God as heavenly parent - the dysfunctional view we inherited
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Uh... are you claiming that salvation is a result of "putting to death the deeds of the body"?
Heaven is going to be a very lonely place.
We'll miss you, I promise. - LOL
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The scripture is the word of God through all time, including today the NT scriptures. It does not matter what scripture was as scripture always is the word of God recorded, written down.
Theme in Romans 8 is all about salvation. You should not take it out of context like that, but I also wont post the entire chapter that anyone else can read if they wanted. v9 makes it clear, those in the flesh only are carnally minded which is enmity against God, those people are still spiritually dead in their flesh. If the Spirit of God dwells in you, then you are not in the flesh, it is very clearly written.
Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit, you must be born again to be in the Spirit and only then do you have eternal life as only then are you HIS in Christ.
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His
Doesn't Paul talk about the body of death that he struggles with in the previous chapter?
Ah, yes; here it is.
Romans 7:23-25 KJV
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve
the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
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Of course. We are a spirit and a body comprising a soul.
Romans 8 is talking about salvation of the spirit, not of the body.
The characteristics of a spirit led Christian is they please God spiritually and God indwells them.
Romans 8, the carnal minded person is not a saved person, they are not believers in Christ who are born of God.
Nothing in romans 8 implies they are saved at all who live according to the flesh.
All born of God still have this old physical body, and in Romans 8, Paul says this about the body we still have,
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.
So you can see Romans 8 is talking of the unsaved carnal minded people who live according to the flesh, versus those spiritually minded who live according to the Spirit (God)
In Romans 7, Paul acknowledges the wretched man he is as he is still in the body, he also says Christ will deliver him from the body of sin he still has.
Here's what you wrote earlier:
Scott Downey said:
You think this is works salvation, putting to death the deeds of the body??
Romans 8:13-15
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[a] Father.”
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Paul also says,
2 Corinthians 13
4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you [a]are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.
2 Corinthians 13
4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you [a]are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.
Yes that is absolutely true.
The unsaved live according to the flesh only. They are dead in their sins, not spiritually alive. You did not think such people were saved do you?
I see.
So, your don't believe in eternal security, otherwise known as OSAS. ???
Perhaps we covered this on another topic?
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Actually I do believe in eternal security, but also believe God is continuing His work in us to conform us to the image of Christ.
There is the old man of the flesh and the new man of the Spirit in every saved person.
The old man of the flesh is dead as it says the body is dead because of sin. It will not be saved, only the spiritual part of us is saved, we get a new glorified body on the Last Day for the age of the resurrection, that old body is toast.
The unsaved remain the old man of the flesh, spiritually dead inside and are not redeemed by the Lord, they perish in hell.
You are adding a caveat.
Previously you said we had to pass the test to be saved.
Now you say: "The unsaved live according to the flesh only."
Which means we can live according to the flesh at times and still be saved.
A contradiction to your earlier claim of needing to pass the test to be saved.
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I agree with that.
I don't agree with that.
James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.
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I think your mixing up the idea here of what it means to live according to the flesh...
People who live according to the flesh are in the flesh only, they are spiritually dead.
Pass the test to be saved? Well, those who live according to the Spirit walk according to the Spirit. You will see a difference in how they live their lives compared to the unsaved. There is something called the fruit of the Spirit versus the works of the flesh. All saved people will have some fruit of the Spirit in their life, and that shows to all they are not conformed to the unsaved world, who practice the works of the flesh unrepentingly..
You do not believe in eternal condemnation?
Christ tells us a lot about that.
Here is one
Mark 3:29
but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation” —
Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Well, they won't
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Well, they won't
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
The saved have no condemnation, they are spiritually alive to God and joined as one spirit with God. This is an unbreakable covenant.
The unsaved though have condemnation
John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
Those who did good, repented at the Teaching of Jesus and believed in the son of God. That was a good thing they did.
They were obedient to the message of the gospel, that in His name is preached the forgiveness of sins.
the others, unbelieving, die in their sins unforgiven, the only place left for them is hell.
The saved have no condemnation, they are spiritually alive to God and joined as one spirit with God. This is an unbreakable covenant.
The unsaved though have condemnation
John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
Those who did good, repented at the Teaching of Jesus and believed in the son of God. That was a good thing they did.
They were obedient to the message of the gospel, that in His name is preached the forgiveness of sins.
the others, unbelieving, die in their sins unforgiven, the only place left for them is hell.
Seriously?
I don't buy the unbiblical evangelical apologetic for "the unforgivable sin".
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is to credit the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan.
Like the Pharisees did when they claimed Jesus was casting out demons by Beelzebub.
Same chapter. (a house divided)
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But you said you don't believe in eternal condemnation, so I gave you a clear example.
We are all going there. But none of us will remain.
Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.
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