I agree with your premise RH. In hindsight, we can say then, that the Apostles were indeed the elect of God and in foresight we also have this hope which all creation waits upon....Romans 8:19, 20-25
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From our viewpoint, yes ... but not from God's!StanJ said:Plus, one is only part of the elect AFTER they are actually saved, never before.
Yes He does, because He knows ALL. The issue is that foreknowledge precedes predestination, which is ONLY for the elect AFTER they are saved.Zachary said:From our viewpoint, yes ... but not from God's!
He knows WHO His elect are from BEFORE the foundation of the world, right?
1 Peter 2 is describing Jesus as the, 'stumbling block', and the language connotes that it is the religious that stumble. I don't know what the reason you're quoting above but it seems to be something that you yourself have paraphrased.justaname said:6 For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"
8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. - 1 Peter 2:6-8
Peter is saying some are destined to disobey and stumble. Stumbling is disobeying.
I would not think they are predetermined by God rather through rebellion, as all from Adam are in rebellion.
Let's read on some...
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. - 1 Peter 2:9-10
Notice the emphasis is on God's choice, God's calling, and God's mercy. This is the contrast to those destined to stumble. Remember grace is favor.
So then back to the OP the good works we do are a means of honoring God not meriting salvation.
11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.
12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation. - 1 Peter 2:11-12
Christianity is different from all religion in that the focus is on God in Christ for salvation. Religion would have man's actions the measure for salvation. Christ paid the full penalty for sin on the cross. We can not add to it. It took an eternal being to pay an eternal debt in a condensed amount of time. We are merely the beneficiaries of God's favor (grace) in that we believe.
Wrong at what. Those who don't believe are calling God a liar. I believe Stan. Do you believe?StanJ said:You would rather called God a liar than admit that you have been wrong.
All you're doing here is dodging what I said to you in post #281. The issue is not me believing, the issue is what YOU believe. You believe OSAS, but you can't support it from scripture despite all your copying and pasting of irrelevant verses. You really need to learn to stay on topic and stop zipping down all these rabbit trails ATP. You keep on stating the obvious but you make no point.ATP said:Wrong at what. Those who don't believe are calling God a liar. I believe Stan. Do you believe?
1 John 5:10 NIV Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
The issue is in what we are believing in that gives us eternal life, Stan. "Whoever does not believe what?" What are they referring too?StanJ said:All you're doing here is dodging what I said to you in post #281. The issue is not me believing, the issue is what YOU believe. You believe OSAS, but you can't support it from scripture despite all your copying and pasting of irrelevant verses. You really need to learn to stay on topic and stop zipping down all these rabbit trails ATP. You keep on stating the obvious but you make no point.
Yes, that too and what you are believing is OSAS, which is not supported in scripture and you still fail to show it, so I fail to understand how you see something that isn't there. Well that's not true I do see it, it's called inculcation. The sad thing is you believe something you can't even support or prove.ATP said:The issue is in what we are believing in that gives us eternal life, Stan. "Whoever does not believe what?" What are they referring too?
1 John 5:10 NIV Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
Yes, of course, butski we need to understand ...justaname said:We are merely the beneficiaries of God's favor (grace) in that we believe.
And, believe me when I promise:StanJ said:James 1:12
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test,
that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
We've already received the crown of life when we believed. Notice the word "promised" in James 1:12 and Eph 1:13. Is unbelief keeping you..StanJ said:Yes, that too and what you are believing is OSAS, which is not supported in scripture and you still fail to show it, so I fail to understand how you see something that isn't there. Well that's not true I do see it, it's called inculcation. The sad thing is you believe something you can't even support or prove.
James 1:12
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
The word "faith"...mjrhealth said:I guess he missed this bit..
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Men always denying the power of God unto salvation. Do people think that God would start something He couldnt finish.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Im sure God saw that man would rebell at every turn, He is not as shortsighted as men seem to make Him out to be.
I can just see the devil,
ha ha ha ha , God cant even save christians, for they dont believe He can.
Where is your faith??
I'm not sure why you keep addressing my posts as if I'm disagreeing with your POV? You seem to have a comprehension problem in this regard? You don't have to prove anything to me. I know exactly what the Crown of Life is and James tells us we will receive it when Jesus returns.Zachary said:And, believe me when I promise:
I can prove from the NT that "the crown of life" refers to eternal life
BTW, the key in the above verse is that
those who love the Lord will OBEY Him.
Again, care to see the Scriptural proof?
All I do with today's Laodicean church is to quote
Scriptural warnings which they refuse to believe!
However, the true elect of God heed them
... and that's why they are the elect.
There you go again. You refuse to see what James says here and that you will receive, not have received. According to the way you read the Bible, half of it is right and half of it is wrong. You either have to believe that it's all right or it's all wrong and I personally believe it's all right, so therefore what you think is contradictory is not contradictory, you just don't understand it properly. Ignoring scripture that shows you your belief in OSAS is wrong, IS just pushing you deeper and deeper into your false teaching and inculcation. If you're not careful you'll end up being one of the people Luke describes in Hebrews 6:4-6ATP said:We've already received the crown of life when we believed. Notice the word "promised" in James 1:12 and Eph 1:13. Is unbelief keeping you..
Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
I'm seeing the saint persevere because the promised Holy Spirit never leaves them. What do you think.StanJ said:There you go again. You refuse to see what James says here and that you will receive, not have received. According to the way you read the Bible, half of it is right and half of it is wrong. You either have to believe that it's all right or it's all wrong and I personally believe it's all right, so therefore what you think is contradictory is not contradictory, you just don't understand it properly. Ignoring scripture that shows you your belief in OSAS is wrong, IS just pushing you deeper and deeper into your false teaching and inculcation. If you're not careful you'll end up being one of the people Luke describes in Hebrews 6:4-6
I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you have never had the baptism of the Holy Spirit have you?
Feigning obtuseness is what got you into trouble ATP. It clearly says WILL RECEIVE. If you refuse to acknowledge that, then the culpability is yours alone.ATP said:I'm seeing the saint persevere because the promised Holy Spirit never leaves them. What do you think.
I don't doubt God's faithfulness towards me so, doubting His gets you in trouble no. try to save yourself. good people in hell.StanJ said:Feigning obtuseness is what got you into trouble ATP. It clearly says WILL RECEIVE. If you refuse to acknowledge that, then the culpability is yours alone.