"Free" Will

[Wormwood]

if restrictions exist then not free...simple...your freewill is not as free as you think.... Your choice of words are misleading...you have the power to choose your fate...if it were a freedom there would be no devil to resist...so it should be ......Free simply means "unrestricted" to choose between opposites.....which means that freedom only applies to that situation and not as a whole....example ...after choosing Christ ...one is not free to choose to do good or evil at their own will...one is commanded to do good...

Again, you are making this a semantics game. Because I am not omnipotent, I do not have freedom? Because I cannot leap tall buildings in a single bound, I am not free? "fFree will" does not mean "unrestricted" in the absolute sense. Otherwise, free will would be synonymous with being God. Obviously, this is not how theologians (or anyone else I know of) use the concept of "free will." The idea is very simple. Either God has predetermined all things prior to their creation and controls every event and decision, or human beings have the freedom to choose between opposites and are not predestined for heaven or hell prior to their birth. Either my dog has freedom to roam about the home and yard, or he is chained to a tree. It has nothing to do with my dog having all power, knowledge and complete, unrestricted ability to fly like a bird if he chooses. That is the discussion we are having here (and theologians have debated for thousands of years). Do humans have freedom to make decisions and accept/reject God's will or is everything part of God's predetermined will and humans are puppets in what God has determined prior to their creation? So, again, this is a situation where I do not think you understand the issues very well which is causing unnecessary confusion for those having a straight-forward theological discussion.

 

[FHII]

Wormwood wrote:

" Either God has predetermined all things prior to their creation and controls every event and decision, or human beings have the freedom to choose between opposites and are not predestined for heaven or hell prior to their birth. Either my dog has freedom to roam about the home and yard, or he is chained to a tree. "

Ok, you haven't responded to my post yet, but I'm sure you will when you have time. I usually like to wait for a response, but I found this statement interesting.

Eph 1 gives us a verse in which Paul says that we are predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the council of his own will. [I believe he was talking about himself and the remaining apostles, but thats another matter]. Yet, I don't think God has to control every action and event. You can eat a ham sandwich or a turkey sandwich... or skip lunch all together, for example. I do believe he will control what is pertinent to his overall will either by drastic measures or giving you natural tendencies in your character.

Well, that may mean that he wants you to spend 45 years on this planet, so he may alter your tastebuds to crave McDonalds! Or he might want you to spend 80+ years and you could have a health conscience nature. Hope you see my point.

Second, about that dog of yours. Yes, free will in the house and the yard. But of the neighborhood? He's free in the house and the yard, but he has to stay in those bounds. I agree. We are the Lord's free man. Still His, still a prisoner, but still free in his will.

Let me get back to the first point. You stated that God controls every decision and circumstance under the theory of "no free will". If I misunderstand, please correct me on your belief. However, is free will true is at ONE time God did something to alter the original will of a person?

I don't believe so if God has veto power.

 

[StanJ]

Wormwood wrote:

" Either God has predetermined all things prior to their creation and controls every event and decision, or human beings have the freedom to choose between opposites and are not predestined for heaven or hell prior to their birth. Either my dog has freedom to roam about the home and yard, or he is chained to a tree. "

Ok, you haven't responded to my post yet, but I'm sure you will when you have time. I usually like to wait for a response, but I found this statement interesting.

Eph 1 gives us a verse in which Paul says that we are predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the council of his own will. [I believe he was talking about himself and the remaining apostles, but thats another matter]. Yet, I don't think God has to control every action and event. You can eat a ham sandwich or a turkey sandwich... or skip lunch all together, for example. I do believe he will control what is pertinent to his overall will either by drastic measures or giving you natural tendencies in your character.

Well, that may mean that he wants you to spend 45 years on this planet, so he may alter your tastebuds to crave McDonalds! Or he might want you to spend 80+ years and you could have a health conscience nature. Hope you see my point.

Second, about that dog of yours. Yes, free will in the house and the yard. But of the neighborhood? He's free in the house and the yard, but he has to stay in those bounds. I agree. We are the Lord's free man. Still His, still a prisoner, but still free in his will.

Let me get back to the first point. You stated that God controls every decision and circumstance under the theory of "no free will". If I misunderstand, please correct me on your belief. However, is free will true is at ONE time God did something to alter the original will of a person?

I don't believe so if God has veto power.

1) You didn't address what you quoted WW as saying, which I believe is accurate, and
2) God only EVER predestined those He KNEW by foreknowledge would choose to do His will. There is no PREDETERMINATION as regards to who does what. We humans, as freewill agents, CHOOSE to do what we want to do. THAT is based on HOW we respond to God's drawing and the rule of the Holy Spirit in our lives. It is ALL a choice. We are NOT puppets.

 

[newbirth]

And yet, even after we have chosen Christ, and repented, and done all that is necessary, we still choose to sin.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

[newbirth]

Again, you are making this a semantics game. Because I am not omnipotent, I do not have freedom? Because I cannot leap tall buildings in a single bound, I am not free? "fFree will" does not mean "unrestricted" in the absolute sense. Otherwise, free will would be synonymous with being God. Obviously, this is not how theologians (or anyone else I know of) use the concept of "free will." The idea is very simple. Either God has predetermined all things prior to their creation and controls every event and decision, or human beings have the freedom to choose between opposites and are not predestined for heaven or hell prior to their birth. Either my dog has freedom to roam about the home and yard, or he is chained to a tree. It has nothing to do with my dog having all power, knowledge and complete, unrestricted ability to fly like a bird if he chooses. That is the discussion we are having here (and theologians have debated for thousands of years). Do humans have freedom to make decisions and accept/reject God's will or is everything part of God's predetermined will and humans are puppets in what God has determined prior to their creation? So, again, this is a situation where I do not think you understand the issues very well which is causing unnecessary confusion for those having a straight-forward theological discussion.

then you are putting your own meaning to what free means and you expect everyone to abide by what you say free is but not what free really is...if your dog is free in your home and yard..why can he not go to the neighbour 's house if he is free....that is like telling a prisoner "you are free to roam the prison cell" or telling a bird in a cage ...you are free to fly as much as you want...
you left out the part where God commands man to obey him....
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[Wormwood]

FHII,

THanks for your response. I know my comment to newlife was a bit general, but I was trying to make a point. It seems he/she is suggesting that free will can only be possessed by God. I was giving examples of what theologians and others debate under this heading from extreme sides of the debate to prove a point, namely, no one is arguing that one must possess absolute freedom to fall under the category of "free will."

There are all kinds of varying perspectives on free will and God's sovereignty. Certainly God is sovereign, and we are born in certain places and have various limitations. Also, God will accomplish His will and at times we see in Scripture that he will usurp the free will of an individual (after they have hardened their own heart) to accomplish His purposes. Yet, as a non-Calvinist, I would agree with StanJ when he says that God's predestination is based in foreknowledge of our free will choices...not by His determining our actions or creating us in such as way and shaping circumstances to make us do what he intended all along. This isn't really freedom. True freedom implies that I have the ability to choose between opposites. I can accept the Gospel or I can reject it. My decision is not merely the result of God's predetermined decision prior to the creation of the world. Sorry, got to run. I hope this helps.

 

[Wormwood]

then you are putting your own meaning to what free means and you expect everyone to abide by what you say free is but not what free really is...if your dog is free in your home and yard..why can he not go to the neighbour 's house if he is free....that is like telling a prisoner "you are free to roam the prison cell" or telling a bird in a cage ...you are free to fly as much as you want...
you left out the part where God commands man to obey him....
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I am telling you what everyone means when they discuss free will in theological circles. You should read some books on the topic and I think that will help you to get a sense of how terms are used in this context.

 

[newbirth]

Didn't you say that God has predetermined our course of action? So when God gave Adam and Eve that command, had He already predetermined that they would disobey it? You did say that everything that happens is according to His will. So, was it His will for them to eat the fruit He had told them not to eat?
If He had predetermined their decision, then they really didn't have a choice in the matter, did they? So, in reality, when they disobeyed Him, they were doing what He intended that they should. It was His will for them to disobey Him.
Now, as you also said, as a result of this, we are all slaves to sin, right? So, since God set the whole thing up, and had predetermined the outcome, it was His will for us all to be slaves of sin.
So, again, if God has pre-chosen those who will obey Him, doesn't that imply that He has also pre-determined those who will not? And since, as you say, everything that happens is according to His will, doesn't it follow that it is His will for most of humanity to suffer in hell throughout eternity?

where did I say...that God has predetermined our course of action????you keep saying thing I did not say...I know people get mixed up in these forums ...so I don't make much of it..but this is ridiculous...where did I say...everything that happens is according to His will...

 

[newbirth]

I am telling you what everyone means when they discuss free will in theological circles. You should read some books on the topic and I think that will help you to get a sense of how terms are used in this context.

no wonder you guys are confused...you are running around in theological circles....what you are saying makes no sense...you cannot change the meaning of words just like that and say that is what everyone means in theological circles...

 

[StanJ]

no wonder you guys are confused...you are running around in theological circles....what you are saying makes no sense...you cannot change the meaning of words just like that and say that is what everyone means in theological circles...

Denial and ad hominem don't prove your point child.

 

[StanJ]

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Another good example of how you DON'T know the meaning of the KJV.

 

[newbirth]

Another good example of how you DON'T know the meaning of the KJV.

How so??? If you say you are a christian a follower of Christ...and you abide in Him...He walked in the spirit and did no sin...
1 John 2:6
King James Version
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[newbirth]

Denial and ad hominem don't prove your point child.

what is your input to the discussion??? zero....I already proved my point...so telling me that theologians change the meaning of a word is rubbish...a man cannot be in prison and be free at the same time...if the context is prison...if one say they have freewill and it only apply to one aspect of their life...that is pseudo freewill...if your dog is free from the leash but is still restricted by the fence ...that is pseudo freedom

 

[logabe]

what is your input to the discussion??? zero....I already proved my point...so telling me that theologians change the meaning of a word is rubbish...a man cannot be in prison and be free at the same time...if the context is prison...if one say they have freewill and it only apply to one aspect of their life...that is pseudo freewill...if your dog is free from the leash but is still restricted by the fence ...that is pseudo freedom

Sounds like we are trying to keep the old man alive. The old man is dead and you are alive in Christ Jesus.
Do you know what makes you FREE? Knowing the TRUTH about Jesus Christ and just for the record, it is
impossible to know Him outside of the Spirit. Jesus said, you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make
you FREE.

He also said, I AM the way, the TRUTH, and the life. No man can come unto me, except the Father
which has sent me draw him. As we grow in grace, God develops His righteousness within our soul,
which causes the Christ within us to begin to take His rightful position as King within our hearts.

In essence, God begins to make our choices for us, which gives us confidence in Him and not in ourselves.
That my friend is called marriage. It is where your soul becomes one with your spirit and His, so your choice
is His.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[StanJ]

what is your input to the discussion??? zero....I already proved my point...so telling me that theologians change the meaning of a word is rubbish...a man cannot be in prison and be free at the same time...if the context is prison...if one say they have freewill and it only apply to one aspect of their life...that is pseudo freewill...if your dog is free from the leash but is still restricted by the fence ...that is pseudo freedom

LOL...actually you have NOT, you just claim you do, which shows exactly how ill equipped you are to debate ANY scriptural issue.

 

[newbirth]

Sounds like we are trying to keep the old man alive. The old man is dead and you are alive in Christ Jesus.
Do you know what makes you FREE? Knowing the TRUTH about Jesus Christ and just for the record, it is
impossible to know Him outside of the Spirit. Jesus said, you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make
you FREE.

He also said, I AM the way, the TRUTH, and the life. No man can come unto me, except the Father
which has sent me draw him. As we grow in grace, God develops His righteousness within our soul,
which causes the Christ within us to begin to take His rightful position as King within our hearts.

In essence, God begins to make our choices for us, which gives us confidence in Him and not in ourselves.
That my friend is called marriage. It is where your soul becomes one with your spirit and His, so your choice
is His.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

what does this have to do with freewill...the truth does not make you free to do as you please...it makes you free to choose either to be a servant of righteousness or a servant of sin...before the truth you were in bondage to sin...
Where does scripture say "God begins to make our choices for us" that is false teaching...

 

[newbirth]

LOL...actually you have NOT, you just claim you do, which shows exactly how ill equipped you are to debate ANY scriptural issue.

again no input whatsoever...what is your contribution to refute my point???

".a man cannot be in prison and be free at the same time...if the context is prison...if one say they have freewill and it only apply to one aspect of their life...that is pseudo freewill...if your dog is free from the leash but is still restricted by the fence ...that is pseudo freedom"...

zero..zip....nada....here is the scripture
Romans 6:18
New International Version
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

 

[StanJ]

again no input whatsoever...what is your contribution to refute my point???

".a man cannot be in prison and be free at the same time...if the context is prison...if one say they have freewill and it only apply to one aspect of their life...that is pseudo freewill...if your dog is free from the leash but is still restricted by the fence ...that is pseudo freedom"...

zero..zip....nada....here is the scripture
Romans 6:18
New International Version
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Have answered this same question to many times to do so again. Stop asking if you don't want to accept the answer...it doesn't change.

 

[newbirth]

Have answered this same question to many times to do so again. Stop asking if you don't want to accept the answer...it doesn't change.

I have not asked you this question before ...Have I???...yet you refuse to clarify the point...I understand your answer won't change...that is why you will not address the points I make....

 

[Wormwood]

what is your input to the discussion??? zero....I already proved my point...so telling me that theologians change the meaning of a word is rubbish...a man cannot be in prison and be free at the same time...if the context is prison...if one say they have freewill and it only apply to one aspect of their life...that is pseudo freewill...if your dog is free from the leash but is still restricted by the fence ...that is pseudo freedom

This isnt a redefinition of words. If someone says, "We have freedom to vote" they are not indicating absolute freedom. This does not mean infants can vote. Nor does it mean that a person can vote whenever they wish. It means, "When the time comes for votes to be collected for the candidates, those registered citizens of legal age may vote if they choose." It is silly to think that anytime the word "free" is used that this mandates absolute, unrestricted ability. The word is never used that way. In fact, if you want to press your semantics game to try to win a pointless point, the definition of the adjective "free" is:

1. 
   
   
   
   not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
2. 
   
   
   not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded.
   
   
   
   
   
   

Neither of these definitions teach absolute freedom. It simply means to be unimpeded and not under the control of another. I am "free" to break God's laws. God does not force me to break them, nor does he force me to keep them. I do not have to have all power and all knowledge to express free will, or to act according to my own desires. God has granted us that right. Now, I'm done with the semantics game. If you want to discuss the topic, please do. Stop derailing the issue with word definitions when everyone else discussing the topic is fully aware of what is implied by the term, "free will."