God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

[Zachary]

Saving faith results in obedience!

Matthew 19:
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him,
“Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
Mark 10:
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him,
“Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’
‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
Luke 18:
18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying,
“Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’
‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
There are many more NT verses which say obedience is required to obtain eternal life.

Saving faith results in works!

The Parable of the Talents -- Matthew 25:14-30
5 talents produced 5 more -- “good and faithful servant”
2 talents produced 2 more -- “good and faithful servant”
1 talent produced 0 more -- “wicked and lazy servant”, “unprofitable servant” …
“cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Somehow, this just doesn’t sound like heaven to me!
“Christ gives different gifts to different people according to their ability … But whatever gifts He gives,
He wants us to use them … Christ does not expect everyone to return the same amount to Him (Mk 4:20).
But He does expect that we return to Him all that we can. Especially, He expects from us our love,
our faith, our obedience … The wicked and lazy servant in the end did not preserve his talent; he lost it.
If we do not use our spiritual and material blessings in God’s service, they will be taken away from us.
If we grieve the Holy Spirit, He will depart from us … The punishment for a servant who misuses a gift
of God is very severe. When we do not use God’s gift in His service, we cheat God, we oppose God.
Therefore, He will oppose us.”
(Dr. Thomas Holt (a Spirit-filled missionary), The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996)

The Parable of the Minas -- Luke 19:12-27
10 minas produced 10 more -- “good servant”
10 minas produced 5 more -- “good servant”
1 mina produced 0 more -- “wicked servant” …
“bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them,
and slay them before me.”
Somehow, this just doesn’t sound like heaven to me!
“The parable of the ten minas (Lk 19:12-27) is very similar to this parable of the talents … the meaning of
(the 2 parables) is the same … we all must use the gifts of God as diligently as we can, and that God will
reward each of us according to our work and faithfulness … Then at the end of the parable, the king had
those enemies put to death (Lk 19:27) … Let us not be among those who oppose the true King, Christ,
the King of Kings. If we reject His gifts, if we refuse to serve Him, we shall bring upon ourselves
eternal condemnation.”
(Dr. Thomas Holt (a Spirit-filled missionary), The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996)

Believers today who have been following false teachers …
are like the Hebrews of Jesus’ time who were following the Pharisees!
IMO, it is a case of not only the blind following the blind, but also
often the deliberate and selfish choice to place themselves over their sheep.

 

[FHII]

1. Why didn't you finish telling the story about the young rich man? That is, the part where he claimed to have kept the law from his youth, and Jesus said fine, give all you have and follow me. Keeping the law didn't help him. Yet what hurt him was not giving up his life and following Jesus.

2. You mentioned today's folk are like the hebrews following the pharasees. Interesting analogy. See, Jesus said your righteousness must exceed that of the pharasees. Well, the Pharisees were the ones most zealous for the law! They lacked compassion and they did not follow Jesus. They had "works".

3. Despite what may be thought, I am not against works or following the law. The problem is when you think its getting you closer to God somehow. "Good works" might. But there are too many verses that say we aren't under or saved by the law and that faith and works don't mix.

 

[FHII]

I want to discuss another point. I have heard too many times that without the law, we all will do terrible things. Well, they did terrible things with it! But rest assured that there is plenty to keep a Christian busy without the law of death.

Jesus said come and learn of me.

Seek ye first the kingdom God and his righteousness.

Paul said all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient, don't be brought under the power of any.

Keep your conversation honest amongst the gentiles.

Whatever you do, do it in honor of God.

Peter said don't use your liberty as a cloak of malice.

So there are plenty of things that come down to "morality".

 

[ATP]

Believers today who have been following false teachers …
are like the Hebrews of Jesus’ time who were following the Pharisees!
IMO, it is a case of not only the blind following the blind, but also
often the deliberate and selfish choice to place themselves over their sheep.

Rev 12:10 NIV Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

 

[ATP]

non-osas is the accuser.

Rev 12:10 NIV Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

 

[FHII]

non-osas is the accuser.

Rev 12:10 NIV Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

LOL! I have been thinking about the same verse lately as it pertains to some posts on this board! That and Matthew 5 when jesus said, "blessed are ye when nen revile you and persecute you and say all manber of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad. For so they persecuted the prophets before thee!"

 

[ATP]

LOL! I have been thinking about the same verse lately as it pertains to some posts on this board! That and Matthew 5 when jesus said, "blessed are ye when nen revile you and persecute you and say all manber of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad. For so they persecuted the prophets before thee!"

Notice also how the accuser mixes truth with lies. Watch closely...

Believers today who have been following false teachers …
are like the Hebrews of Jesus’ time who were following the Pharisees!
IMO, it is a case of not only the blind following the blind, but also
often the deliberate and selfish choice to place themselves over their sheep.

False

1. Believers today who have been following false teachers
2. are like the Hebrews of Jesus’ time who were following the Pharisees!
3. IMO, it is a case of not only the blind following the blind,
but also often the deliberate and selfish choice to place themselves over their sheep.


Truth
1. Non-osas are actually those who are following false doctrine, depending on the law to save them.
2. Non-osas are like the Pharisees. The Pharisees depended on the law and the majority were never saved.
3. Following Christ is actually the opposite of deliberate and selfish John 10:25-30 NIV. Persecution humbles you James 1:2-18 NIV

- ATP

 

[heretoeternity]

Jesus said in Matthew "you honour me with your lips but your hearts are far from me..I will say to you depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness"..and Rev 22 "behold I come quickly and my reward is with me for every man according to his works"...

 

[Zachary]

The ATP ...
"Non-osas are actually those who are following false doctrine, depending on the law to save them."

I must be out of my mind by responding to the ATP, but we all have our weak moments ...

He always insists on ignoring the multitude of warnings in the NT about losing salvation.
IMO, God's elect respond to these reminder warnings, and this ensures their salvation.
Yes, God knew who these ones are before the foundation of the world.
All others (who don't heed the warnings and don't live righteously) are lost.

But of course, we do have the last-second repenters, such as ones on their death-beds,
who just don't have enough time to fall out of their righteous standing before the Father.

 

[ATP]

Jesus said in Matthew "you honour me with your lips but your hearts are far from me..I will say to you depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness"..and Rev 22 "behold I come quickly and my reward is with me for every man according to his works"...

The ATP ...
"Non-osas are actually those who are following false doctrine, depending on the law to save them."

I must be out of my mind by responding to the ATP, but we all have our weak moments ...

He always insists on ignoring the multitude of warnings in the NT about losing salvation.
IMO, God's elect respond to these reminder warnings, and this ensures their salvation.
Yes, God knew who these ones are before the foundation of the world.
All others (who don't heed the warnings and don't live righteously) are lost.

But of course, we do have the last-second repenters, such as ones on their death-beds,
who just don't have enough time to fall out of their righteous standing before the Father.

Are you guys pretend believers? Do you have the profession of faith but not the possession of faith? :unsure:

The biblical warnings against apostasy, therefore, are warnings to those who are under the umbrella of “faith” without ever having truly exercised faith. Scriptures such as Hebrews 6:4–6 and Hebrews 10:26–29 are warnings to “pretend” believers that they need to examine themselves before it’s too late. Matthew 7:22–23 indicates that “pretend believers” whom the Lord rejects on Judgment Day are rejected not because they “lost faith” but because the Lord never knew them. They never had a relationship with Him.

There are many people who love religion for religion’s sake and are willing to identify themselves with Jesus and the church. Who wouldn’t want eternal life and blessing? However, Jesus warns us to “count the cost” of discipleship (Luke 9:23–26; 14:25–33). True believers have counted the cost and made the commitment; apostates fail to do so. Apostates had a profession of faith at one time but not the possession of faith. Their mouths spoke something other than what their hearts believed. Apostasy is not loss of salvation but evidence of past pretension.

http://www.gotquesti...-salvation.html

 

[StanJ]

The ATP ...
"Non-osas are actually those who are following false doctrine, depending on the law to save them."

I must be out of my mind by responding to the ATP, but we all have our weak moments ...

He always insists on ignoring the multitude of warnings in the NT about losing salvation.
IMO, God's elect respond to these reminder warnings, and this ensures their salvation.
Yes, God knew who these ones are before the foundation of the world.
All others (who don't heed the warnings and don't live righteously) are lost.

But of course, we do have the last-second repenters, such as ones on their death-beds,
who just don't have enough time to fall out of their righteous standing before the Father.

ATP is on my ignore list so I'm not really concerned about what he says, but I will comment on your frustration.

In my opinion the Bible does not really teach that we lose salvation, however it does teach that we can fall away into apostasy. In my view that is effectively the same thing, and so when we read verses like Hebrews 6:46 and Heb 10:38-39, any non inculcated person will see that there is a warning there for something that is a real threat to our walk in Christ. We can either heed that warning and pay attention to the signs or we can ignore it and suffer the consequences. As always the choice is ours and if we sow indifference into our lives, we will reap apathy and thus apostasy. Technically, apostasy is not the same as losing salvation, but to quote William Shakespeare, "a rose by any other name...".

 

[Zachary]

Stanley, a good post ... thank you!

 

[iakov]

Saving faith results in obedience!


There are many more NT verses which say obedience is required to obtain eternal life.

Saving faith results in works!

“Christ gives different gifts to different people according to their ability … But whatever gifts He gives,
He wants us to use them …

Saving faith does not AUTOMATICALLY result in obedience and works.
It results in the desire to be obedient and to do good works.
We must choose to act on that desire.

iakov the fool



[SIZE=9pt]You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day. [/SIZE]

 

[StanJ]

The term Saving Faith is not really found in the Bible, so I can only conclude that it is a type of doctrinal vernacular that is used by those who support RT.
Faith is pretty clear and salvation by faith as well. Rom 10:9-11

 

[ATP]

Saving faith does not AUTOMATICALLY result in obedience and works.
It results in the desire to be obedient and to do good works.
We must choose to act on that desire.

We do good works by believing.

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Rom 3:19-22 NIV Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Rom 4:11 NIV And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Rom 4:22-24 NIV This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Rom 10:3-4 NIV Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Gal 3:5-7 NIV Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

1 Tim 4:10 NIV That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

James 2:23 NIV And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

 

[heretoeternity]

James 2 satan and his deomons are believers, and tremble with fear....ATP you must consider them to be "saved" also then?

 

[justaname]

James 2 satan and his deomons are believers, and tremble with fear....ATP you must consider them to be "saved" also then?

Demons can not be saved. James would never teach that. Your statement, "Satan and his demons are believers" is false. Satan questioned if Jesus is the Son of God during the temptation. James says demons believe God is One. I am certain ATP knows faith without works is dead.

Here is my question to you. What is the work of God?

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. - James 2:10

 

[Zachary]

Here is my question to you. What is the work of God?

We could start here ...

Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name,
cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

But, we all need to figure out what God's will is for us.
Might it be to obey Jesus' teachings and commands?
Might it be to put on Jesus' character of obedience, righteousness, holiness?

One Spirit-filled evangelist of years gone by said:
Jesus "knowing" means "approving of".

It might just be obvious that Jesus approves of ...
those who put on His character of obedience, righteousness, holiness.

 

[StanJ]

One Spirit-filled evangelist of years gone by said:
Jesus "knowing" means "approving of".
It might just be obvious that Jesus approves of ...
those who put on His character of obedience, righteousness, holiness.

You've hit upon it right here, we are to agree, in essence approve of what God wants to do. The Bible says if we confess our sIns, which means if we agree with God that what we do is sin, then he is faithful and just to forgive us those sins. Noticed it does not instruct us to ask for forgiveness from God but to acknowledge to God that what we have done is sin. The Bible also states that Jesus died for sin once for all. That means that our sin has already been provided for in the sense of atonement. Jesus Paid the price once and he did it for all sin for all time. Once we acknowledge that and receive him as our savior it becomes effective in our lives.

 

[heretoeternity]

Demons can not be saved. James would never teach that. Your statement, "Satan and his demons are believers" is false. Satan questioned if Jesus is the Son of God during the temptation. James says demons believe God is One. I am certain ATP knows faith without works is dead.

Here is my question to you. What is the work of God?

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. - James 2:10

Here is a question for you? What part of James 2 don't you understand...the part about satan and the demons, or "faith without works is dead" they are tied together..if you say your have faith, and believe, but do not walk the walk you are like satan and the demons.....easy enough to understand right?