Terrible news. I will say a prayer for them.
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Onwards in the LORD . HE is our hope and our salvation .
I have not abandoned anyone.
But in the Bible remember some people had to be banished out of Israel for good reason. but we see with the prodigal Son he came back ? so yes the door is always open. but such a one had to leave.
a Christian does not tolerate everything you know, for good reason.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If they are Christians, they should have nothing to do with politics. This world has one ruler and all those emerged in political matters should understand that Jesus said his kingdom is “not of this world”.
We are told to be “no part of this world” (John 18:36) because all of its political activities are the works of its ruler, for now. (1 John 5:19) Once God’s Kingdom rules this earth, things will go back to the way they were meant to be. (Revelation 21:2-4)
So the many Christians in politics like Wilberforce, Shaftesbury etc were being disobedient when they worked for the good of those being exploited.
You are happy with slavery, 12 hour days at work, of children working full time, of no education available, for abuse in the treatment of the mentally ill, of prisoners, the list of reforms motivated by Christians and obtained through political action goes on.
This post started with the abuse by the legal system today of a Christian.
How would you affect change?
How are you changing societies views of Christians?
Are you aware of just how much change Christians have in society?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I didn’t say that. Even the apostle Paul appealed to Caesar......but Caesar wasn’t a Christian and didn’t pretend to be one like Herod did. There is nothing wrong with trying to make a difference for those who are suffering.....it’s just that the political machinery is under the control of the one who rules this world....that is pretty obvious IMO.
When satan attempted to lead Jesus astray after his baptism, he tempted him with “all the kingdoms of the world” and said they could all be his if Jesus just did one act of worship before him. He said that all these kingdoms had been “delivered to him” and he could give rulership to whomever he pleased......(Luke 4:5-8)
Jesus did not deny that these kingdoms were the possession of the devil. That being the case, no Christian would want to be part of that arrangement. We are told to be “no part of the world” because “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”. (1 John 5:19)
The world will do what the world will do...there are nations that have to deal with all those things even now because the governments are wicked and offer no assistance to the poor, and turn a blind eye to the exploitation of children. The UN Charter on the International Rights of the Child was a joke. It was ratified in 1988...but here we are in 2023 and children are still being exploited under evil governments. Slave labor produces a huge percentage of what is supplied to the west.
How did Jesus expect to affect change?
Was he out to change society? Did he care what the Romans thought of him? Did he care what the Jewish leaders thought of him? Did his apostles protest when they were arrested?
The Roman Empire tolerated Jews and when Christianity weakened later on, they absorbed them. The RCC became a friend and supporter of the political system, thereby losing friendship with God. (James 4:4)
Genuine Christians understood the need to separate from politics and to help one another, rather than relying on the system to provide for them, they saw the needs of their fellow Christians and filled them. Christians affect change by changing themselves and encouraging others to spread the word and the love, as Jesus said in John 13:34-35....
“I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”
We are not charged with changing the world....God will do that by means of his kingdom....we are charged with changing ourselves into the kind of person Jesus was.....a perfect model of faith and obedience. (1 Peter 2:21)
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Well...you are wrong. I strongly disagree.
Christians should not stick their heads in the sand as far as politics goes.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
So I guess you don't drive a car, go to grocery stores, etc etc
You don't vote, you don't get involved in anything.
This forum is part of this world, you are on the internet.
Why are you here if you should not be part of this world?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Where will I find that in the scriptures? This world is doomed and has been from the start of satan’s reign. This is an object lesson of monumental importance......if you miss its purpose, you will be on the losing side, wondering what happened. Calling yourself a Christian, doesn’t make you one. If you are ‘friends with the world’ (meaning in bed with the political system) then you will find yourself no friend of God. (James 4:4)
When you have prayed the Lord’s Prayer and you said “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.....what do you think those words mean? What is the ‘coming’ of God’s kingdom?...and how is God’s will “done on earth as it is in heaven”?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Jesus was the model.....did he ride a donkey? (The common mode of transport among the poor back then) Did he eat food bought at the market? Judas was the treasurer for the 12 as a group. He held the money donated for the work Jesus and his apostles did.
Did Jesus or his apostles ever get involved in politics because his people were oppressed by a powerful and godless regime? Did they try to escape or protest when the Pharisees had them arrested? Did Christ’s followers hold riots in the streets because of the injustices they suffered?
I have never voted once in my life.....obeying my Lord....being “no part” of this world’s rulership. I am not an opposer of any government, but a peaceful, law abiding citizen......a threat to no one, because my stance is completely neutral. The world doesn’t need me to contribute anything except to abide by the laws of the land.
The internet is a mode of communication, like the written word used to be....a source of information. This forum is a discussion board and I am here to discuss the Bible....why are you here?
Everywhere, have no never read those sarcastic comments by God about a man cutting g a tree down, selecting a nice part to make an idol out of and then cooking his dinner on the rest of it.
Or Paul taking to new Christians from pagan backgrounds, or Jesus telling us that the world will know we are his disciples by how we love.
Do you love the oppressed, abused and neglected?
How do you love them?
Wilberforce and shaftsbury showed their love for millions by labouring in politics for the good of those unknown largely non-Christian people.
Do you support missionaries? They will change how converts live and change there lifestyle for the better.
Ever witnessed to a non-Christian neighbour? What changes would happen in their life if they became Christian.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
By giving them the Bible’s hope for the future......the world that will exist when the present world has “passed away”....a world of God’s making, by undoing all the damage that satan’s rebellion has caused to the human race.
I think you need to understand the difference between “Christianity” and humanitarianism. Many devoted humanitarians are atheists. One does not need to be a Christian to help their fellow man or their fellow creatures.
All Christians are charged with preaching the message of the kingdom. (Matt 28:19-20) Those who accept the message change themselves (with God’s help) to become model citizens in their own lands. Former criminals, alcoholics and drug addicts have accepted the Christian message and transformed themselves to become “footstep followers of Christ”.....this does not change the world, but changes the way they view it.....no longer in hopelessness.....but looking forward to the fulfillment of God’s promises. (Rev 21:2-4)
Many times, as I have been a student and teacher of the scriptures for over 50 years. Their transformation, with the aid of God’s spirit, changes their life, but it does not change this doomed and dying world that is about to be destroyed as surely as God destroyed the world of the ungodly in Noah’s day. (Matt 24:37-39; 2 Peter 2:5-6)
The Bible says that it is God who will change this world by.....changing who rules it....
I asked you the meaning of the Lord’s Prayer, but you didn’t answer me....why?
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No one just has to live in a culture influenced by Christian morality.
There is nothing in atheistic philosophy that says do good to others, rather it is dog eat dog.
You have not understood anything about my references to Willberforce of Shaftesbury.
They changed the World for better by there work which was motivated by love.
Your kingdom come your will be done! And how do you know that God's will is not for you to be a force for good in the world.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No one can argue that “dog eat dog” is a description of humanity alienated from God, but it doesn’t mean that all unbelievers are wicked or cannot be a force for good in the world. You keep mentioning Wilberforce and Shaftesbury like their names mean something to people outside of the UK.....there have been many highly motivated humanitarians who were also “Christians” in their ethics....yet as I mentioned, some nations don’t have their Wilberforces or Shaftesburys to advocate for them. The very conditions you mentioned that these men fought to bring about was commendable, and yet Christ never told us to try and change the world.....God will change the world when his Kingdom “comes” and destroys every vestige of wicked human rulership under satan’s Influence.
Daniel 2:44 is a prophesy about the current ruling powers, so we know that humans cannot change who rules and influences the rulers....only God can do that.
I have, but these names are historical, not biblical. There have never been genuine Christian politicians. “No part of the world” means no part of how it is ruled when the devil holds sway over mankind. When the Bible says that the “whole world” is ruled by the devil, that leaves no part of it that isn’t. (1 John 5:19) Can God influence these rulers when it suits his purpose....Bible history shows that he did many times.
The world has many “good” people in it, but God never said he was going to save “good” people....he will save obedient ones.....those who can do as God tells them. After all, the Bible is a book about faithful ones “doing” God’s will, following his commands to the letter, without making excuses for why they didn’t. Think of Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his son.....as horribly difficult as that command was, he attempted to follow it without question, because he trusted his God and was always obedient to him.
Hebrews 11:17-19...
“By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son— 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 19 But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way.”
So with faith that God always has everything under his control, Abraham was willing to do the unthinkable because he knew that his God always had a reason for his actions, even if he didn’t understand them at the time.
Christ did not command us to change the world....he taught us to pray for God’s Kingdom to “come” so that God’s will can be “done on earth as it is in heaven”. God is the one who will change this world’s rulership and bring humankind back to his first purpose....the very reason why he put us here on planet earth in the first place. So many are focused on ‘going to heaven’, when God never intended for any humans to go to heaven when he created us. Our everlasting life was meant to be right here, taking care of the earth, it’s creatures and each other, whilst enjoying the wonders of creation in paradise conditions, for all eternity.
No one is disputing that, but how far can human efforts go when so much of the world is still suffering political corruption, commercial exploitation, orchestrated ill health, starvation and war? Do you have any idea of how corrupt these governments are, conducting things behind the scenes to bring about the greatest “tribulation” in the history of mankind...? Jesus foretold it, and we are living at the time it will take place. (Matthew 24: 21-22)
Again, no one is saying we can’t be a force for good.....but like Jesus, we do that one soul at a time, changing lives despite what the world is doing....showing them the hope of the “new earth” which will be ruled by the “new heaven”.......for the first time, humans will have God as their ruler with his Christ at the helm, ably supported by his elect, directing mankind back to God in reconciliation.
“I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
This is what faithful ones can look forward to.....no man can bring this about, no matter how noble his efforts.
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I live in the world, I read the news, watch TV, talk to people and join many campaigns, support missionaries etc etc.
Just because the world is full of people in societies and cultures that hate God is no reason not to do good.
Yes there is no command to change the world or one's country, but there are two relevant commands.
To preach the gospel and to love others.
As James says what good is it if one says to the hungry, go I wish you well fed and one does nothing.
As for willberforce his actions affected the whole western world and Shaftesbury affected all Countries that were part of the UK, in ending child labour.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I gave up watching the controlled media, manipulating gullible people who believe everything they see and hear on the NEWS. The only “NEWS” you get is what you are told to believe. The one who controls the media, controls the world.
Again, I have never disputed that, but “doing good” as a Christian, is different to “doing good” as a humanitarian. The motives are not the same.
Yes Jesus told us to preach the “good news (gospel) of the Kingdom” but when I ask Christians what the “good news of the kingdom” is exactly, I often get very different responses or blank stares.
In a nutshell, can you tell me, what is “the kingdom of God” that is to “come”? And what is the “good news” about it?
If this is the message that must be “preached in all the inhabited earth” before “the end” comes, (Matthew 24:14)....what is it “the end” of?
James 2:15-17
“If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.”
This is not a blanket suggestion to simply help the poor and needy.....it is true Christianity at work.....caring for our own brothers and sisters first, then if there is a need to help others also. Charity work is not commanded by Jesus because God is allowing the conditions that cause these problems....do you know why? It is so important to understand why our powerful Creator, who could end all the poverty and suffering in the world with a wave of his hand....hasn’t for thousands of years. There is a very good reason, and it’s why we can never solve these issues on our own. We are enduring an object lesson that began in Eden when a usurper wanted to take over control of the world and become its god and ruler. God handed the now defective human race over to the god they chose, and allowed him to prove that he could do a better job. God can not interfere in this lesson by making things better because that would destroy the basis for the whole lesson. The devil was on his own, but since Eden, he has attracted many recruits, both human and angelic to help him spread his evil agenda.
Satan is proving what a complete and utter failure he is, especially when Yahweh has allowed him to try every trick in the book to hoodwink humans into thinking they don’t need Yahweh to make their lives successful. A truly successful life is one of contentment and happiness...but this world has tried to promote the idea that materialism is the key to happiness....wealth and fame are sought, but happiness eludes the rich and famous because “things” can never make you happy....only a solid relationship with Yahweh and love for your fellow man can do that. So we patiently wait for the object lesson to be over, doing what good we can individually, taking care of our own first and offering the good news of something better to come for those who seek the truth and embrace it. This is what we are commanded to do. (Matthew 10:11-14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Human efforts are useless because the need keeps growing, and the number of people who need care keeps rising, so that humanitarian efforts fail. Refugees try to resettle in other countries, but they often bring their problems with them. The rich and famous wallow in their useless material world whilst children are exploited and people die of starvation or sickness, for want of some freely available medicines.
Only Yahweh can fix what is wrong at the grass roots level....he will eliminate the cause of human suffering and reintroduce his rulership to mankind....the one we should have enjoyed all this time......if only Adam and his wife had remained obedient, evil would never have entered our lives.
In my personal experience, I find people get bogged down in minor details, but never have a grasp of the big picture....it alters everything. You can “let go...and let God” do what he must until the lesson is over.
We are almost there.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
So.....a poor hungry person running into a bad situation, knocking on your door for help, will be send away by you.
And you would tell that person "It is God's will that you are suffering."
What kind of "Christianity" do you follow?
Typical heartless cult attitude.
And I am reading this garbage on a Christian Forum, written by a "Christian".
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