God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

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StanJ

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ATP said:
How is that possible though. Rom 8:38-39 says neither death nor life can separate the elect from God, and the lake of fire is the second death. Do you understand now? Your parable theory is contradictory to the entire Gospel message.
It's possible because God said so. Are you saying that Romans 8 contradicts the rest of the word of God? You have this bad habit of trying to play one part of scripture off on another, by prevaricating about what it says. Romans 8 does not say what you assert here.

ATP said:
If OSAS can be proven false by using parables then God is a liar and in contradiction with the rest of the Gospel. Whoever does not believe has made Him out to be a liar...
It already has been, but you would rather accept your fallacious dogma than accept the word of God in truth. You would rather called God a liar than admit that you have been wrong. Not surprising because the Pharisees did the exact same thing. That is always the end result of false teaching.
I told you before not to waste my time quoting a bunch of scripture with no point. I'm sure you do it by design, to deflect the point that's being made, but it only shows that you really don't know what you're using scripture for, or how to use it
 

heretoeternity

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Whatever! You people remind me of a school playground...

Come on Folks..this is a CHRISTIAN website....it is supposed to be based on Jesus Christ Our Saviour, and not a bunch of fancy words...like of wow "fallacious" or whatever..who cares? Get to the bottom line folks...we are in Planet earth, it is controlled by satan, we want to get out of it either dead or alive...OK...the Bible teaches us how to do this...LOVE GOD and LOVE thy neighbour.....and soften your hearts.....humble yourselves,,...be like little children..there is not experts in this..just the Bible and JESUS words...and humility.....never mind picking the flyspecks out of the pepper just read the Gospels, the words of Jesus and follow them....every thing else is useless "nitpicking"....
 

mjrhealth

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the words of Jesus and follow them...
be far better off following Christ.

Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
 

Zachary

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justaname said:
I say there was never a point of salvation if they do not grow or if they bear the fruit of apostasy.
Yes, if one believes that one's final and ultimate salvation is a life-long process,
which I believe the NT Scriptures do teach.
 

Zachary

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ATP said:
Rom 8:38-39 says neither death nor life can separate the elect from God ...
Of course, everything hinges on exactly WHO "the elect" are!
And God has always known exactly WHO His elect are,
but you certainly have NO idea who they are!
 

Zachary

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All of the following is talking about eternal life vs. eternal death.
3 times in these 8 verses, Paul warns that sin results in eternal death.
Must he tell these believers that unbelievers who sin are going to hell?
No, of course not ... they already know that, don't they!
Obviously, Paul is warning these believers about the end result of their sinning!
And, IMO, he is talking about habitual unrepentant sinning,

Romans 6:
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death,
or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin,
yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.
For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness,
and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness,
so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed?
For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God,
you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We need to understand Paul's writing style (but who does?).
E.G. He is joking when he says they are slaves of God.
They are called to be such, but at the moment they are into habitual sinning.

And Paul is back, basically repeating the same warning ...

Romans 8:
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 

StanJ

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Zachary said:
Of course, everything hinges on exactly WHO "the elect" are!
And God has always known exactly WHO His elect are,
but you certainly have NO idea who they are!

Plus, one is only part of the elect AFTER they are actually saved, never before.
 

mjrhealth

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Plus, one is only part of the elect AFTER they are actually saved, never before.
Not so, His Elect where chosen before the begining of time, God knows who are His before they do, His elect are still His elect even while they walk on this earth, and they know who there father is.
 

FHII

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Zachary said:
Of course, everything hinges on exactly WHO "the elect" are!
And God has always known exactly WHO His elect are,
but you certainly have NO idea who they are!
That is 100% correct! And it reaffirms that predestination is truth. The problem is, because no one knows with the same certainty that the Lord has, makes ita doctrine we can do very little with.

It is true, nonetheless.
 

StanJ

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FHII said:
That is 100% correct! And it reaffirms that predestination is truth. The problem is, because no one knows with the same certainty that the Lord has, makes ita doctrine we can do very little with.
It is true, nonetheless.
How exactly does this reaffirm 'predestination is truth'? What predestination are you referring to?
As I just posted, the elect are only the elect when they become the elect, they're not predestined to be so.
 

FHII

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mjrhealth said:
Not so, His Elect where chosen before the begining of time, God knows who are His before they do, His elect are still His elect even while they walk on this earth, and they know who there father is.
Again, i agree. Psalms 139 confirms it.
 

mjrhealth

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Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
 

FHII

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mjrhealth said:
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
And there are many other verses that talk about this. The thing is thay God knows and has declared it. Doesn't mean we ourselves know. We only know its been declared.

Now if you are saying, "well... I KNOW MYYYY standing!" great! Well, that's the right attitude to have!

But you don't. Lot of other pretend brethren have had equal testimonies. What makes you special?

Me? Yea... I know I'm saved too. But i also know the Lord alone knows the total end from the beginning, and he did give me criteria to go by.

So every day i am going to contend for thr faith, run the race, and ask for my daily bread.

Not sit on the truth about tbe promise of predestination. God's children are predestined to do his will.
 

mjrhealth

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But you don't. Lot of other pretend brethren have had equal testimonies. What makes you special?
No ones special in Gods eyes, we are all given the same spirit the same promises, whether we choose to believe them or not is our doing. But truth is, I do know why i am here and I know of others who also know what there purpose is, as to what God does with man is His will, we just need to believe Him and He will do it. God has much to offer man, some beleiev God has nothing more to say, and so miss out on teh better things, some dont believe they cant talk to God yet teh torn veil in the temple says other wise as does,

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Once christians get there heads out of the bible and start having a relationship with Christ, teh world will take notice, till than its just like any other religion.
 

Wormwood

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There is an elect group, according to the foreknowledge of the Father. Elect individuals are not predetermined. They are foreknown. If they were predetermined, then foreknowledge would be meaningless. Election is based on our enduring in the faith. God knows who will endure and thus he knows who the elect are. That does not mean he has predetermined who the elect will be or has nullified their free will choices. Rather, their election is based upon his foreknowledge of their free will choices.
 

H. Richard

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There are many that interpret scriptures about the "predestinated / elected" to mean that God choose those "individuals" that will be saved and those "individuals" that will not be saved. But I do not see this in the scriptures they are looking at. I see that God has elected that those (a group) that except His Son will be saved and those (a group) that refuse Him will not. To me, if a man has no choice then why is preaching of the gospel required? Why did Jesus say "in Revelations "whosoever will let him come?" Does this statement mean what it says "whosoever will let him come" or it is a lie? I believe it to be the absolute truth.

Perhaps this is not a good analogy but let us say that I plan and built a stadium that has two gates, one that is closest to the north side of the field and one that is south of the field. It is "predestinated / elected" that those who enter the north gate will sit on the north side of the field and those entering the south gate will sit on the south side of the field. It is the people that make a choice as to which side to enter. Like I said this analogy leaves a lot to be desired but it should get the point across that I am trying to make. Is this too simplistic for some? Then perhaps Paul was in error when he said:

1 Cor 1:26-29 . . (NKJ)
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
To further try and explain let us take this example. A man has two sons. He tells the two sons that whoever cuts the grass will be paid xxx dollars. The father has predestinated/elected that whoever cuts the grass will receive xxx dollars but he has not chosen which son (individual) to cut the grass. In this same way God has predestined/elected that all who receive His Son will be saved.
Everyone is free to believe what they wish. I have stated what I believe.

Rom 8:26-30 NKJV
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these (a group) He also called; whom He called, these (a group) He also justified; and whom He justified, these (a group) He also glorified.