"Free" Will

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logabe

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newbirth said:
what does this have to do with freewill...the truth does not make you free to do as you please...it makes you free to choose either to be a servant of righteousness or a servant of sin...before the truth you were in bondage to sin...
Where does scripture say "God begins to make our choices for us" that is false teaching...
It has plenty to do with FREEWILL if you understand that your will becomes His Will through the process of
sanctification. John 17:17 & 21 says,

17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in
You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that
You sent Me.

My point is, when we become one with the Christ which is within us, we only say what our Father says, and
we only do what we see our Father do. Isn't that what Jesus said? If you are one with Him, then you will not
do anything contrary to the Word of God, because God will be making that decision for you.

As a matter of fact, you can't come to God unless He draws you. You don't choose yourself, God chooses you.
John 15:16 says,

16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that
you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so
that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

The old man thinks he is doing something for God, because he believes that Jesus is the Christ, but Jesus told
us we can't even come to Him to believe, unless the Spirit draws us. Where is our FREEWILL in that? When
we begin to understand that God does it all, then and only then, can we recognize the old man that is trying to
deceive us into believing that we are saved by our own confessing that Jesus is Lord. No, a thousand times no,
the new man which is created in Christ Jesus, is the one that will confess that Jesus is Lord. He will not take any
credit for the salvation that Jesus supplied for us @ Calvary.

We must lay down our wills and allow God's will to be done in our lives. Our will is always tainted with carnality,
because of the mortality within our body. God has provided a solution to our mortal problem through His Son's
death, and the old man within us must die daily in order for us to benefit now and in the future. It comes down
to one thing... are we going to believe the old man or the new man. Either one will influence your so called
freewill.

Jacob learned that lesson when he wrestled with the angel. God changed his name (nature) from Jacob (deceiver)
to Israel (God Rules). When we understand God Rules in every situation, then we can begin to focus on things that
matter. His yoke is EASY. His decisions are perfect!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

newbirth

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Wormwood said:
This isnt a redefinition of words. If someone says, "We have freedom to vote" they are not indicating absolute freedom. This does not mean infants can vote. Nor does it mean that a person can vote whenever they wish. It means, "When the time comes for votes to be collected for the candidates, those registered citizens of legal age may vote if they choose." It is silly to think that anytime the word "free" is used that this mandates absolute, unrestricted ability. The word is never used that way. In fact, if you want to press your semantics game to try to win a pointless point, the definition of the adjective "free" is:


Neither of these definitions teach absolute freedom. It simply means to be unimpeded and not under the control of another. I am "free" to break God's laws. God does not force me to break them, nor does he force me to keep them. I do not have to have all power and all knowledge to express free will, or to act according to my own desires. God has granted us that right. Now, I'm done with the semantics game. If you want to discuss the topic, please do. Stop derailing the issue with word definitions when everyone else discussing the topic is fully aware of what is implied by the term, "free will."
you guys are impossible...the discussion is do we have freewill...an open blanket statement...so you are actually agreeing with me there is no open blanket freewill and the freewill you are referring to is within the confines of Christianity....and even within the confines of Christianity there is no freewill because even though you are set free you are commanded to do the will of the Father...
To say free is not used to mandate absolute, unrestricted ability. is wrong since that is what it means...what you are not looking at is the confines of which free and freedom is used....it is almost always in the context of being free from something but restricted by something else......in the case of voting..one must qualify to be free to do so within the confines of the rules of that democracy ...the rain is free to fall until it hits the ground it is restricted from falling ...as a Christian one is restricted from sinning...
Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
that is the will of God.....he who loves God does not want to sin...but we do sin from time to time.....if we had free will ...we would not have that problem would we?


James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 

newbirth

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May 23, 2015
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logabe said:
It has plenty to do with FREEWILL if you understand that your will becomes His Will through the process of
sanctification. John 17:17 & 21 says,

17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in
You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that
You sent Me.

My point is, when we become one with the Christ which is within us, we only say what our Father says, and
we only do what we see our Father do. Isn't that what Jesus said? If you are one with Him, then you will not
do anything contrary to the Word of God, because God will be making that decision for you.

As a matter of fact, you can't come to God unless He draws you. You don't choose yourself, God chooses you.
John 15:16 says,

16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that
you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so
that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

The old man thinks he is doing something for God, because he believes that Jesus is the Christ, but Jesus told
us we can't even come to Him to believe, unless the Spirit draws us. Where is our FREEWILL in that? When
we begin to understand that God does it all, then and only then, can we recognize the old man that is trying to
deceive us into believing that we are saved by our own confessing that Jesus is Lord. No, a thousand times no,
the new man which is created in Christ Jesus, is the one that will confess that Jesus is Lord. He will not take any
credit for the salvation that Jesus supplied for us @ Calvary.

We must lay down our wills and allow God's will to be done in our lives. Our will is always tainted with carnality,
because of the mortality within our body. God has provided a solution to our mortal problem through His Son's
death, and the old man within us must die daily in order for us to benefit now and in the future. It comes down
to one thing... are we going to believe the old man or the new man. Either one will influence your so called
freewill.

Jacob learned that lesson when he wrestled with the angel. God changed his name (nature) from Jacob (deceiver)
to Israel (God Rules). When we understand God Rules in every situation, then we can begin to focus on things that
matter. His yoke is EASY. His decisions are perfect!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
All you have shown is God's will ...we deny ourself to do God's will...and say like Jesus...nevertheless not my will but your will...nowhere does it say our will becomes His will...

Isaiah 55:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 

Barrd

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newbirth said:
you guys are impossible...the discussion is do we have freewill...an open blanket statement...so you are actually agreeing with me there is no open blanket freewill and the freewill you are referring to is within the confines of Christianity....and even within the confines of Christianity there is no freewill because even though you are set free you are commanded to do the will of the Father...
To say free is not used to mandate absolute, unrestricted ability. is wrong since that is what it means...what you are not looking at is the confines of which free and freedom is used....it is almost always in the context of being free from something but restricted by something else......in the case of voting..one must qualify to be free to do so within the confines of the rules of that democracy ...the rain is free to fall until it hits the ground it is restricted from falling ...as a Christian one is restricted from sinning...
Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
that is the will of God.....he who loves God does not want to sin...but we do sin from time to time.....if we had free will ...we would not have that problem would we?
James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
I think the point you are missing is that even though God has commanded us not to sin, we are still able to choose to do so. Not a great choice, to be sure, but we still do have that choice.
Do we sin? Yes, indeed we do. We have made a bad choice, but it was a choice.
Now, we have yet another choice. We can choose to confess our sin, and, with God's help, put it away from us.
Or, we can choose to remain in our sin.
Of course, if we choose to confess and repent, God will forgive us.
If we do not, He will not.
But we do have a choice...

Are we 'slaves to righteousness'? If we are, we are very disobedient slaves, because I do recall reading that there is none righteous, no not one.
It seems that righteousness is a choice we can not make for ourselves. We must depend on Christ to be our righteousness for us. So, in that sense, you are right.
We do not have a choice. We are going to sin.
 

newbirth

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The Barrd said:
I think the point you are missing is that even though God has commanded us not to sin, we are still able to choose to do so. Not a great choice, to be sure, but we still do have that choice.
Do we sin? Yes, indeed we do. We have made a bad choice, but it was a choice.
Now, we have yet another choice. We can choose to confess our sin, and, with God's help, put it away from us.
Or, we can choose to remain in our sin.
Of course, if we choose to confess and repent, God will forgive us.
If we do not, He will not.
But we do have a choice...

Are we 'slaves to righteousness'? If we are, we are very disobedient slaves, because I do recall reading that there is none righteous, no not one.
It seems that righteousness is a choice we can not make for ourselves. We must depend on Christ to be our righteousness for us. So, in that sense, you are right.
We do not have a choice. We are going to sin.
is it your will to sin???is that your desire to sin??? what point am I missing????so you say you have free will ...sin when you feel like it ...if you say you are free to do so..... there should be no penalty for sin since you say are free to sin..
your ignorance of the scripture is showing......if there is none righteous then Christ died in vain...
Matthew 25:37
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
 

Born_Again

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What I find interesting about so many of these thread is that by the time you get 15-16 pages in, the OP is so lost and some of the participants end up contradicting themselves. And not too long after that, it just turns into a rock throwing contest and it goes round and round. And finally, it just becomes a filibuster. It is simply sad. It shows an example of the fractured church. It is also an example of why we have so many denominations. People twist what they want so it fits what they want it to fit.
 
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FHII

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Born_Again said:
What I find interesting about so many of these thread is that by the time you get 15-16 pages in, the OP is so lost and some of the participants end up contradicting themselves. And not too long after that, it just turns into a rock throwing contest and it goes round and round. And finally, it just becomes a filibuster. It is simply sad. It shows an example of the fractured church. It is also an example of why we have so many denominations. People twist what they want so it fits what they want it to fit.
That is usually the case, but its also usually mixed with new participants coming and going. Sometimes they bring something new, most of the time by page 8 there is nothing new that can be brought.

But I do agree with you, most of what happens by this stage has nothing to do with the OP.

your last post and mine included
 

Barrd

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Born_Again said:
What I find interesting about so many of these thread is that by the time you get 15-16 pages in, the OP is so lost and some of the participants end up contradicting themselves. And not too long after that, it just turns into a rock throwing contest and it goes round and round. And finally, it just becomes a filibuster. It is simply sad. It shows an example of the fractured church. It is also an example of why we have so many denominations. People twist what they want so it fits what they want it to fit.
I think this is the first time you've said something that I can wholeheartedly agree with, BA.
I was about to post Isaiah 41:26 and Romans 3:10....
But I think I will just take this thread off of my notifications list.
It's pretty well run it's course, and I like FHII too much to argue with him.
 

Wormwood

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you guys are impossible...the discussion is do we have freewill...an open blanket statement...so you are actually agreeing with me there is no open blanket freewill and the freewill you are referring to is within the confines of Christianity....and even within the confines of Christianity there is no freewill because even though you are set free you are commanded to do the will of the Father...
To say free is not used to mandate absolute, unrestricted ability. is wrong since that is what it means...what you are not looking at is the confines of which free and freedom is used....it is almost always in the context of being free from something but restricted by something else......in the case of voting..one must qualify to be free to do so within the confines of the rules of that democracy ...the rain is free to fall until it hits the ground it is restricted from falling ...as a Christian one is restricted from sinning...
There is just no logic in what you are saying here. I dont know how to communicate with you any more clearly, so I am done trying. Either I am unable to communicate in a way that can help you understand or you are just unwilling. I have read dozens of books on this topic and have studied this this doctrinal debate for many years. The church has discussed this topic for centuries. Yet you just think you can define a word in a certain way and end the discussion...as if the problem is that people do not know the meaning of words. Sigh. Again, I would encourage you to read up on this topic. I assure you there is much more to it than semantics.
 

StanJ

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newbirth said:
you guys are impossible...the discussion is do we have freewill...an open blanket statement...so you are actually agreeing with me there is no open blanket freewill and the freewill you are referring to is within the confines of Christianity....and even within the confines of Christianity there is no freewill because even though you are set free you are commanded to do the will of the Father...
and this clearly show you refuse to be properly instructed. I'm gonna bet you don't go to A church on a regular basis and have NO mentor you submit to?
 

newbirth

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StanJ said:
and this clearly show you refuse to be properly instructed. I'm gonna bet you don't go to A church on a regular basis and have NO mentor you submit to?
and your solution for proper instruction is going to a church???


2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Most of the churches teach false doctrine as you do....Christ is my mentor...even Paul said...
1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
and John said
1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 

StanJ

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newbirth said:
and your solution for proper instruction is going to a church???


2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Most of the churches teach false doctrine as you do....Christ is my mentor...even Paul said...
1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
and John said
1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Yes, as Jesus taught, as Hebrews teaches and as Paul teaches. You seem to forget that JESUS gave the offices?

Eph 4:11-13
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Every time you post, you just demonstrate why Jesus did this, so that people like you would not be allowed to pass along fallacious teachings.
 

newbirth

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StanJ said:
Yes, as Jesus taught, as Hebrews teaches and as Paul teaches. You seem to forget that JESUS gave the offices?

Eph 4:11-13
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Every time you post, you just demonstrate why Jesus did this, so that people like you would not be allowed to pass along fallacious teachings.
All the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, follow Christ and walk as he walked...and none of them taught a doctrine of trinity...
 

StanJ

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newbirth said:
All the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, follow Christ and walk as he walked...and none of them taught a doctrine of trinity...
Actually, they all did, until Arius brought forth his false teaching around 300 AD. What you also fail to understand is that CHRIST was the Word incarnate, so these offices were from the very beginning, not just from when Jesus was born.
You have swallowed the Arian lie, so you can't really be relied on to understand the reality of who God is, because you don't perceive in the spiritual, only by what your mind can comprehend and accept.
 

newbirth

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StanJ said:
Actually, they all did, until Arius brought forth his false teaching around 300 AD. What you also fail to understand is that CHRIST was the Word incarnate, so these offices were from the very beginning, not just from when Jesus was born.
You have swallowed the Arian lie, so you can't really be relied on to understand the reality of who God is, because you don't perceive in the spiritual, only by what your mind can comprehend and accept.
the offices were there but not teaching of a doctrine of trinity....there is no such thing in scripture...therefore you have not maintained the teachings of Christ but invented your own....if you really want to see lies look in the RCC...and her spawns...
 

StanJ

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newbirth said:
the offices were there but not teaching of a doctrine of trinity....there is no such thing in scripture...therefore you have not maintained the teachings of Christ but invented your own....if you really want to see lies look in the RCC...and her spawns...
There you go opening your mouth and inserting your foot again. The RCC also didn't start until around the same time as Arius' false teaching. You really don't know much FACT do you...just biased dogma> What denom are you from?
 

newbirth

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StanJ said:
There you go opening your mouth and inserting your foot again. The RCC also didn't start until around the same time as Arius' false teaching. You really don't know much FACT do you...just biased dogma> What denom are you from?
bro please don't talk about foot in mouth...or about who knows facts...these offices were only given with the HS beginning at pentecost...before that the Levites and the sons of Aaron were responsible for the things pertaining to God...these offices in Christ is a new thing that began at pentecost...every man can now go the throne of grace where Christ is our high priest (not our God) Heb 5
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 6
5 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

now do you see how your doctrine differs from the doctrine of Christ...there is no trinity in there...your focus is not on what God's word says but on what others say and what... denom ...others represent...I have none...God does not callus to "denoms"
 

Wormwood

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Jesus is high priest and not our God?

““Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).” (Matthew 1:23, ESV)
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1, ESV)
“waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,” (Titus 2:13, ESV)
“Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” (2 Peter 1:1, ESV)
“And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20, ESV)
“Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”” (John 20:28–29, ESV)
“To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.” (Romans 9:5, ESV)
“who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,” (Philippians 2:6, ESV)
“He who opens the breach goes up before them; they break through and pass the gate, going out by it. Their king passes on before them, the Lord at their head.” (Micah 2:13, ESV)
“In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’” (Jeremiah 23:6, ESV)
So, what Bible are you reading? He is the High Priest. He is the Son of God. He is the Alpha and Omega. He is the First and the Last. He is the Way. He is the Truth. He is the life. He is the resurrection. He is eternal life. He is the light of the world. He is the bread of life. He is true food and true drink. He is the "I am." He is the creator of all things. He is the sustainer of all things. He is the redeemer of all things. He is the author and perfecter of our faith. He is the head of the Church. He is the true vine. He is true Israel. He is our righteousness. He is our hope. He is the focus of all the Law and the prophets. All things are by him and for him. He alone receives glory. God does not share his glory with another. God does not have a sidekick that robs him of his glory and his saving power. The he is the Lord. He is God. The Bible could not be any more clear.
 

StanJ

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newbirth said:
bro please don't talk about foot in mouth...or about who knows facts...these offices were only given with the HS beginning at pentecost...before that the Levites and the sons of Aaron were responsible for the things pertaining to God...these offices in Christ is a new thing that began at pentecost...every man can now go the throne of grace where Christ is our high priest (not our God) Heb 5
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 6
5 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

now do you see how your doctrine differs from the doctrine of Christ...there is no trinity in there...your focus is not on what God's word says but on what others say and what... denom ...others represent...I have none...God does not callus to "denoms"
Actually it clearly says Jesus, so another WRONG to add to your very long list of errors. The Levites were never prophets, nor were they ever judges.
You obviously don't know what the "Order of Melchizedek" is...so try reading Hebrews 7 and pay attention to v3.

That you fail to see whenever the SON is mentioned in scripture, it is just that, God's ONLY begotten son. He is NOT singular in nature, as Heb 1:3 shows, but again you ignore scripture that shows you truth and stick only to the words that support your POV, instead of the truth that shows who our Triune God is. You are as inculcated as any cult member I have ever talked to, and obviously have NO personal relationship with the true Messiah or God.

You have no denom yet don't want me to use the word denom? You are quite confused and contradictory in your own mind.
 

newbirth

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Wormwood said:
Jesus is high priest and not our God?


So, what Bible are you reading? He is the High Priest. He is the Son of God. He is the Alpha and Omega. He is the First and the Last. He is the Way. He is the Truth. He is the life. He is the resurrection. He is eternal life. He is the light of the world. He is the bread of life. He is true food and true drink. He is the "I am." He is the creator of all things. He is the sustainer of all things. He is the redeemer of all things. He is the author and perfecter of our faith. He is the head of the Church. He is the true vine. He is true Israel. He is our righteousness. He is our hope. He is the focus of all the Law and the prophets. All things are by him and for him. He alone receives glory. God does not share his glory with another. God does not have a sidekick that robs him of his glory and his saving power. The he is the Lord. He is God. The Bible could not be any more clear.
the bible says He ascended to His God...there is one God...
 
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