"Free" Will

[StanJ]

The problem with that is if God looked down at the “corridor of life” (if there is such a thing), He will see nothing but reprobate humans sold to sin that are marching towards the slaughter house and that there will no one be saved because God knows there is none righteous no not one and there is none that seeks after Him.

But we praise God because of His love and mercy for wanting to have a people for Himself, that He paid a tremendous price by sending His Son to die on behalf of His elect.

Thank you for pointing out my error. It should have been written, “I'd rather be a robot and be saved than have brains and end up under damnation.

To God Be The Glory

Sorry I was out of this thread for a while.

Jesus died for sin. Rom 6:10, Heb 9:28, 1 Peter 3:18.... He didn't die for the elect or robots.

I do seem to recall I dealt with this "corridor of life" metaphor. God doesn't look down a corridor, as He does not exist within nor is He subject to time.

 

[Nomad]

Jesus died for sin. Rom 6:10, Heb 9:28, 1 Peter 3:18....

Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

Your first text does not support your contention. The prepositions "for" and "to" do not mean the same thing.

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Again, this text does not support your contention. This verse says plainly that Christ was offered once to bear the sins of "many." Are you sure that you want to employ this verse?

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit...

A Universalist would be quite proud of your misinterpretation of this verse. I'll give you a hint. You're either ignoring or you're unaware of the "hina" clause in the last half of your text. Once understood, this is a great Calvinist proof -text.

I do seem to recall I dealt with this "corridor of life" metaphor. God doesn't look down a corridor, as He does not exist within nor is He subject to time.

"Looking down the corridor of time" is the standard "Arminian" view of God's foreknowledge. If you have another view, explain it to us.

 

[StanJ]

Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
Your first text does not support your contention. The prepositions "for" and "to" do not mean the same thing.

"Looking down the corridor of time" is the standard "Arminian" view of God's foreknowledge. If you have another view, explain it to us.

[/QUOTE]Despite your equivocation about a word, you obviously don't understand what this means. That is clear based on you not pointing out the same thing in "to" God.
From the whole scope of the apostle's discourse, it is plain that he considers the death of Christ as a death or sacrifice for sin; a sin-offering: in this sense no man has ever died for sin, or ever can die.(Clarke)
He died unto sin - His death had respect to sin. The design of his death was to destroy sin; to make an atonement for it, and thus to put it away.(Barnes)

As far as Heb 9:28, He died for the sin, not the many. Redemption does not equate to salvation.
This is a standard RT ploy to divert the issue by employing a straw man. I suggest you look up the real meaning of Universalism. It does NOT mean what you imply here that it does. What is clear to me in 1 Peter 3:18 is exactly what Jesus taught in John 3:16-18.
As I stated I have already dealt with the time issue on this thread, and I am NOT Arminian, I am a Christian. I don't label myself with man-made doctrines.

 

[shturt678]

Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

Your first text does not support your contention. The prepositions "for" and "to" do not mean the same thing.

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Again, this text does not support your contention. This verse says plainly that Christ was offered once to bear the sins of "many." Are you sure that you want to employ this verse?

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit...

A Universalist would be quite proud of your misinterpretation of this verse. I'll give you a hint. You're either ignoring or you're unaware of the "hina" clause in the last half of your text. Once understood, this is a great Calvinist proof -text.



"Looking down the corridor of time" is the standard "Arminian" view of God's foreknowledge. If you have another view, explain it to us.

Thank you for caring again!

A little more than "many" in light of Rom.6:10 The two datives denote relation: "to or in relation to the sin"; "to or in relation to God." The thought that Christ died for our sins underlies only the dative "the sin." What Paul says by means of this dative is that Christ was done with sin. Because He had assumed our sin - everybody's, sin had claims upon him until He died, and these claims put Him into relation to our sin. His death and all that it involved ended that relation: "He died to sin once for all."

Old Jack

 

[Jun2u]

StanJ

It is true that Jesus died for the sins of the world MEANING that in all of the world, there is ONLY ONE SAVIOR Who can take away sins, the Lord Jesus! (John 1:29).

If God took away the sins of everyone in the world then there will no one come under damnation, but the Bible speaks that hell will heavily be populated.

The most quoted and misunderstood verse in the Bible is John 3:16. There the word “so” MEANS “thus” or “in this manner”, and the word “whosoever” must be qualified and read in light of the whole Bible. Only those whom God obligated to save to salvation will believe! (Eph 1:4-5; Eze 36:24-38).

Thus John 3:16 can be understood :

For God, in this manner (so), loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that those whom He elected/chosen (whosoever) will believe in Him and should not perish, but have everlasting life.

See how the tone of John 3:16 changes once we understand the key words?

Ro. 3:10-12 will not allow for anyone to believe and seek God unless it is given from above Jo 3:27.

From the whole scope of the apostle's discourse, it is plain that he considers the death of Christ as a death or sacrifice for sin; a sin-offering: in this sense no man has ever died for sin, or ever can die.(Clarke)
He died unto sin - His death had respect to sin. The design of his death was to destroy sin; to make an atonement for it, and thus to put it away.(Barnes)

I am NOT Arminian, I am a Christian. I don't label myself with man-made doctrines.

Who then is Clarke and Barnes, are you not associating yourself with their works? Although their work at best is still tainted by sin?

I would rather trust God than lean on man's understanding.

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

StanJ

It is true that Jesus died for the sins of the world MEANING that in all of the world, there is ONLY ONE SAVIOR Who can take away sins, the Lord Jesus! (John 1:29).

If God took away the sins of everyone in the world then there will no one come under damnation, but the Bible speaks that hell will heavily be populated.

The most quoted and misunderstood verse in the Bible is John 3:16. There the word “so” MEANS “thus” or “in this manner”, and the word “whosoever” must be qualified and read in light of the whole Bible. Only those whom God obligated to save to salvation will believe! (Eph 1:4-5; Eze 36:24-38).

Thus John 3:16 can be understood :

For God, in this manner (so), loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that those whom He elected/chosen (whosoever) will believe in Him and should not perish, but have everlasting life.

See how the tone of John 3:16 changes once we understand the key words?

Ro. 3:10-12 will not allow for anyone to believe and seek God unless it is given from above Jo 3:27.


Who then is Clarke and Barnes, are you not associating yourself with their works? Although their work at best is still tainted by sin?

I would rather trust God than lean on man's understanding.

To God Be The Glory

Not CAN Jun2u, DID. He died for ALL sin. That is the redemption. Salvation is accepting that Jesus did that and that He is our savior.

God forgives our sins when we confess His son as our savior. 1 John 1:9. Jesus paid the price for those sins on the cross. Jesus didn't die for sinners, He died for sin. The gift of God's son as our redeemer has to be accepted in order for our sins to be forgiven.

I have no problems with the grammar of modern English translations, and neither should you. If you want to read the English and Greek, go HERE.
John 3:16 says ANYONE/EVERYONE who believes in Jesus is saved. Paul explains in Rom 10:9-11 NIV how to put feet to that belief.
I agree the Bible must be read with all things it states about any one particular issue, and when it comes to salvation, that is clearly taught to be for ALL WHO BELIEVE.
The tone does change if you eisegete based on you dogmatic POV, however that is not the proper way to practise solid hermeneutical exegesis.
John 3:27 is not Jesus speaking, but John the baptizer, and he is making it very clear that his message was sent from heaven, not he himself. You speak of using all scripture and yet you pluck this one verse OUT of context and try to insinuate it into your dogma. Sorry but it works the other way around.
Clarke and Barnes are well known Biblical commentarians, who I used as they are credentialed and I am not. I have no idea why you would make this comment about men you obviously don't know just because they refute your POV? We are all, including yourself, tainted by sin. 1 John 1:10 NIV
Sadly you don't trust in God or His word, you trust in a humanist lawyer and French man from over 500 years ago who rebelled against the RCC.
I agree, to GOD be the Glory.

 

[Nomad]

Despite your equivocation about a word, you obviously don't understand what this means. That is clear based on you not pointing out the same thing in "to" God.

Word definitions, grammar and syntax are the building blocks of communication, Stan. Even the meaning of tiny words like prepositions are extremely important. If we treat a word like a wax nose, forming it any way we choose like you've done here, misunderstanding is sure to ensue.

You charge me with equivocation about a word because I didn't point out the ocurrance of that word in another part of the verse in question. This is ridiculous. My point was clear. We all know that "to" and "for" do not mean the same thing. There was no need to point to any other occurance of that word to make my point. Anyone with a dictionary can see what I mean. I'm afraid that you're the one who is equivocating.

Let's now see if dying "for sin" is the same as dying "to sin."

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Let's now use your desired meaning of "for" instead of "to" in Rom. 6:2.

Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died for sin still live in it?

See that? Investing the wrong meaning into even a tiny preposition has us dying for sin. Since when do sinful men become propitiations for sin? That's what dying "for" sin means -- propitiation. What Paul is talking about is clear from the context of Romans 6:10, and in this case, I'm talking about the entire chapter. Christ dying to sin means that he was set free from the enslavement that went along with bearing the sins of men. Now we also are free from the enslavement of sin. See Rom. 6:2 and following. And just like Christ we to are now free to live to God, or in other words, present ourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life as instruments of righteousness. Read verse 10 and following. It's all there. There's no need for a commentary. Just read the entire context.

As far as Heb 9:28, He died for the sin, not the many.

Your kidding right?

Yes Stan. He died for sin. That's not all it says. There's another one of those pesky little prepostions that are vexing you. Pay attention to the bold type.

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many...

Here's another good one.

Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

 

[StanJ]

Word definitions, grammar and syntax are the building blocks of communication, Stan. Even the meaning of tiny words like prepositions are extremely important. If we treat a word like a wax nose, forming it any way we choose like you've done here, misunderstanding is sure to ensue.

You charge me with equivocation about a word because I didn't point out the ocurrance of that word in another part of the verse in question. This is ridiculous. My point was clear. We all know that "to" and "for" do not mean the same thing. There was no need to point to any other occurance of that word to make my point. Anyone with a dictionary can see what I mean. I'm afraid that you're the one who is equivocating.

Let's now see if dying "for sin" is the same as dying "to sin."

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Let's now use your desired meaning of "for" instead of "to" in Rom. 6:2.

Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died for sin still live in it?

See that? Investing the wrong meaning into even a tiny preposition has us dying for sin. Since when do sinful men become propitiations for sin? That's what dying "for" sin means -- propitiation. What Paul is talking about is clear from the context of Romans 6:10, and in this case, I'm talking about the entire chapter. Christ dying to sin means that he was set free from the enslavement that went along with bearing the sins of men. Now we also are free from the enslavement of sin. See Rom. 6:2 and following. And just like Christ we to are now free to live to God, or in other words, present ourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life as instruments of righteousness. Read verse 10 and following. It's all there. There's no need for a commentary. Just read the entire context.


Your kidding right?

Yes Stan. He died for sin. That's not all it says. There's another one of those pesky little prepostions that are vexing you. Pay attention to the bold type.

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many...

Here's another good one.

Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

I totally agree about word definitions, grammar and syntax, but despite your stance, you have NOT exposited what you believe Paul is teaching in Rom 6:10. As you have stated it does not mean "for", what DOES it mean when Jesus dies "to" sin. The fact is, and based on the other verses provided, the issue is sin and not the sinner. I never alluded or implied Rom 6:10 said for, but no doubt because of your predisposed position in RT, you are sensitive to the tiniest mention, even if it's not there.
Meyer's comments are HERE. Of particular note is the following;
His dying concerned sin; and indeed so that the latter (namely the sin of the world, conceived as power) has now, after He has suffered death on account of it, become without influence upon Him and has no more power over Him; He submitted Himself to its power in His death, but through that death He has died to its power.
Bottom line is Jesus redeemed us from sin, the sin for which he died for AND to, ONCE for all. It is for sin but not all will accept Him as their savior so it is many whose lives he ransomed. The many connotes what it is in the context Nomad, just as the context of "MANY are called but few are chosen", or, "small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a FEW find it." Are MANY saved or are FEW saved?
I'm pretty sure MANY understand what Paul and the entire NT teaches about who died for sin and why.
Bottom line:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. (John 3:36 NIV)

 

[Nomad]

I totally agree about word definitions, grammar and syntax, but despite your stance, you have NOT exposited what you believe Paul is teaching in Rom 6:10.

Really??? I certainly did and I didn't even need a commentary to do it. All that is necessary to understand your proof text is to read it in context. My commentary was all of Romans chapter 6. I suggest that you go back and read my previous post very carefully. My explanation is the same as the commentary you quoted. How you missed it I'll never know. I'll make it easy for you. Here's what I said:

"Christ dying to sin means that he was set free from the enslavement that went along with bearing the sins of men. Now we also are free from the enslavement of sin. See Rom. 6:2 and following. And just like Christ we to are now free to live to God, or in other words, present ourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life as instruments of righteousness. Read verse 10 and following. It's all there. There's no need for a commentary. Just read the entire context." - http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20131-free-will/page-6#entry231999

 

[StanJ]

Really??? I certainly did and I didn't even need a commentary to do it. All that is necessary to understand your proof text is to read it in context. My commentary was all of Romans chapter 6. I suggest that you go back and read my previous post very carefully. My explanation is the same as the commentary you quoted. How you missed it I'll never know. I'll make it easy for you. Here's what I said:

"Christ dying to sin means that he was set free from the enslavement that went along with bearing the sins of men. Now we also are free from the enslavement of sin. See Rom. 6:2 and following. And just like Christ we to are now free to live to God, or in other words, present ourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life as instruments of righteousness. Read verse 10 and following. It's all there. There's no need for a commentary. Just read the entire context." - http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20131-free-will/page-6#entry231999

Yes, really. You're denying something I didn't even assign to the wording and now you're so stuck on the denial you can't see anything else.
I'll ask again....What does "to" mean to you?

 

[logabe]

Despite your equivocation about a word, you obviously don't understand what this means. That is clear based on you not pointing out the same thing in "to" God.
From the whole scope of the apostle's discourse, it is plain that he considers the death of Christ as a death or sacrifice for sin; a sin-offering: in this sense no man has ever died for sin, or ever can die.(Clarke)
He died unto sin - His death had respect to sin. The design of his death was to destroy sin; to make an atonement for it, and thus to put it away.(Barnes)

As far as Heb 9:28, He died for the sin, not the many. Redemption does not equate to salvation.
This is a standard RT ploy to divert the issue by employing a straw man. I suggest you look up the real meaning of Universalism. It does NOT mean what you imply here that it does. What is clear to me in 1 Peter 3:18 is exactly what Jesus taught in John 3:16-18.
As I stated I have already dealt with the time issue on this thread, and I am NOT Arminian, I am a Christian. I don't label myself with man-made doctrines.

Amen... Stan the man... Jesus paid a debt we couldn't pay, because we came out
of Adam. Rom. 5:18 says,

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted
condemnation to all men, even so through one act of
righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

That does sound sort of universal, but Paul was saying, because Adam sinned we
were already dead @ birth. We were dead to His Promises and by nature we couldn't
find our way back to the Kingdom. We came forth out of our mother's womb speaking
lies.

Thank God for Jesus Christ!!! We have a Savior that paid our sin debt on the cross,
which gave us the ability to come back to life. Not because we found our way out
of death, but because of the righteous act performed @ the cross by our Savior.

So now we can ask... how free is our will? It determines how much a Christian knows
about the Sovereignty of God, and he/she understands that without that righteous act,
we would all still be in death.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[StanJ]

Amen... Stan the man... Jesus paid a debt we couldn't pay, because we came out
of Adam. Rom. 5:18 says,

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted
condemnation to all men, even so through one act of
righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

That does sound sort of universal, but Paul was saying, because Adam sinned we
were already dead @ birth. We were dead to His Promises and by nature we couldn't
find our way back to the Kingdom. We came forth out of our mother's womb speaking
lies.

Thank God for Jesus Christ!!! We have a Savior that paid our sin debt on the cross,
which gave us the ability to come back to life. Not because we found our way out
of death, but because of the righteous act performed @ the cross by our Savior.

So now we can ask... how free is our will? It determines how much a Christian knows
about the Sovereignty of God, and he/she understands that without that righteous act,
we would all still be in death.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Amen as well....lately I've encountered this ploy of charging universalism that is not even implied in scripture. Unlimited atonement in the sense that whosoever will, may, is taught very clearly. There should be no equivocation between the two.

 

[Nomad]

Unlimited atonement in the sense that whosoever will, may, is taught very clearly.

Actually it's not. Let's address a favorite go to Arminian/synergist trump card and see if it holds water.

Q -
Whenever I'm discussing salvation and "free will" with someone, they always seem to retreat to John 3:16. They say, "Look right there! It says 'whosoever' believes will be saved! That means that anyone who wants to can accept Jesus and be saved!"
How do you answer that?

Jim -
Good question! You're right, John 3:16 has become the bedrock "proof text" of everyone who argues against the doctrine of election or divine predetermination. So, let's see if that verse is actually saying what these folk are convinced it says. Because, if it does, we're in hot water! But, if it doesn't, we really ought to be able to offer a sound, indisputable response.

First, let's look at John 3:16 as it appears in the King James Version:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The first thing that should be obvious is that the English rendering of this verse begins with the word "for." That means that it is the conclusion of an argument. It's the summary statement. So, we need to look at this verse in its larger context. Here is the whole passage:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:12-18)

"Whosever believeth"

Let's start by addressing the heart of the argument and then we'll get into the details. The word "whosever" appears twice in this passage. In both instances, it is used in regard to faith - "whosoever believes." The implication of this English phrase is that anyone who wishes to may exert his will and freedom of choice in order to believe something about Christ. Anyone who would like to can exercise his or her right and faculty to have (or not have) faith. The consequences of their faith (or lack of it) are then the result of that person's free and unencumbered choice.

But, there's a problem. And, it's a big problem. The New Testament was not written in English, any less the King's English. It was written in Greek. And, there is no Greek equivalent for the English word "whosoever."

That's important. So much so that it bears repeating.

There is no Greek equivalent for the English word "whosoever."

The Apostle John did not write, "Whosoever believeth." That word construction was never part of his original letter. What he did write was, "pas ho pisteuoon." The two little Greek words "pas ho" are literally translated "all the." "Pisteuoon" is a form of the word "pisteuo," the verb form of "pistis," or "faith."

The King James translators' choice of the single word "whosoever" to translate the two-word phrase "pas ho" was not an entirely errant decision. In the King's English, "whosoever" did not have the connotation of randomness or free choice that it has come to represent in contemporary English. Originally, "whosoever" designated a particular group - as in "whosoever possesses these certain qualities." In this case, the group included only those who believed, as opposed to those who did not.

But, more to the point, "pas ho" simply does not mean "anyone at all who chooses to exercise their choice." It specifically means "all the" and it serves to designate a particular group of people who share a defining characteristic -"faith" or "believing."

So, when we read, "whosoever believeth," we must understand that what John literally wrote was "all the believing." In other words, the benefits of God's love are not indiscriminately available to anyone who chooses to possess them. Only the particular group - "all the believing" - are gifted with eternal life.

http://www.salvationbygrace.org/default.aspx

 

[shturt678]

Thank you again folks for caring!

Only another head's up regarding "Atonement." The Scriptures often speaks of the atonement as limited, then often speaks of the atonement as unlimited; however always to be viewed as "Universal Atonement."

Old Jack two-bits again

 

[logabe]

Thank you again folks for caring!

Only another head's up regarding "Atonement." The Scriptures often speaks of the atonement as limited, then often speaks of the atonement as unlimited; however always to be viewed as "Universal Atonement."

Old Jack two-bits again

Yes Old Jack... I agree. So we must rightly divide the Word of Truth. Let's take a look @
what is obvious. 1st John 2:2 says,

2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for
ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

That sounds like everybody that has ever lived. Is John saying everybody is going to be saved
because of the righteous act of Jesus Christ? We need to get a 2nd witness to confirm what
John has just stated. Romans 5:19 says,

19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many
were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the
One the many will be made righteous.

Okay... let's look @ this with an open spiritual mind. We don't need to try to figure out what Paul
& John is plainly saying, but I have a question. Did you & I have anything to do with becoming a
sinner? According to Paul we were already sinners when we were born. We didn't have to learn
how to sin, because it just came natural. Well that brings us to the next question. If this one act
of disobedience made you and I a sinner, where is my free will in all of this?

God placed you and I in Adam before we were even born and we were affected by his decision not
ours. Where is justice in that? That's where Jesus comes in and covers our sins and also the sins of
the world. Why? Because it was an injustice, but it was the purpose and plan of God. Now that's hard
to swallow, but when we realize everything that God does it is because of His Love which I don't
understand @ times, then by faith we accept what God is doing.

What about John 3:16?

Here John makes our salvation conditional by telling us a person must believe in order to be saved.
Which is it John? You sound like you are contradicting yourself. One minute all the sins of the world
have been covered, but now the ones who believe shall be saved. I thought Paul said by one act of
righteousness the ALL will be made righteous.

I have a question. We know the sinners that Paul was talking about was everybody, because all have
sinned and come short of the glory of God, but what about the second part of that verse that says the
ALL will be made righteous? Surely Paul couldn't be saying everybody will be made righteous, but that
is exactly what he is saying. Paul is saying one day all will believe because of the one righteous act of
Jesus Christ. Give me scripture!!! Philippians 2:10-11 says,

10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those
who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.

Now let's rightly divide the Word of Truth. God will not save anybody without them responding to His
call, but Paul is saying that one day everybody will believe & respond by bowing and confessing that
Jesus is truly the King of Kings & the Lord of Lords.

Wow... that's hard to believe! God is going to undo the injustice that was done in His sovereign will. He
will bring the all into the kingdom in the Ages to come. Eph. 2:7 says,

7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches
of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[shturt678]

Yes Old Jack... I agree. So we must rightly divide the Word of Truth. Let's take a look @
what is obvious. 1st John 2:2 says,

2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for
ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

That sounds like everybody that has ever lived. Is John saying everybody is going to be saved
because of the righteous act of Jesus Christ? We need to get a 2nd witness to confirm what
John has just stated. Romans 5:19 says,

19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many
were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the
One the many will be made righteous.

Okay... let's look @ this with an open spiritual mind. We don't need to try to figure out what Paul
& John is plainly saying, but I have a question. Did you & I have anything to do with becoming a
sinner? According to Paul we were already sinners when we were born. We didn't have to learn
how to sin, because it just came natural. Well that brings us to the next question. If this one act
of disobedience made you and I a sinner, where is my free will in all of this?

God placed you and I in Adam before we were even born and we were affected by his decision not
ours. Where is justice in that? That's where Jesus comes in and covers our sins and also the sins of
the world. Why? Because it was an injustice, but it was the purpose and plan of God. Now that's hard
to swallow, but when we realize everything that God does it is because of His Love which I don't
understand @ times, then by faith we accept what God is doing.

What about John 3:16?

Here John makes our salvation conditional by telling us a person must believe in order to be saved.
Which is it John? You sound like you are contradicting yourself. One minute all the sins of the world
have been covered, but now the ones who believe shall be saved. I thought Paul said by one act of
righteousness the ALL will be made righteous.

I have a question. We know the sinners that Paul was talking about was everybody, because all have
sinned and come short of the glory of God, but what about the second part of that verse that says the
ALL will be made righteous? Surely Paul couldn't be saying everybody will be made righteous, but that
is exactly what he is saying. Paul is saying one day all will believe because of the one righteous act of
Jesus Christ. Give me scripture!!! Philippians 2:10-11 says,

10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those
who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.

Now let's rightly divide the Word of Truth. God will not save anybody without them responding to His
call, but Paul is saying that one day everybody will believe & respond by bowing and confessing that
Jesus is truly the King of Kings & the Lord of Lords.

Wow... that's hard to believe! God is going to undo the injustice that was done in His sovereign will. He
will bring the all into the kingdom in the Ages to come. Eph. 2:7 says,

7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches
of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Great! I agreed to a lot!

Again, not that I'm correct, the Scriptures speak of the atonement for those who receive the full effect, ie, limited atonment contextually, Eph.5:25 and IIPet.2:1 for openers. Off the top Rom.5:10a speak of universal (unlimited) atonement) which I'm very familiar with.

Old 'enslaved-will' Jack

Only have to point out where I didn't cut the Word in the truthful direction, and I'll be one happy camper as I'm refutable.

 

[RANDOR]

Appears Adam and Eve had free will...................don't cha just hate it when someone tells ya not to do somthin.
And then.your buddies come along and....nah.........it's ok............just take a hit.

 

[shturt678]

Appears Adam and Eve had free will...................don't cha just hate it when someone tells ya not to do somthin.
And then.your buddies come along and....nah.........it's ok............just take a hit.

With you on this one, that is, hate that antichristain seduction. I'm hitten the Word with you!

Old Jack out of that 'seduction' into the Word with brother RANDOR!

 

[williemac]

Yes Old Jack... I agree. So we must rightly divide the Word of Truth. Let's take a look @
what is obvious. 1st John 2:2 says,

2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for
ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

That sounds like everybody that has ever lived. Is John saying everybody is going to be saved
because of the righteous act of Jesus Christ? We need to get a 2nd witness to confirm what
John has just stated. Romans 5:19 says,

19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many
were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the
One the many will be made righteous.

Okay... let's look @ this with an open spiritual mind. We don't need to try to figure out what Paul
& John is plainly saying, but I have a question. Did you & I have anything to do with becoming a
sinner? According to Paul we were already sinners when we were born. We didn't have to learn
how to sin, because it just came natural. Well that brings us to the next question. If this one act
of disobedience made you and I a sinner, where is my free will in all of this?

God placed you and I in Adam before we were even born and we were affected by his decision not
ours. Where is justice in that? That's where Jesus comes in and covers our sins and also the sins of
the world. Why? Because it was an injustice, but it was the purpose and plan of God. Now that's hard
to swallow, but when we realize everything that God does it is because of His Love which I don't
understand @ times, then by faith we accept what God is doing.

What about John 3:16?

Here John makes our salvation conditional by telling us a person must believe in order to be saved.
Which is it John? You sound like you are contradicting yourself. One minute all the sins of the world
have been covered, but now the ones who believe shall be saved. I thought Paul said by one act of
righteousness the ALL will be made righteous.

I have a question. We know the sinners that Paul was talking about was everybody, because all have
sinned and come short of the glory of God, but what about the second part of that verse that says the
ALL will be made righteous? Surely Paul couldn't be saying everybody will be made righteous, but that
is exactly what he is saying. Paul is saying one day all will believe because of the one righteous act of
Jesus Christ. Give me scripture!!! Philippians 2:10-11 says,

10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those
who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.

Now let's rightly divide the Word of Truth. God will not save anybody without them responding to His
call, but Paul is saying that one day everybody will believe & respond by bowing and confessing that
Jesus is truly the King of Kings & the Lord of Lords.

Wow... that's hard to believe! God is going to undo the injustice that was done in His sovereign will. He
will bring the all into the kingdom in the Ages to come. Eph. 2:7 says,

7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches
of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

I can't help but notice that you have changed the word " many" to the word " all". Paul never said "all mankind" will be made righteous. You are putting words in his mouth. The point of Rom.ch. 5 was not to inform us that every human is included in redemption, but that everone who is redeemed is done so by the righteous act of one Man. Paul was teaching how rightoeusness is attained and acquired, and how it was made possible and available, and by Whom. He was not teaching universalism. If he was doing so, he would have expounded and expanded on that subject. He had a pattern of going into great detail on all the important doctrines that he addressed. There is no detail whatsoever in Paul's letters concerning universalism. In fact, in his letter to the Galatians, if he believed in universal redemption, he would have forgotton all about it in rebuking them for adding the law to jusitfication. He went so far as to suggest that they had fallen from grace because of their error. The universal doctrine sinks in that water. One cannot fall from grace or from justification if they are universally applied to all mankind. Cheers and blessings. And FYI, the passage in Phillipians does not confirm universal salvation, as it refers to everyone under the earth also bowing to Jesus. What are they doing under the earth if they are redeemed? The act of bowing the knee does not imply worship nor does it imply adoration. Those at the Great White Throne judgment, who will ultimately be destroyed (exterminated) in the lake of fire, will undoubtedly bow the knee to their judge.

 

[StanJ]

That sounds like everybody that has ever lived. Is John saying everybody is going to be saved
because of the righteous act of Jesus Christ? We need to get a 2nd witness to confirm what
John has just stated. Romans 5:19 says,


Okay... let's look @ this with an open spiritual mind. We don't need to try to figure out what Paul
& John is plainly saying, but I have a question. Did you & I have anything to do with becoming a
sinner? According to Paul we were already sinners when we were born. We didn't have to learn
how to sin, because it just came natural. Well that brings us to the next question. If this one act
of disobedience made you and I a sinner, where is my free will in all of this?

God placed you and I in Adam before we were even born and we were affected by his decision not
ours. Where is justice in that? That's where Jesus comes in and covers our sins and also the sins of
the world. Why? Because it was an injustice, but it was the purpose and plan of God. Now that's hard
to swallow, but when we realize everything that God does it is because of His Love which I don't
understand @ times, then by faith we accept what God is doing.

What about John 3:16?

Here John makes our salvation conditional by telling us a person must believe in order to be saved.
Which is it John? You sound like you are contradicting yourself. One minute all the sins of the world
have been covered, but now the ones who believe shall be saved. I thought Paul said by one act of
righteousness the ALL will be made righteous.

I have a question. We know the sinners that Paul was talking about was everybody, because all have
sinned and come short of the glory of God, but what about the second part of that verse that says the
ALL will be made righteous? Surely Paul couldn't be saying everybody will be made righteous, but that
is exactly what he is saying. Paul is saying one day all will believe because of the one righteous act of
Jesus Christ. Give me scripture!!! Philippians 2:10-11 says,

10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those
who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.

Now let's rightly divide the Word of Truth. God will not save anybody without them responding to His
call, but Paul is saying that one day everybody will believe & respond by bowing and confessing that
Jesus is truly the King of Kings & the Lord of Lords.

Wow... that's hard to believe! God is going to undo the injustice that was done in His sovereign will. He
will bring the all into the kingdom in the Ages to come. Eph. 2:7 says,

7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches
of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Jesus died for SIN, not people. That is called redemption. Once we accept and acknowledge that redemption, we are saved. Many will be saved and many will enter the wide gate into hell so it does depend on the context of the scripture being read.

We are born INTO a sinful world, we are not born sinners. We may develop the propensity to sin but that is another issue.

What Paul is speaking about IN CONTEXT in Phil 2:10-11 is the great white throne judgment. Jesus IS LORD even if He is not OUR Lord.

The rest of your conclusion is based on faulty exegesis. Today is the day of salvation, today the Word of Life is near you. Nobody gets saved after they die.