"Free" Will

[Nomad]

Romans 5:18. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."(It does not teach universalism, but universal atonement)

Let's deal with this one first.

If "all men" means everyone without exception as you believe then this verse teaches universalism. If your understanding is correct, this verse doesn't just prove universal atonement, it proves universal justification and life for all men without exception.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

 

[StanJ]

Let's deal with this one first.

If "all men" means everyone without exception as you believe then this verse teaches universalism. If your understanding is correct, this verse doesn't just prove universal atonement, it proves universal justification and life for all men without exception.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

That's RT apologetics speaking Nomad, NOT proper hermeneutical exegesis. If you read this IN context, v19 states; For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Now do you advocate that many men are sinners, or that ALL men are sinners? The answer is obvious, ALL men are sinners. I don't need to look up the Greek word to know the connotation of MANY here. The same thing goes with ALL in v18. You refuse to accept it because you won't allow the possibility of Unlimited Atonement, but it is taught here and many other places. ALL men are condemned and ALL men are covered under Christ's redemptive act. All they need to do is confess Christ as their savior. Rom 10:9-11. Redemption allows salvation to happen but ONLY if men accept Christ's redemptive gift.

 

[Tex]

@ OP,

First, a better translation will help. I like the NIV, but I really like the ESV. Gender neutral, and it shouldn't be, but its otherwise the best I've ever seen.

There is free will because we choose what we do. When I eat eggs rather than toast, it's because I chose. When I feed the homeless rather than club baby seals, I chose. What the passage refered to is talking about is predestination. Can I earn my way to heaven? No. Not in the least bit. Faith is a gift of the holy spirit.

We shouldn't push predestination too far though. Can I earn my way into hell? Yes. Absolutely. No double predestination here. God desires all to be saved. He loves his children.

 

[StanJ]

Hi Tex...welcome aboard.

 

[Nomad]

That's RT apologetics speaking Nomad,

No, with your definition of "all" in mind, that's the text of Scripture speaking Stan.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

If "all" means everyone without exception as you suppose then everyone without exception receives "justification and life." Are you going to tell me that justification and life do not = salvation?

If you read this IN context, v19 states; For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Yes verse 19 says "many" but verse 18 says "all." So verse 19 cancels out the universal statement of verse 18? Very interesting. If "all" in verse 18 means everyone without exception as you would have it, then how can verse 19 say "many?" You've created another contradiction.

I'll give you a hint Stan. Romans 5:12-19 is about federal headship. The "all" and the "many" pertain to one or the other federal head. You're either "in Christ" or you're "in Adam." I'm going to leave it there for now. I'm more interested in seeing if you're going to be honest this time about verse 18.

 

[StanJ]

No, with your definition of "all" in mind, that's the text of Scripture speaking Stan.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

If "all" means everyone without exception as you suppose then everyone without exception receives "justification and life." Are you going to tell me that justification and life do not = salvation?


Yes verse 19 says "many" but verse 18 says "all." So verse 19 cancels out the universal statement of verse 18? Very interesting. If "all" in verse 18 means everyone without exception as you would have it, then how can verse 19 say "many?" You've created another contradiction.

I'll give you a hint Stan. Romans 5:12-19 is about federal headship. The "all" and the "many" pertain to one or the other federal head. You're either "in Christ" or you're "in Adam." I'm going to leave it there for now. I'm more interested in seeing if you're going to be honest this time about verse 18.

All is all Nomad. It's not MY definition it's the actual definition, unless of course you think ALL translators got it wrong?

Rom 5:18 does NOT say all men receive, it says it leads to justification and life for all men. Other scripture tells us those men must confess and accept or receive the gift or redemption in order to be saved.

Oh now you're making up your own rules of grammar? I already showed you that many in v19 means all, because all men are sinners. Ignoring my question just shows you know better and are being disingenuous to say the least. Answer the questions Nomad....are ALL men sinners or not?
We're not talking about federal headship Nomad, so stop the diversionary tactics and deal with the issue at hand. In his article on federal headship though, Matt Slick states the following in his article on federal headship;
A very interesting verse is found in Rom. 5:18, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." Before we comment, we need to analyze this verse. The literal Greek of Rom. 5:18 is "so therefore as through one offense into all men into condemnation, so also through one righteous deed into all men into justification of life." Notice that there are no verbs in Rom. 5:18 in the original Greek.
Because there is no verb in this verse (it is not unusual in Greek for there to be no verb in a sentence), a verb must be borrowed or implied when translating to the English. Since there isn't a verb close enough in the previous verses to borrow that would fit appropriately, one from the context must be derived. A smoothed-out version would be: "So, as through one offense, there resulted condemnation to all men so also, through one righteous deed, there resulted justification of life to all men." This is exactly how the New American Standard Bible translates it. The International Standard Version says, "Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone."
We know that inserting the words "there resulted" (found in the NASB, ISV) into the text is correct by simple logic. The offense of Adam resulted in condemnation to all men--no one disputes that since sin entered the world through Adam, "as through one man sin entered the world," (Rom. 5:12). Therefore, we see an actual result of Adam's sin: condemnation to all. This is why it follows that "there resulted" should be in the second part of the sentence as well because the second part has the same syntax as the first and says "also" showing the parallel between them:
So as through one offense there resulted condemnation to all men,
so also through one righteous deed there resulted justification of life to all men.
Paul is trying to make it clear that the deeds of the respective persons, Adam and Jesus, had definite results upon those whom they represented. That is why the verse is really two sentences of identical structure united by "so also."

________ Adam's sin resulted in condemnation to all,
so also, Jesus' sacrifice resulted in justification to all
Paul is implying a parallel between the actions of Adam and the actions of Jesus. Where the first Adam brought condemnation to all, the second Adam (Jesus is called the second Adam in 1 Cor. 15:45) brought justification to all--that is what the text says, despite the apparent problem of "all people being justified."

Calling me a liar is sadly typical of your ilk but hardly worth the effort to defend. God's Word is clear for those who aren't bound by dogma.

 

[Nomad]

Rom 5:18 does NOT say all men receive, it says it leads to justification and life for all men.

Yes, you certainly are the king of distinctions without a difference. Oh, and by the way Stan, that Matt Slick article doesn't help you, it hurts you. You really should go back and read it again very very carefully.

 

[StanJ]

Yes, you certainly are the king of distinctions without a difference. Oh, and by the way Stan, that Matt Slick article doesn't help you, it hurts you. You really should go back and read it again very very carefully.

Sorry, were you trying to make a point here? I see words on the screen, but they mean nothing. Denial seems to be the only thing of last resort for you Nomad.

 

[shturt678]

Glad you recognize that I do Jack.

I think I know what verse you are alluding to, but please clarify where the scripture says we are formed in the womb as sinners?

Thank you for your response again!

The ol' Ps.51:5 routine, "shapen in iniquity."

Old Jack

 

[StanJ]

Thank you for your response again!

The ol' Ps.51:5 routine, "shapen in iniquity."

Old Jack

Yep thought so...so do you believe we are also KNIT in our mothers womb. You don't believe in pro-creation?

 

[shturt678]

Let's deal with this one first.

If "all men" means everyone without exception as you believe then this verse teaches universalism. If your understanding is correct, this verse doesn't just prove universal atonement, it proves universal justification and life for all men without exception.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Thank you for caring!

However Rom.5:10a does prove "universal atonement."

Old Jack

Yep thought so...so do you believe we are also KNIT in our mothers womb. You don't believe in pro-creation?

Thank you for your response again!

Absolutely with a forever and ever soul also in the sense of Jn.3:6 that God even knew about before creation.

Old Jack

 

[StanJ]

Thank you for caring!

However Rom.5:10a does prove "universal atonement."

Old Jack

Thank you for your response again!

Absolutely with a forever and ever soul also in the sense of Jn.3:6 that God even knew about before creation.

Old Jack

SO, you believe in pro-creation, which was what David was referring to and pro-creation does not involve God directly, so how does He KNIT us together in our mother's womb?

 

[shturt678]

SO, you believe in pro-creation, which was what David was referring to and pro-creation does not involve God directly, so how does He KNIT us together in our mother's womb?

Thank you for your response again!

Finally down to my lower paygrade my brother. It's the ol' 'prototype' image routine where God created us in His image, ie, always implies derivation...invisible soul and sprirt.

Old Jack puttin in for a paygrade raise again.

 

[StanJ]

Thank you for your response again!

Finally down to my lower paygrade my brother. It's the ol' 'prototype' image routine where God created us in His image, ie, always implies derivation...invisible soul and sprirt.

Old Jack puttin in for a paygrade raise again.

Which in the case of humans, is called pro-creation. We don't need God's intervention on every conception now do we?
Of course He did get involved in the conception of Jesus, seeing as He was the Father.
You didn't answer my question about being KNIT by God in our mother's womb.

 

[shturt678]

Which in the case of humans, is called pro-creation. We don't need God's intervention on every conception now do we?
Of course He did get involved in the conception of Jesus, seeing as He was the Father.
You didn't answer my question about being KNIT by God in our mother's womb.

Thank you for your response again, ie, spaced out ol' Ps.139 again....sorry bout that one...not into the Psalms enough.

Ps.139:13, the ol' marvellous work of the omniscient and omnipresence of God, ie, still a mystery to me thus won't be able to answer this one...way above my paygrade. Kind of a secret laboratory of the earthy origin. I did have one interesting note to share, note "the earth was the mother's womb of Adam, and the mother's womb out of which the child of Adam comes forth is the earth out of which it's taken" along with a ref. to Job1:21.

Now here is where you can help an old Lutheran man, ie, I don't know the answer?

Old Jack

 

[StanJ]

Thank you for your response again, ie, spaced out ol' Ps.139 again....sorry bout that one...not into the Psalms enough.

Ps.139:13, the ol' marvellous work of the omniscient and omnipresence of God, ie, still a mystery to me thus won't be able to answer this one...way above my paygrade. Kind of a secret laboratory of the earthy origin. I did have one interesting note to share, note "the earth was the mother's womb of Adam, and the mother's womb out of which the child of Adam comes forth is the earth out of which it's taken" along with a ref. to Job1:21.

Now here is where you can help an old Lutheran man, ie, I don't know the answer?

Old Jack

LOL...already answered you a couple of times....it's called pro-creation. God told US to go forth and multiply.

 

[shturt678]

LOL...already answered you a couple of times....it's called pro-creation. God told US to go forth and multiply.

Thank you for your response answering the question.

It's that sometimers again bordering on allstimers,

Old old Jack not getting any younger looking for my choppers again?

 

[StanJ]

Thank you for your response answering the question.

It's that sometimers again bordering on allstimers,

Old old Jack not getting any younger looking for my choppers again?

NP Jack, I get the same thing once in a while...mostly short term stuff.

 

[shturt678]

NP Jack, I get the same thing once in a while...mostly short term stuff.

Thank you again for your response!

Mine has been getting longer term lately...think it also has to do with my "Enslaved-will."

Old Jack

 

[logabe]

I can't help but notice that you have changed the word " many" to the word " all". Paul never said "all mankind" will be made righteous. You are putting words in his mouth. The point of Rom.ch. 5 was not to inform us that every human is included in redemption, but that everone who is redeemed is done so by the righteous act of one Man. Paul was teaching how rightoeusness is attained and acquired, and how it was made possible and available, and by Whom. He was not teaching universalism. If he was doing so, he would have expounded and expanded on that subject. He had a pattern of going into great detail on all the important doctrines that he addressed. There is no detail whatsoever in Paul's letters concerning universalism. In fact, in his letter to the Galatians, if he believed in universal redemption, he would have forgotton all about it in rebuking them for adding the law to jusitfication. He went so far as to suggest that they had fallen from grace because of their error. The universal doctrine sinks in that water. One cannot fall from grace or from justification if they are universally applied to all mankind. Cheers and blessings. And FYI, the passage in Phillipians does not confirm universal salvation, as it refers to everyone under the earth also bowing to Jesus. What are they doing under the earth if they are redeemed? The act of bowing the knee does not imply worship nor does it imply adoration. Those at the Great White Throne judgment, who will ultimately be destroyed (exterminated) in the lake of fire, will undoubtedly bow the knee to their judge.

Willie... do we really want to know the truth about God's purpose and plan for His Creation, or
do we want to protect our little doctrines that have absolutely nothing to do with what God is
doing in the earth today?

I have no desire to protect the doctrine of universalism, as a matter of fact, I think they are in
error in some of their beliefs. So let's get back to what the scriptures have to say and if I am
wrong about Rom. 5:19... then I want you to teach me because God has made me very flexible
when it comes to Him teaching me His ways.

Question...

Did judgment come upon ALL MEN unto condemnation by the offence of Adam? Sure it did. It
effected every human being that has ever lived. We can both agree with that, right?

Question...

Did that offence have anything to do with you and I? I think we can both agree the answer is NO.
My point is, God placed every person that has ever lived in this condemnation without our approval,
and without our knowledge of what He had done. Okay, so it sounds like there is some injustice in
the plan of God. Why should we be paying for something Adam did? Rom. 8:20 says,

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but
because of Him who subjected it, in hope

Paul is telling us God placed us in this vanity, but not without hope. Wait a minute, I thought Adam
placed us here, but Paul is saying God is responsible for this condemnation that most of humanity
lives in. Adam was the vehicle that God used to subject the creation to this state of being, but ultimately
God is responsible in His sovereignty. Houston... we have a problem.

How can a just God do such an unjust act and still be just? Rom. 8:21 says,

21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to
corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

There's the answer! One day God will release the whole creation from it's slavery of sin, and restore His
Kingdom back so all peoples can enjoy the love and mercy of God. At the moment, most of us don't see
how God could possibly do such a merciful and graceful act by releasing the whole creation from it's
bondage, but that is exactly what God is going to do. God has swore that this will happen because of the
death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Rom. 8:22 says,

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the
pains of childbirth together until now.

The whole creation knows that something has to be done because of all of the hate and injustice in the world
today is coming to a climax in history. They know something has to give, but they are waiting for someone
to tell them what it is. Rom. 8:23 says,

23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits
of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting
eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Not only the creation, but also the first fruits (the ones God is dealing with first), know also something has to
give way to the things that have come upon this earth. What is it? Rom. 8:19 says,

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the
revealing of the sons of God.

That's what we are waiting for... the beginning of the release of this vanity when the Sons of God are manifested
in the earth, then we will see righteousness flourishing everywhere and in everyone.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe