ]

What a red herring! LOL Unfortunately, you operate under a huge misunderstanding regarding Reformation history. It's no secret that for centuries much controversy surrounds Calvin's view of the extent of the atonement. Sometimes he sounds like he advocates limited atonement and sometimes he sounds like he advocates universal atonement. Regardless, Reformed theology has landed firmly on the side of limited atonement as seen in Reformed confessions, systematic theology and the findings of the Council of Dordt.

You need to understand that Calvin is not the be all to end all in Reformed theology. You will be hard pressed to find anyone who walks in absolute lockstep with everything Calvin taught. Reformed Baptists, like myself, disagree with Calvin's teaching on paedobaptism. I disagree with some of what he taught on the Lord's Supper. Calvin was a brilliant theologian, but Scripture is the final court of appeal for all matters of faith and practice, not John Calvin. That has been a central tenet of the Reformed faith from the beginning. So you can wipe that smug look off your face. Your little pot shot was born out of ignorance and nothing but a waste of time.

Not at all...I operate under the view that those who call themselves Calvinist, follow Calvin. Calvin said this did he not?
Calvinists argue among themselves all the time about their own doctrine, hence why there are 1,2 3 4 and 5 point Calvinists. I don't argue under a man-made doctrinal flag, I argue what the scripture says. If you don't want to be labeled as a Calvinist then stop using the label. I'm more than happy to get rid of Jean Cauvin in discussions and deal with the RT label.

YOU need to understand that I completely understand this whole issue. So you can either deal with the issues that come up scripturally and stop hiding under someone else's umbrella, or deal with the inconsistencies of your own self labelling.
Cauvin was a humanist lawyer who rebelled against the RCC and his experience of indoctrination into it. No wonder his doctrine is confused, he was.

These kind of petty insults just contradict what you sign your posts with, as I don't see ANY difference between you and other Calvinists I have deal with in the past.
You write: Want solid Biblical answers without all of the usual nastiness, mud slinging and straw-man portraits of Reformed Theology found in public forums? Then ask a Calvinist., but are obviously not able to do so.

Then you're left with all of the contradictions and universalism proof text your view creates. Good luck with that.

No contradictions at all, and Universal Atonement is NOT universalism. You need to learn the difference and stop with the straw man tactics.

 

[Nomad]

I'm more than happy to get rid of Jean Cauvin in discussions and deal with the RT label.

You're the only one tossing John Calvin's name around. I neither mention him nor quote his writings.

If you don't want to be labeled as a Calvinist then stop using the label.

I agree with Calvin 95% of the time so the label is appropriate. Thanks for you concern.

These kind of petty insults just contradict what you sign your posts with, as I don't see ANY difference between you and other Calvinists I have deal with in the past.
You write: Want solid Biblical answers without all of the usual nastiness, mud slinging and straw-man portraits of Reformed Theology found in public forums? Then ask a Calvinist., but are obviously not able to do so.

That invitation is for private correspondence with those who want a civil discussion about Reformed Theology, even if they disagree. I've been doing this for years with no problem whatsoever. Then there are people like you who aren't capable of an honest and civil discussion. So be it.

 

[StanJ]

You're the only one tossing John Calvin's name around. I neither mention him nor quote his writings.


That invitation is for private correspondence with those who want a civil discussion about Reformed Theology, even if they disagree. I've been doing this for years with no problem whatsoever. Then there are people like you who aren't capable of an honest and civil discussion. So be it.

I guess you are making my point then.

Hey I have no problem with honest nor civil Nomad. You reap what you sow. This is exactly what your kind of condescending style generates, hostility.
If you can't do it publically I can't see you being able to do it privately.

 

[shturt678]

Jesus died for SIN, not people. That is called redemption. Once we accept and acknowledge that redemption, we are saved. Many will be saved and many will enter the wide gate into hell so it does depend on the context of the scripture being read.

We are born INTO a sinful world, we are not born sinners. We may develop the propensity to sin but that is another issue.

What Paul is speaking about IN CONTEXT in Phil 2:10-11 is the great white throne judgment. Jesus IS LORD even if He is not OUR Lord.

The rest of your conclusion is based on faulty exegesis. Today is the day of salvation, today the Word of Life is near you. Nobody gets saved after they die.

Thank you for caring again brother Stan!

Only a head's up, we were even formed in the womb as sinners. However you're correct, Jesus was made sin for us, and made a curse for us...thank you Jesus.

Old Jack getting rid of that sinful self.

 

[StanJ]

Thank you for caring again brother Stan!

Only a head's up, we were even formed in the womb as sinners. However you're correct, Jesus was made sin for us, and made a curse for us...thank you Jesus.

Old Jack getting rid of that sinful self.

Glad you recognize that I do Jack.

I think I know what verse you are alluding to, but please clarify where the scripture says we are formed in the womb as sinners?