Freemasonry

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4Jesus

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What should not be forgotten is the connection between the rituals of the Mormon Temple and Freemasonry:

'Some of the similarities are rather superficial, and thus less significant. Both rituals....
  • take place in "temples"
  • require special clothing
  • involve oaths
  • consist of moral and historical instruction, presented dramatically
  • are not public; for the initiated only
  • present "secret" knowledge
  • require oaths of secrecy
  • give the initiate a "new name"
  • involve several levels of advancement
  • have a grip, sign, and name at each step of advancement
  • have three penalties indicating how life may be taken*
  • involve special symbols, such as the compass and the square
Some of the similarities are so striking, however, that their relationship is unmistakable. They are given here in no particular order, since the order of presentation in both ceremonies differs slightly:... (see chart below)

Conclusion
Even Masonic scholars and historians admit that the Masonic rituals did not originate in Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem (as the Masonic legend relates), but were an outgrowth of the European builders' guilds of the late Middle Ages. This weakens the Mormon belief that the endowment ritual was given to Adam in the Garden of Eden. It seems much more obvious that Joseph Smith used basic elements from the 19th century Masonic ritual, and the Mormon endowment ritual is not ancient at all. The fact that the endowment has changed so much since its introduction in Nauvoo in 1842 also belies the Mormon claim that Joseph Smith was restoring the purity of the original (Adamic) ceremony.'

Freemasonry and the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony

*Murders were permitted and practiced by Mormons.

I'm not familiar with the connection between the two. I'll have to look into it. The last few examples in the list you gave are rather eye-opening for me concerning Mormonism.

I don't have much of an opinion on Mormonism, but what I do think is: anything that has a "religion"/"following" built around it from the last couple of hundred of years, is too recent, and should be disregarded, or at least less of a priority, for the information that we have in the NT and OT, which surrounds the Messiah.

Thanks, I'll check out the info.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I'm not familiar with the connection between the two. I'll have to look into it. The last few examples in the list you gave are rather eye-opening for me concerning Mormonism.

I don't have much of an opinion on Mormonism, but what I do think is: anything that has a "religion"/"following" built around it from the last couple of hundred of years, is too recent, and should be disregarded, or at least less of a priority, for the information that we have in the NT and OT, which surrounds the Messiah.

Thanks, I'll check out the info.
See my previous post, also pasted below.

For big picture here: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is 100% about Jesus Christ, our Savior, the Son of God. That literally the core foundation of who I am.
Actual LDS Christian (nicknamed "Mormon" here).

Short answer: No.

The FreeMasonary and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are two completely different organizations. Both of which really don't like having the folks mix them up. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is focused on Christ, all folks welcome and teaches those one set of beliefs. FreeMasonary is a fraternity that has people of all theological beliefs.

The avenue axe-grinders will (falsely) sell this mix up is to misconstrue one of the three religious rituals LDS Christian undergo in the temple. This ritual is focused on the Plan of Salvation, talking about the Creation, Atonement, Resurrection, and entrance into Christ's kingdom. It has a long (~2 hour) theology presentation going over this, highly symbolic, and very much personal revelation focused to. The presentation of this has actually change through time. Anyway, the way an axe-grinder will miscontue things is to take a few symbols out of context (including deleting all of the Christ-centric focus), highlight that outward resemblance to FreeMasonary and a historical connection, and try to convince you that they are both worshipping the devil. It doesn't remotely match when you look at the meaning, context, or any part of the whole picture.

As always, if any wants me to talk me about this / any specific aspect, feel free to ask.
 
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4Jesus

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Sorry - I miss posts sometimes. I was raised Catholic and now that I'm a Christian I don't believe in the way Mary is idolized. I don't know how that got started but there is nothing Scriptural that I can see for it.

What I don't understand about Catholics and Mary, is how they think they aren't idolizing her? The statues that are everywhere, the paintings of her congregants have, the Fatima apparition, the prayers to her instead of to God-the-Father or God-the-Son, all sum to idolizing her. Yet most can't see that it is idolizing.

I think the "divine feminine" is an old belief, all the way back to Egypt. It was then probably carried over by Greece and Rome. When Mary was blessed to be a part of the immaculate conception, and then when Roman Catholicism began, the two concepts morphed into each other and has been built up to what we see today.
 

Jane_Doe22

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What I don't understand about Catholics and Mary, is how they think they aren't idolizing her? The statues that are everywhere, the paintings of her congregants have, the Fatima apparition, the prayers to her instead of to God-the-Father or God-the-Son, all sum to idolizing her. Yet most can't see that it is idolizing.
It is viewed as honoring, not worshiping.
 
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4Jesus

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I was reading an article yesterday about how evil America has gotten; I'll post it below. I had a relative in the Iraq war and he told me of how he couldn't get the smell of burning flesh out of his nostrils. We're far removed from the ugliness but TRUMP HAS CONTINUED THESE UGLY WARS. PLEASE RE-THINK SUPPORTING A MAN WHO IS SENDING YOUNG AMERICANS INTO FOREIGN COUNTRIES UNDER FALSE PRETENSES THAT TURN INTO HUMAN MEAT GRINDERS FOR THE YOUNG AMERICANS BUT ALSO THE YOUNG CHILDREN OF THE VILLAGES THEY ATTACK.

WHERE IN THE NAME OF GOD IS OUR HEART? IS IT OKAY AS LONG AS IT'S NOT HAPPENING TO US?

I hope Brakelite comes on this thread because he showed how it fit with Revelations.

USA Pretend” Unmasked
By S. Brian Willson
Global Research

f4180436-5f8b-4a81-b713-d70fbdad9e02.jpg
Viet Nam – Epiphany for the USA

There was a moment in Viet Nam when I questioned whether everything I had been taught about “America” was one big fabricated lie – a huge pretend. It was April 1969, and I had just experienced witnessing the aftermath of a series of bombings of supposed military targets. They were in fact inhabited, undefended villages where virtually everyone in those villages perished from low flying bombings, that included napalming. The majority of dead – murdered – were young burned children. On several occasions I observed those bodies up close, sickened by the sight, now burdened by the criminal nature of the US war. The policy of accumulating massive numbers of body counts was an inkling of the Grand Lie. Reading the entrance sign to my squadron in-country headquarters, “Welcome to Indian Country,” was a first clue.

My duty station was the “home” of the fighter-bombers and pilots who followed orders to destroy those “enemy targets”, i.e., villages. I was the USAF night security commander following orders to protect those soldiers and planes from mortar and sapper attacks.

A few days later I was reading an article in Stars and Stripes, an official, independent newspaper for soldiers, reporting on a recent Supreme Court decision (Street v. New York, 1969) that upheld the right of desecrating our “sacred” symbol – the US flag. During a period of increased burnings of the US American flag in protests of the US wars against African-Americans at home, and Asians abroad, an African-American veteran recipient of a Bronze Star, Sidney Street, publicly burned his personal flag on a New York City street corner for which he was arrested and convicted.

Depressed, I pondered how it is that one could be arrested for burning a piece of cloth – even a national symbol – that represented an official policy of criminally burning innocent human beings, including large numbers of young children, while the pilot-perpetrators were commended, and whom, in my duties I was protecting? Initially suicidal, I had difficulty wrapping my head around this dystopian nightmare. I was in psychic shock from extreme cognitive dissonance.

Our behavior against the Vietnamese, a nation of peasants with one-sixth the population of the USA, one-thirtieth its size, certainly must rank as one of the worst of a number of barbarisms in the 20th Century. The US left 26 million bomb craters, sprayed 21 million gallons of DNA-altering chemical warfare on the landscape and people, murdered some 6 million Southeast Asians, destroyed by bombing over 13,000 of Viet Nam’s 21,000 villages, 950 churches and pagodas, 350 clearly marked hospitals, 3,000 high schools and universities, 15,000 bridges, etc.

Why all this overwhelming firepower and destruction? Incredulously, to prevent the Vietnamese from enjoying their self-determination, absurdly touted as necessary to stop “communism.” Does there in fact exist a kind of psychopathy in our cultural DNA? Though I hadn’t fired a bullet myself, or dropped a bomb, I had been a compliant participant in a mindless murder machine. Viet Nam was not an aberration, but consistent with a long history of arrogant interventions revealing something very dark about who we are. Was I part of a savage culture of unthinking sadists, I wondered?

VNWarMontage.png


Clockwise, from top left: U.S. combat operations in Ia Đrăng, ARVN Rangers defending Saigon during the 1968 Tết Offensive, two A-4C Skyhawks after the Gulf of Tonkin incident, ARVN recapture Quảng Trị during the 1972 Easter Offensive, civilians fleeing the 1972 Battle of Quảng Trị, and burial of 300 victims of the 1968 Huế Massacre. (Source: Wikimedia Commons)

Learning Real People’s Versus Fake, Kool Aid US History

I have spent countless hours studying a more comprehensive people’s version of world and US history. Study of US history of course is part of the Eurocentric globalization/colonization over the past 500 years. The 20 percent Eurocentric “developed-world” is a product of self-proclaimed “superiors” violently and deceitfully stealing resources and labor from the other 80 percent, all cloaked in the conceited rhetoric of spreading “civilization.” This patriarchal policy is totally unsustainable from a social, political, ecological, psychological, and moral perspective.

It is instructive to learn that the “Founding Fathers” chose, not democracy, but oligarchy/plutocracy “to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority.” Jefferson’s “empire of liberty” was a vision to expand private property for large landowners. Our Constitution is more a document to preserve freedom of “property” and commercial transactions, than it is to preserve human liberty, of which free speech is the most fundamental. Historian Staughton Lynd summarized it thus: inherited land replaced inherited government. Recently the highest court of the land ruled the legal fiction that property (money) is a person with free speech rights, as preposterous as the earlier legal fiction that a person (slave) is property.

Regarding war, it's not going to end until Armageddon, which is Jesus' second coming. I think the middle part of the book of Revelation is war: God and Jesus anger has been overfilled, and will begin judging the Earth with their wrath. The 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials, all culminating in the battle of Armageddon where Jesus destroys the beast, false prophet, and their followers who survived the seals, trumpets, and vials.

Scriptural support:
-Revelation 16:16 "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."
-Revelation 17:14 "14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."
-Revelation 19:11-14 "11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
-Revelation 19:19-21 "19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."
 

4Jesus

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See my previous post, also pasted below.

For big picture here: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is 100% about Jesus Christ, our Savior, the Son of God. That literally the core foundation of who I am.

Sorry about missing your earlier post, I must've been writing anothe one to see it.

For my information, if you don't mind, what did Joseph Smith present that led to it being a church of Christ to become what is more thought of as a branch of Christianity within Protestantism? Sorry for my confusion in advance ;)
 
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Grailhunter

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I don't believe Agenda 21 is a conspiracy theory however - you can read the plans right on the U.N. documents. They're supposed to be "non-binding" yet we see ICLEI being implemented in most cities across America and the U.N. already owns a number of America's parks. When you really learn about it you can see it being implemented all around you. When you trace all the disparate threads - George H.W. Bush saying on video that there will be a New World Order, JFK warning us about secret societies - and many many other things you can see where 2/3 of Americans are asleep to it happening all around them. I find it amusing when I try to converse with people I meet out - many know the scores of the NFL or the latest song that's out, but ask them about this and you get a blank stare. Even a number of Christians.

Most people are resistant to new ideas that challenged their preconceived notions. How many people vehemently argued that the world was flat? That blacks should be slaves and women shouldn't vote? The true pioneers are those that continue to seek truth in spite of the foolish naysayers - such as Mike Adams and others and they continue to try to alert the masses to what is really happening in America. Complacency can be a bad thing.

Soverign Grace
Do you think I do not consider these things. Bush was / is Skull and Bones. The world is full of those that would like to control. Why things happen are usually different than what the public is going to know. But we know more about things than in years gone by. Putting the puzzle together is fun...my point is do not make it an obsession.
 

Grailhunter

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It is viewed as honoring, not worshiping.
@Grailhunter @brakelite

Regarding conspiracies and evidence, from an atheist perspective, God-the-Father and God-the-Son is a conspiracy, much like a "Bigfoot". One can "look and hear" (or just the fact they have senses) all around them and not see life as proof of God's existence, another can claim that that is proof.

Even with Jesus, I've heard some say that they believe He existed as a man around 0 AD, but they don't believe He is God (the Jews, some atheists); so Jesus Himself is a conspiracy, just a theory to some or not a conspiracy at all.

Looking at it like that would mean that all of history is a conspiracy. Definition of conspiracy theory...a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event(s).
 
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4Jesus

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Looking at it like that would mean that all of history is a conspiracy. Definition of conspiracy theory...a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event(s).

That's the point I was making. Depending on your point of view, any grouping of people could be considered conspirital if they have an opposition from another grouping of people. Even God Himself.
 

Grailhunter

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That's the point I was making. Depending on your point of view, any grouping of people could be considered conspirital if they have an opposition from another grouping of people. Even God Himself.

You need to get into history...because that is it. Everybody has got a plan, and some have a plan to one up on somebody else. I think that started sometime before Jacob and Esau.
 
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4Jesus

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You need to get into history...because that is it. Everybody has got a plan, and some have a plan to one up on somebody else. I think that started sometime before Jacob and Esau.

Hehe, yeah, even back to Cain and Abel (Cain being influenced by satan), to Adam & Eve with satan, and satan and 1/3 of the angels rebeling against God.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Sorry about missing your earlier post, I must've been writing anothe one to see it.
It's all good! The same thing happens to be frequently.
For my information, if you don't mind, what did Joseph Smith present that led to it being a church of Christ to become what is more thought of as a branch of Christianity within Protestantism? Sorry for my confusion in advance ;)
You're totally good- I'm very happy address any questions and set the record straight.

First, I'll address a common myth here: I don't belong to the church of Joseph Smith. I do not worship Joseph Smith. I am not led by Joseph Smith. My beliefs are not decimated by Joseph Smith. No. Just no. I am a disciple of Christ. I do believe that Joseph Smith was a flawed servant of God, but he was still a flawed sinful man (as are all men) and remotely a focus of my discipleship.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints isn't a Protestant Church. Nor is it directly tied to the Protestant Reformation, with the through process of protesting Catholic doctrines and reforming them. Rather, it see itself as a restoration of Christ's Church: a restoring of Truth from On High. So it's not Protestant, nor Catholic, and has some important theological disagreements with both. But the most important thing-- that which defines a Christian -- is accepting and celebrating Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. To that, I shout "AMEN!!" with all of my Protestant Christian and Catholic Christian brethren.
 

Soverign Grace

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Actual LDS Christian (nicknamed "Mormon" here).

Short answer: No.

The FreeMasonary and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are two completely different organizations. Both of which really don't like having the folks mix them up. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is focused on Christ, all folks welcome and teaches those one set of beliefs. FreeMasonary is a fraternity that has people of all theological beliefs.

The avenue axe-grinders will (falsely) sell this mix up is to misconstrue one of the three religious rituals LDS Christian undergo in the temple. This ritual is focused on the Plan of Salvation, talking about the Creation, Atonement, Resurrection, and entrance into Christ's kingdom. It has a long (~2 hour) theology presentation going over this, highly symbolic, and very much personal revelation focused to. The presentation of this has actually change through time. Anyway, the way an axe-grinder will miscontue things is to take a few symbols out of context (including deleting all of the Christ-centric focus), highlight that outward resemblance to FreeMasonary and a historical connection, and try to convince you that they are both worshipping the devil. It doesn't remotely match when you look at the meaning, context, or any part of the whole picture.

As always, if any wants me to talk me about this / any specific aspect, feel free to ask.

I had never read of them being connected.
 

Soverign Grace

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Is SG is showing her affection for you??? SG, Willie is one of the good guys.

Enoch I don't know what you're implying? Willie has not always been nice on here to people, so your experience with him may be very different than mine or others' experiences so you can't make that blanket statement and claim that it's truth. Willie has good in him - I've seen it - we all have a mixture of both. I do not want to get into it with Willie, and as I said earlier, I regretted my earlier careless words. I don't want to hurt anyone on here - this is a Christian forum and we should keep our posts in line with that. I cannot read his posts, only others' responses. I hope at some point that will change. I'm trying to keep peace although I'm not going to remain quiet if I see someone being abused on here, which sometimes happens, and shouldn't. If we're honest, we'd admit that we still have sinful ways in us. Christ tells us that if possible to live at peace with all men, and to the best of our ability we're to do that.

Psalms 133:1
“(A Song of degrees of David.) Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!”

So let's not stir any trouble and just discuss the issues at hand.

So how much have you studied about the Freemasons? Some of the various organizations are so varied that it's hard to pin down who is connected to what. Professor Veith's video is in-depth and I'm going to have to watch it a number of times before I get a picture of all the numerous organizations and how they're connected. Since I'm studying Revelations I'm trying to see where they all fit together at. It's all interesting - especially their connection to the Vatican. Being raised a strict Catholic it's interesting to me.
 

Enoch111

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So how much have you studied about the Freemasons?
Enough to know that Freemasonry has nothing in common with the Gospel of Christ and is occultic to the core. In fact you could call it Satanist.

'To occultists it is Lucifer who brings this enlightenment as is seen in Albert Pike’s statement. “Lucifer, the Light-Bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! (Albert Pike, Morals And Dogma, The Supreme Council of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, 1871, p. 321).'

'David Carrico exposed, “Eliphas Levi became a Freemason on 13 March 1861 and authored many books that have become classics in occult literature. …but the information we are dwelling on here is the Luciferian doctrine that Levi passed on to another Freemason of great repute, Albert Pike. (David Carrico, “Freemasonry and the Twentieth Century Occult Revival,” The Dark Side of Freemasonry, edited by Ed Decker, Huntington House Publishers, 1994, p. 209)'


The Roots of Freemasonry: Satanism and Occultism | Truth Watchers
 
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Willie T

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Enoch I don't know what you're implying? Willie has not always been nice on here to people, so your experience with him may be very different than mine or others' experiences so you can't make that blanket statement and claim that it's truth. Willie has good in him - I've seen it - we all have a mixture of both. I do not want to get into it with Willie, and as I said earlier, I regretted my earlier careless words. I don't want to hurt anyone on here - this is a Christian forum and we should keep our posts in line with that. I cannot read his posts, only others' responses. I hope at some point that will change. I'm trying to keep peace although I'm not going to remain quiet if I see someone being abused on here, which sometimes happens, and shouldn't. If we're honest, we'd admit that we still have sinful ways in us. Christ tells us that if possible to live at peace with all men, and to the best of our ability we're to do that.

Psalms 133:1
“(A Song of degrees of David.) Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!”

So let's not stir any trouble and just discuss the issues at hand.

So how much have you studied about the Freemasons? Some of the various organizations are so varied that it's hard to pin down who is connected to what. Professor Veith's video is in-depth and I'm going to have to watch it a number of times before I get a picture of all the numerous organizations and how they're connected. Since I'm studying Revelations I'm trying to see where they all fit together at. It's all interesting - especially their connection to the Vatican. Being raised a strict Catholic it's interesting to me.
One of the biggest complaints I seem to hear voiced about me is that I have often challenged our "honesty" in our beliefs and statements.
"Yes", I certainly have. And SG just did the same thing. (I bolded that part above.) Where is the difference?
 

4Jesus

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It is viewed as honoring, not worshiping.

I understand they view it as honoring, or veneration, of Mary. I guess I'm asking, when does it become idolization and worshipping?

To me, when there is an abundance of attention given to someone, and idolization via statues and paintings of someone, then completely off the rails with bowing to the statues of, in addition to praying to that same person, isn't that enough to justify that it has become worship of that person?

That above list is pretty blatant; it's not subtle in the least. Especially with the bowing to statues and praying to, how can they not see that as worship? Unless the don't care of course.

Interestingly, Mary's husband Joseph, Jesus' adoptive human dad, has been mostly overlooked for what he did.