"Free" Will

[Barrd]

bro clearly you do not understand scripture...Adam and Eve were not given choices they were commanded not to eat the fruit of a certain tree...they disobeyed the command...as result all men born after Adam was a slave to disobedience...God in His wisdom through the laws and the prophets was teaching men how to obey him....in the end time He sent His Son as the ultimate example of obedience...God is not in the business of giving choices ...He gives commands.....man with his desire to disobey is the one who make choices...Like you are now making a choice to hold on to your false doctrine...and disobeying the commands of God...

Let me see if I understand this.
Adam and Eve were not given choices, they were commanded not to eat the fruit of a certain tree.
So, was it God's will for them not to eat of that tree, or was God commanding them not to eat, but it was really His will for them to eat?
And now we are all slaves to disobedience. So, is it His will for us all to be slaves to disobedience? By disobeying Him, are we actually doing His will? Are we obeying Him by disobeying Him, or when we obey Him, we are actually disobeying Him?
How can I defy the will of God, if it is not the will of God for me to defy the will of God, or does God want me to defy Him, so by defying Him, I am really not defying Him, because it was His will all along for me to defy Him?


Maybe you can clear this up for me?

 

[Barrd]

God gives commands...man makes choices....God gives man the power to make the right choices...

The power to make the right choice would imply that we also have the power to make the wrong choice.
Ergo, we have free will to choose right or wrong.
Am I right or wrong?
You choose....

 

[newbirth]

Let me see if I understand this.
Adam and Eve were not given choices, they were commanded not to eat the fruit of a certain tree.
So, was it God's will for them not to eat of that tree, or was God commanding them not to eat, but it was really His will for them to eat?
And now we are all slaves to disobedience. So, is it His will for us all to be slaves to disobedience? By disobeying Him, are we actually doing His will? Are we obeying Him by disobeying Him, or when we obey Him, we are actually disobeying Him?
How can I defy the will of God, if it is not the will of God for me to defy the will of God, or does God want me to defy Him, so by defying Him, I am really not defying Him, because it was His will all along for me to defy Him?


Maybe you can clear this up for me?

Adam and Eve were given a command
I never said anything about God will for them to eat or not to eat...
I never said it was God will for us to be disobedient
I never said..By disobeying Him, are we actually doing His will
I never said anything about defying God....not a word...

can you please quote me word for word....on these questions that you are asking????

 

[newbirth]

The power to make the right choice would imply that we also have the power to make the wrong choice.
Ergo, we have free will to choose right or wrong.
Am I right or wrong?
You choose....

"The power to make the right choice would imply that we also have the power to make the wrong choice".....yes the power to do right comes from God which we get when we receive Christ....the power to do wrong we got from Adam....it is not a free will to choose...it is a power to choose the right you did not have that power before......if you were free to choose there would be a choice not to choose...without a consequence....but your inaction is a choice...

 

[Barrd]

Adam and Eve were given a command
I never said anything about God will for them to eat or not to eat...
I never said it was God will for us to be disobedient
I never said..By disobeying Him, are we actually doing His will
I never said anything about defying God....not a word...

can you please quote me word for word....on these questions that you are asking????

Either everything happens as the predetermined will of God, or it doesn't.
Which is it?

 

[Barrd]

"The power to make the right choice would imply that we also have the power to make the wrong choice".....yes the power to do right comes from God which we get when we receive Christ....the power to do wrong we got from Adam....it is not a free will to choose...it is a power to choose the right you did not have that power before......if you were free to choose there would be a choice not to choose...without a consequence....but your inaction is a choice...

Maybe you could explain to me what is the difference between having the power to choose and having free will to choose?
Sounds like you are playing that age old internet game...."Semantic Antics"....

 

[StanJ]

A slave is set before one evil master what freewill does he have???the master commands he obeys....the same slave is set before two masters one good one evil he now has the opportunity to choose his own master...what freewill does he have???...is he not still a slave??? all choice requires is options...

Yep, and as a slave to SE, your only choice is to prevaricate, despite clear evidence of your cognitive dissonance.

 

[StanJ]

Yes, exactly! God ain't giving them truth. If he did give them truth, they wouldn't be damned.

This is why Jesus spoke in parables. If he didn't, they'd have understood.

Sure, the disciples didn't understand the parables at first either, but jesus explained it to them. He didn't explain the parables to everyone.

Because they were designed to implant the seed, as Jesus taught in Luke 8. As He clearly taught, the fertile soil will cause them to grow to maturity. It's a supernatural process, not a physical or mental one.

 

[Wormwood]

Jesus spoke in parables because many of his listeners refused to repent and be baptized by John. If you look at the Isaiah passage that Jesus quotes, he speaks in parables in order to "blind" and "harden" so people would not repent. This passage comes from a similar scenario in the OT. Isaiah was given a message of judgment on a nation that had ample opportunity to repent. However, their refusal brought about a message of judgment. God was going to make them like the deaf, dumb, and blind idols they worshiped. This is not a passage proving divine election apart from human decision-making. God is not hardening or condemning humans as a unilateral act based in pan-determinism. Actually, I think it teaches the opposite. Human free choices which grieve God is what leads to divine judgment in the form of making blind and deaf (cf. John 9:41).

 

[StanJ]

Jesus spoke in parables because many of his listeners refused to repent and be baptized by John. If you look at the Isaiah passage that Jesus quotes, he speaks in parables in order to "blind" and "harden" so people would not repent. This passage comes from a similar scenario in the OT. Isaiah was given a message of judgment on a nation that had ample opportunity to repent. However, their refusal brought about a message of judgment. God was going to make them like the deaf, dumb, and blind idols they worshiped. This is not a passage proving divine election apart from human decision-making. God is not hardening or condemning humans as a unilateral act based in pan-determinism. Actually, I think it teaches the opposite. Human free choices which grieve God is what leads to divine judgment in the form of making blind and deaf (cf. John 9:41).

I think the way Pharaoh reacted to Moses by giving in and then becoming obstinate, makes your point.

 

[newbirth]

Either everything happens as the predetermined will of God, or it doesn't.
Which is it?

Ecclesiastes 7:17
Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?
God is not restricted or controlled by anything...

 

[newbirth]

Yep, and as a slave to SE, your only choice is to prevaricate, despite clear evidence of your cognitive dissonance.

there is nothing as "only choice" choice depicts options ...what am I evading...???if you disagree with what I posted...you can oppose it point by point...and prove that I don't know what I am speaking about...

 

[newbirth]

Maybe you could explain to me what is the difference between having the power to choose and having free will to choose?
Sounds like you are playing that age old internet game...."Semantic Antics"....

Freewill is not bounded by anything...no restrictions...
Choice is restricted to the number of options...


free
frē/
adjective
adjective: free; comparative adjective: freer; superlative adjective: freest

1. 
   
   
   1.
   
   
   not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
   "I have no ambitions other than to have a happy life and be free"
   
   
   • 
     
     
     (of a state or its citizens or institutions) subject neither to foreign domination nor to despotic government.
     "a free press"
     
     
     synonyms:
     
     independent, self-governing, self-governed, self-ruling, self-determining, nonaligned, sovereign, autonomous;
     
     
     democratic
     "a citizen of a free nation"
     
     
     
     
     
     
     antonyms:
     
     dependent
     
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     not or no longer confined or imprisoned.
     "the researchers set the birds free"
     
     
     synonyms:
     
     on the loose, at liberty, at large; More
     
     
     loose, unconfined, unbound, untied, unchained, untethered, unshackled, unfettered, unrestrained
     
     "the killer is still free"
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     antonyms:
     
     captive
     
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     historical
     not a slave.
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     able or permitted to take a specified action.
     "you are free to leave"
     
     
     synonyms:
     
     allowed, permitted; More
     
     
     able, in a position to
     
     "you are free to leave"
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     antonyms:
     
     unable
     
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     denoting an ethnic or political group actively opposing an occupying or invading force, in particular the groups that continued resisting the Germans in World War II after the fall of their countries.
     
     
     
   
   
   
   
   
2. 
   
   
   2.
   
   
   not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded.
   "she lifted the cat free"
   
   
   synonyms:
   
   unimpeded, unobstructed, unrestricted, unhampered, clear, open,
   
   
   
   
   
   

choice
CHois/
noun
noun: choice; plural noun: choices
1.
an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
"the choice between good and evil"

synonyms:

option, alternative, possible course of action


"you have no other choice"

 

[Barrd]

Freewill is not bounded by anything...no restrictions...
Choice is restricted to the number of options...


free
frē/
adjective
adjective: free; comparative adjective: freer; superlative adjective: freest

1. 
   
   
   1.
   
   
   not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
   "I have no ambitions other than to have a happy life and be free"
   
   
   • 
     
     
     (of a state or its citizens or institutions) subject neither to foreign domination nor to despotic government.
     "a free press"
     
     
     
   
   
   
   
   

I am a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven. I am not subject to any foreign domination, and my King says that His yoke is easy, and His burden light.

not or no longer confined or imprisoned.
"the researchers set the birds free"
synonyms: on the loose, at liberty, at large; More


loose, unconfined, unbound, untied, unchained, untethered, unshackled, unfettered, unrestrained

"the killer is still free"




antonyms: captive

I was confined within the chains of sin and death, but my King has set me free from that.

historical
not a slave.

Some would call me His slave, but He calls me His child.

able or permitted to take a specified action.

I am free to leave at any time. However, I am very happy where I am.

antonyms: unable

I am able to do all things through Christ Who strengthens me.

denoting an ethnic or political group actively opposing an occupying or invading force, in particular the groups that continued resisting the Germans in World War II after the fall of their countries.

I belong to the group that is actively opposing the occupying force of sin in the world. I have a mandate from my King to shine His light into the dark corners of this world, and to work to preserve that which is good.

not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded.
"she lifted the cat free"
synonyms: unimpeded, unobstructed, unrestricted, unhampered, clear, open,

I am not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed in any way. I am unimpeded.

choice
CHois/
noun
noun: choice; plural noun: choices
1.
an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
"the choice between good and evil"
synonyms: option, alternative, possible course of action


"you have no other choice"

I have chosen to be a citizen of this Kingdom.

 

[Barrd]

Adam and Eve were given a command
I never said anything about God will for them to eat or not to eat...
I never said it was God will for us to be disobedient
I never said..By disobeying Him, are we actually doing His will
I never said anything about defying God....not a word...

can you please quote me word for word....on these questions that you are asking????

Didn't you say that God has predetermined our course of action? So when God gave Adam and Eve that command, had He already predetermined that they would disobey it? You did say that everything that happens is according to His will. So, was it His will for them to eat the fruit He had told them not to eat?
If He had predetermined their decision, then they really didn't have a choice in the matter, did they? So, in reality, when they disobeyed Him, they were doing what He intended that they should. It was His will for them to disobey Him.
Now, as you also said, as a result of this, we are all slaves to sin, right? So, since God set the whole thing up, and had predetermined the outcome, it was His will for us all to be slaves of sin.
So, again, if God has pre-chosen those who will obey Him, doesn't that imply that He has also pre-determined those who will not? And since, as you say, everything that happens is according to His will, doesn't it follow that it is His will for most of humanity to suffer in hell throughout eternity?

 

[Wormwood]

Freewill is not bounded by anything...no restrictions...
Choice is restricted to the number of options...


free
frē/
adjective
adjective: free; comparative adjective: freer; superlative adjective: freest

1. 
   
   
   1.
   
   
   not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
   "I have no ambitions other than to have a happy life and be free"
   
   
   • 
     
     
     (of a state or its citizens or institutions) subject neither to foreign domination nor to despotic government.
     "a free press"
     synonyms: independent, self-governing, self-governed, self-ruling, self-determining, nonaligned, sovereign, autonomous;
     
     
     democratic
     "a citizen of a free nation"
     
     
     
     antonyms: dependent
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     not or no longer confined or imprisoned.
     "the researchers set the birds free"
     synonyms: on the loose, at liberty, at large; More
     
     
     loose, unconfined, unbound, untied, unchained, untethered, unshackled, unfettered, unrestrained
     
     "the killer is still free"
     
     
     
     
     antonyms: captive
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     historical
     not a slave.
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     able or permitted to take a specified action.
     "you are free to leave"
     synonyms: allowed, permitted; More
     
     
     able, in a position to
     
     "you are free to leave"
     
     
     
     
     antonyms: unable
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     denoting an ethnic or political group actively opposing an occupying or invading force, in particular the groups that continued resisting the Germans in World War II after the fall of their countries.
     
     
     
   
   
   
   
   
2. 
   
   
   2.
   
   
   not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded.
   "she lifted the cat free"
   synonyms: unimpeded, unobstructed, unrestricted, unhampered, clear, open,
   
   
   
   
   

choice
CHois/
noun
noun: choice; plural noun: choices
1.
an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
"the choice between good and evil"
synonyms: option, alternative, possible course of action


"you have no other choice"

No theologian defines "free will" in the sense of absolutely unbound with no restrictions. Of course we are all finite and are limited based upon our intellects, culture, language, etc. Free will simply means the ability to choose between opposites. It is the idea that God does not determine our outcomes but gives us freedom to choose our own fates.

 

[newbirth]

No theologian defines "free will" in the sense of absolutely unbound with no restrictions. Of course we are all finite and are limited based upon our intellects, culture, language, etc. Free will simply means the ability to choose between opposites. It is the idea that God does not determine our outcomes but gives us freedom to choose our own fates.

if restrictions exist then not free...simple...your freewill is not as free as you think.... Your choice of words are misleading...you have the power to choose your fate...if it were a freedom there would be no devil to resist...so it should be ......Free simply means "unrestricted" to choose between opposites.....which means that freedom only applies to that situation and not as a whole....example ...after choosing Christ ...one is not free to choose to do good or evil at their own will...one is commanded to do good...

 

[Barrd]

if restrictions exist then not free...simple...your freewill is not as free as you think.... Your choice of words are misleading...you have the power to choose your fate...if it were a freedom there would be no devil to resist...so it should be ......Free simply means "unrestricted" to choose between opposites.....which means that freedom only applies to that situation and not as a whole....example ...after choosing Christ ...one is not free to choose to do good or evil at their own will...one is commanded to do good...

And yet, even after we have chosen Christ, and repented, and done all that is necessary, we still choose to sin.

 

[FHII]

Jesus spoke in parables because many of his listeners refused to repent and be baptized by John. If you look at the Isaiah passage that Jesus quotes, he speaks in parables in order to "blind" and "harden" so people would not repent....... This is not a passage proving divine election apart from human decision-making. God is not hardening or condemning humans as a unilateral act based in pan-determinism. Actually, I think it teaches the opposite. Human free choices which grieve God is what leads to divine judgment in the form of making blind and deaf (cf. John 9:41).

I have no problem with any of that, wormwood. Yet in both cases God clearlt claims responsibility for blinding them. I understand they were already blind, but in both cases God kept them that way when he even said if they understood their sins would've been forgiven. In both cases God took action.

I'll re-read the definition of free will you posted, but I've read sentiments fro many free will believers that indicate God in no way interferes with hunan decision making. I simply don't believe that and there are too many instances in the bible that show otherwise.

I think your definition haf to do with God not predetermining who's saved. I don't believe that either since he declared the end times from the beginning. I believe that also is so with who's going to get the job done.

 

[StanJ]

...what am I evading...???if you disagree with what I posted...you can oppose it point by point...and prove that I don't know what I am speaking about...

The same thing you are here, and you have done that far to many times to count.