Galatians 2:20

[David H.]

Better to stay with Biblical terminology, unless it doesn't say what you want to say. That's what I think anyway.

Rewording narrative passages to show your view, well, I'll just say I don't believe in doing that myself.

Instead of always reverting to this textualist argument, can you instead appreciate what is the unction of the Holy Spirit trying to explain what these distinctions mean? We Serve a Living Christ who speaks to us and teaches us via His Spirit in us, and His Spirit will protect and explain the Word of God as the Spirit of Truth. (John 16:13)

No offence, but the semantic arguments are quite bothersome, and I know this is how you like to grasp things, but they make your comments quite tedious.... just a simple word of advice.

 

[marks]

But "mankind" is more appropriate.

Changing the words . . .

Not appropriate ever.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Instead of always reverting to this textualist argument

and I know this is how you like to grasp things, but they make your comments quite tedious.... just a simple word of advice.

Suddenly I think you don't like the direction this conversation is headed . . .

Seems this always happens. When you turn to discussing me, the conversation is over.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Suddenly I think you don't like the direction this conversation is headed . . .

Seems this always happens. When you turn to discussing me, the conversation is over.

This seems to be how you respond whenever the points made get too challenging for you, and you cannot answer them using your textual mindset.

God bless.

 

[marks]

This seems to be how you respond whenever the points made get too challenging for you, and you cannot answer them using your textual mindset.

God bless.

I'm talking about when you shift from discussing the material to discussing me. That's what has happened again.

While you may find it easier to denigrate me, I'm only interested in Scriptural discussion with you.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Changing the words . . .

Not appropriate ever.

Much love!

"I" and "we" mean either non-saved or saved. That encompasses everyone. And mankind is everyone.

 

[marks]

"I" and "we" mean either non-saved or saved. That encompasses everyone. And mankind is everyone.

You change the wording, and that changes the meaning, but what if you allow the passage to speak exactly what it says?

No need to keep circling on this point.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You change the wording, and that changes the meaning, but what if you allow the passage to speak exactly what it says?

No need to keep circling on this point.

Much love!

In 1 John if you apply "we" to only the saved, believing that John is including himself, as Romans 7 is believing Paul is speaking of his current condition, then you rob yourself of the true meaning.

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So is verses 6 and 7 both talking about the saved? What about verses 8 and 10?

 

[marks]

Romans 7:17-25 KJV
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Of whom does the apostle speak? Is it himself?

Does the fact that John wrote with inclusive language (we) in his letter, does this change how we should read Paul's letter (I, me, myself)? Or should we allow Paul to speak for himself?

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Romans 7:17-25 KJV
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Of whom does the apostle speak? Is it himself?

Much love!

Remember that these verse are talking about someone under the law of sin and death. Now read Romans 8:2

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Which one is Paul's current condition?

 

[marks]

Remember that these verse are talking about someone under the law of sin and death. Now read Romans 8:2

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 7:25 KJV
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The flesh remains in sin. So we are to deny the flesh.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Romans 7:25 KJV
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The flesh remains in sin. So we are to deny the flesh.

Much love!

Verse 25 is just the conclusion of verses 14-25 of someone under the law of sin and death which goes back to the beginning of verses 5-13. Chapter 8 now shows what Paul was thanking Jesus for.

The Law is know by the mind of what to do, but it is in opposition to the sinful flesh.

Romans 7:25 So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

"So then" is "in conclusion..."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The flesh remains in sin. So we are to deny the flesh.

We can't. It is too strong. It needs to be crucified (killed) completely. Romans 6:6-7. Romans 8:1-9

Only when we are born again of the Spirit of God can we not sin. 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18

And practice was inserted. It is not there.

 

[marks]

We can't. It is too strong. It needs to be crucified (killed) completely. Romans 6:6-7. Romans 8:1-9

Romans 6:3-7 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.''

I have good news for you!

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Romans 6:3-7 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.''

I have good news for you!

Much love!

I've known the good news for 45 years. I know that Roman 7:14-23 is not me - but certainly was a long time ago.

My question is do you understand it. Please reply to #148, you must have missed it.

Do you now know Roman 7:17 is the reason why the Ten Commandments didn't make anyone righteous, and most importantly it is the reason why Jesus needed to die for us? What did He accomplish???

 

[David H.]

I'm talking about when you shift from discussing the material to discussing me. That's what has happened again.

While you may find it easier to denigrate me, I'm only interested in Scriptural discussion with you.

I Gave you scriptures, and you failed to respond to them and instead reverted to semantic arguments over those scriptures.... this is what frustrates me when discussing these topics with you. What could be a fruitful conversation turns into a textual minutia debate.

My Point that you have failed to respond to is the fact that the Holy Spirit moved on the Apostles twice, once in John 20:22 when they were born again, which is what I call the "earnest" and once in Acts 2 when he came in fulness upon them. Much of the church does not even understand that these two things occur because they are stuck being complacent and satisfied with the first move alone. "Saying they are rich and in need of nothing..."

 

[marks]

My Point that you have failed to respond to is the fact that the Holy Spirit moved on the Apostles twice,

We've discussed that before, I don't mind revisiting, only all your personal nonsense doesn't belong.

I Gave you scriptures, and you failed to respond to them and instead reverted to semantic arguments over those scriptures.... this is what frustrates me when discussing these topics with you. What could be a fruitful conversation turns into a textual minutia debate.

My Point that you have failed to respond to is the fact that the Holy Spirit moved on the Apostles twice, once in John 20:22 when they were born again, which is what I call the "earnest" and once in Acts 2 when he came in fulness upon them. Much of the church does not even understand that these two things occur because they are stuck being complacent and satisfied with the first move alone. "Saying they are rich and in need of nothing..."

John 20:19-23 KJV
19) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21) Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

As you've described this as "the Holy Spirit moved on them", the Biblical presentation is that Jesus breathed on them, and said to them Receive ye the Holy Spirit.

Is your view that this is how each of us receive the Holy Spirit, that Jesus breathes on us? That's how the first man Adam was brought to life also, Jesus breathed into him. Are you of the mind that this is how all people receive life from God, that when they take their first breath, they become a living being?

This is a narrative passage that tells us what happened at that time. It's not a didactic passage saying this is the process that is always followed.

Jesus also told His disciples that whose soever sins they sent away, they are sent away, and whose soever sins they retained, they are retained.

Do you apply this also to yourself?

The thing is, when you post doctrine that is contradicted in the Words of Scripture, and I point to those Words of Scripture, rather than dismiss that as "minutia", and then just start talking about me, maybe a better course is to actually remain engaged with the topic.

In Acts 2, where you describe the Holy Spirit came in fulness upon them, do you include all the disciples? Or just the 12? And if so, then when was their "first portion" of the Spirit given? And if not, then why does the Bible describe the same experience for them all?

Jesus breathed on Adam, and gave Him life, and after Adam, they were born with life. Jesus breathed on the disciples, and gave them spiritual life, and after that, all are reborn with spiritual life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In 1 John if you apply "we" to only the saved, believing that John is including himself, as Romans 7 is believing Paul is speaking of his current condition, then you rob yourself of the true meaning.

Different passages. Different writers. Diversion.

Romans 7:17-25 KJV
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Of whom does the apostle speak? Is it himself? I say, of course it was, that's what he wrote.

But you say it was someone else, that when he wrote "I", that's not what he meant.

We're going in circles. How many times do you want to circle this? I say, believe it as it's written, and you say to not, that it actually means something different. OK, got it, I don't agree.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In 1 John if you apply "we" to only the saved, believing that John is including himself, as Romans 7 is believing Paul is speaking of his current condition, then you rob yourself of the true meaning.

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So is verses 6 and 7 both talking about the saved? What about verses 8 and 10?

"We" is a different word from "I", each having their own meanings. "I" refers to myself alone, "We" is an inclusive group which includes not only myself but also others.

John writes of an inclusive "we", while Paul speaks of "I" and "me". No, I do not accept your recommendation to read Paul as if he were writings like John wrote, because in point of fact, Paul did not write as John wrote. They are different passages, different writers, different topics, no, that one used "we" is not good reason to ignore the fact that the said "I".

Much love!

 

[David H.]

John 20:19-23 KJV
19) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21) Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

As you've described this as "the Holy Spirit moved on them", the Biblical presentation is that Jesus breathed on them, and said to them Receive ye the Holy Spirit.

1:Is your view that this is how each of us receive the Holy Spirit, that Jesus breathes on us? That's how the first man Adam was brought to life also, Jesus breathed into him. Are you of the mind that this is how all people receive life from God, that when they take their first breath, they become a living being?

2: This is a narrative passage that tells us what happened at that time. It's not a didactic passage saying this is the process that is always followed.

3: Jesus also told His disciples that whose soever sins they sent away, they are sent away, and whose soever sins they retained, they are retained.

4: Do you apply this also to yourself?

5: The thing is, when you post doctrine that is contradicted in the Words of Scripture, and I point to those Words of Scripture, rather than dismiss that as "minutia", and then just start talking about me, maybe a better course is to actually remain engaged with the topic.

6: In Acts 2, where you describe the Holy Spirit came in fulness upon them, do you include all the disciples? Or just the 12? And if so, then when was their "first portion" of the Spirit given? And if not, then why does the Bible describe the same experience for them all?

7: Jesus breathed on Adam, and gave Him life, and after Adam, they were born with life. Jesus breathed on the disciples, and gave them spiritual life, and after that, all are reborn with spiritual life.

I Numbered your paragraphs/ Questions above so that I can respond individually to the points made....

1: That is what being born of the Spirit means... Aka Born again, so yes, that is what I mean, That all who receive the Gospel are "breathed into Spiritual life". Does Jesus Physically appear to them and literally "breath" into them? NO.

2: So are we to ignore the exodus story and the ten commandments because they are contained in a narrative passage? This on your part borders on the "pick and choose feel good gospel" where if you are not comfortable with a passage you can just excuse it... I do not think you want to or need to take this to its full conclusion.

The Apostles were the first to be "Born again" So for us this is most definitely a pattern for how being born again works in every believer. There is a first move of the Holy Spirit, when Spiritual life is breathed into us, and second move of the Holy Spirit when he comes in power and fulness. We saw this at Pentecost.... And we see this continually in the New Testament, for example, when the Seven Deacons were picked they were said to be men "full of the Holy Ghost". So what does this mean to you? To me it says some were full of the Holy Ghost and some were "less than full" otherwise they could have drawn lots for who they should choose.

We also see this with the Holy Ghost coming upon the Samaritans (Acts 6), When The Holy Ghost first comes upon the Gentiles (Acts 10) etc. The anointing occurs with the New Birth, fulness comes later. This concept is known as the Fulness of God/ Christ in the writings of Paul primarily dealt with in the Epistle to the Ephesians which I referenced earlier (Ephesians 4:13, for example)

3-4: Yes. I apply this to myself and so should all Christians, We are all part of the royal priesthood. this is the error the Catholic church makes which creates a "Nicolaitan" priestly class to rule over the laity that we have to "confess" to. Not sure what your point is, but Yes, John 20:23 applies to all believers who receive the Holy Ghost, It is our royal priestly duty forgive or not to forgive, read the account of Simon the Magician in Acts 6.

5: The minutia is a distraction from engaging in the topic, accusing me of "Making up terms" such as the "first move of the Holy Spirit" And "Fulness of the Spirit" because you cannot find these phrases in a concordance search of the NT. I even gave you the scriptures from where these concepts arrive, the Words the NT uses is the earnest of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:22) and the anointing (1 John 2:27), as opposed to those who are said to be "full of the Holy Ghost and having the fulness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13, Acts 6:3) anointing is the start of us being of the royal priesthood, all of us who are born again. It only as elders that the fulness comes upon us. The early church/ Apostles did have this process accelerated, but the pattern is the same for all who are born again.

6: I cannot confirm nor deny this, but my view is that all who Jesus appeared to between the resurrection and the ascension received the Holy Ghost as an anointing, there were 120 in the upper room when The Holy Ghost fell on them with power. I Believe they received the Holy Ghost in fulness that Pentecost. Paul says the number of the people Jesus appeared to before the ascension somewhere, but I cannot remember the verse...... (1 Corinthians 15:4-8)

7: This is the classic cessationist argument, which carried to its full ends leads to a powerless Christianity. What you are saying is that because physical life was breathed into only Adam, and then transferred through his progeny this first act of breathing Spiritual life onto the Apostles is then passed on to the Spiritual children of the Apostles. (Correct me if I am wrong on how you are meaning this?) What this implies is that all newborn believers receive the fulness of the Spirit immediately upon becoming Born again, which experience tells me this is not the case, or conversely that we never receive the fulness of the Spirit which leads to powerless Christianity. I Am guessing you are saying the former, so to you I will ask again, what does it mean to be "full of the Holy Ghost" and why were some chosen for this quality in Acts 6:3 ff.?