God as heavenly parent - the dysfunctional view we inherited

[Scott Downey]

People don't work there way out of hell, or hades. They remain there eternally after Christ was resurrected.
Christ said He was the Door.
You can not enter without Christ. The unbelieving are not his people, not his sheep of His pasture.

 

[Scott Downey]

We are all going there. But none of us will remain.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

/

John 5:24
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

No Final Judgement Day coming for believers in Christ. No danger of condemnation either. Only loss of rewards is possible for them.

Everyone salted with fire, simply means all will experience a judgement. For believers it will be the judgement seat of Christ.
For unbelievers the final judgement, like the final solution to evil things.

Mark 9:49

“For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt.​

 

[St. SteVen]

But you said you don't believe in eternal condemnation, so I gave you a clear example.

Like I said, I don't buy the unbiblical evangelical apologetic for "the unforgivable sin".
It says in the age or the next. Do you know how many ages there will be?

Have you seen this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

/

 

[Scott Downey]

That fire for believers is here
1 Cor 3
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

It happens on the Last Day, this is not some long drawn-out suffering process in hell, hades or some other place.

 

[St. SteVen]

People don't work there way out of hell, or hades. They remain there eternally after Christ was resurrected.

Agree.
It's not a labor camp. It's an age of restoration, reconciliation, and redemption.

Christ said He was the Door.
You can not enter without Christ. The unbelieving are not his people, not his sheep of His pasture.

Agree.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead),
will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.
No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.
Christ died and returned to life so that he might be
the Lord of both the dead and the living.
(the reason for the bodily resurrection)
Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

/

 

[St. SteVen]

That fire for believers is here
1 Cor 3
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

It happens on the Last Day, this is not some long drawn-out suffering process in hell, hades or some other place.

Agree.
Except for everyone. Not believers only.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

People don't work there way out of hell, or hades. They remain there eternally after Christ was resurrected.

Not quite. IMHO

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead),
will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

/

 

[Scott Downey]

Like I said, I don't buy the unbiblical evangelical apologetic for "the unforgivable sin".
It says in the age or the next. Do you know how many ages there will be?

Have you seen this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

/

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: Θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14.

the 'eternal God' is Aionios, however He is from everlasting to everlasting

 

[Scott Downey]

Not quite. IMHO

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead),
will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

/

Demons will also bow the knee, Satan too, are you saying they will be saved??

 

[Scott Downey]

They will acknowledge Christ from Hellfire, but there is no eternal salvation for them. This is to the glory of God, not salvation
Each one is in his own place, note under the earth, they abide in hell - death.

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Good example for consciousness after physical death there.

 

[St. SteVen]

Demons will also bow the knee, Satan too, are you saying they will be saved??

The short answer is "Yes." (hard for you to hear, I know)

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should he do with his? Incinerate them? - LOL
Forgiving Satan and the demons will be the ultimate triumph of mercy and grace.

But, like everyone else they will answer for their crimes.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Demons will also bow the knee, Satan too, are you saying they will be saved??

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

/

 

[St. SteVen]

I want to hear from others about how they view this subject.
- What is your view of parenting?
- What is your view of our heavenly parent?
- How did/does your view of your own parents effect your view of God as Father?
- Have you projected the image of a dysfunctional parent on your heavenly parent?

/

 

[MA2444]

No human parent is perfect. (obviously)
Even if we nominated one, they would probably decline the designation. (in humbleness)

What about our heavenly parent, God the Father?

I love this parenthetical found in the Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (see bold)

Ephesians 3:14-15 AMPC
"For this reason [[a]seeing the greatness of this plan by which you are built together in Christ],
I bow my knees before the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 For Whom every family in heaven and on earth is named
[that Father from Whom all fatherhood takes its title and derives its name]."

In a recent topic title I asked:

Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?​

In the Op I wrote this:

"The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so.

They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That it is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us.

The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes His head when he sees us

An unreasonable expectation that we can never meet. Not accepted for who we are, or where we are at

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not what I see in God. I see a loving heavenly Father

His kids are always welcome in his lap. He's intensely interested in them

He puts everything aside to listen to them. He glories in their presence

Can hardly wait to see them again when they return. Delights in them

There is a line down the center of this post, Which side of the line are you on? Top, or bottom?"


Link to topic.

Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?

The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so. They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That it is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us. The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes His head when he sees us. An...

www.christianityboard.com

So, this new topic is an extension of that previous topic, but with the focus on God as our heavenly parent.

How does your view of parenting, or of a father effect your view of God?
If we are modeling godly parenting, our children should have a healthy view of our heavenly parent.

I'm thankful that I have a good relationship with my adult children.
But this meant owning up to some things that went wrong early on.
Fortunately, I have found that children are very willing to forgive. (in my case)
So, when I swallowed my pride, they met me more than halfway.

I want to hear from others about how they view this subject.
- What is your view of parenting?
- What is your view of our heavenly parent?
- How did/does your view of your own parents effect your view of God as Father?
- Have you projected the image of a dysfunctional parent on your heavenly parent?

That's prolly the most profound revelation that I had when I began walking with the Lord seriously in 2009. That the Lord is not a big mean angry God who wants to hurt us, He is a compassionate Loving and generous God who wants to help us and save us.

Why do people seem to see God as an angry God? That couldn't be further from the truth! This thread shows you have been paying attention! Very astute in today's world.

 

[MA2444]

Oh, I forgot to answer these questions:

- What is your view of parenting?
- What is your view of our heavenly parent?
- How did/does your view of your own parents effect your view of God as Father?
- Have you projected the image of a dysfunctional parent on your heavenly parent?

-I have come to view parenting as a type & shadow of God. Have your kids ever been disrespectful to you or have you been disappointed in them in any way? I have. How much more so God? We have done the same things to Him.

-Sometimes I think about how it will be, say, 200,000 years from now? How we will look back and laugh at how stupid we were! So God as our heavenly parent He will always love us and forgive us, and as we mature into spiritual being that Abba can be proud of one day! (And how Longduffering He is with us now!) I don't feel like "the bad kid". More like, the "slow learner Kid". (Actually, all mankind are apparent slow-learners, Lol!)

-By the time I began putting these things together, both of my parents had passed on. But I had a good childhood as far I'm concerned. No tragedies or abuse or anything weird. And now I realize that my parents did make some mistakes, nobody is perfect. And even so, since I can even say that I had a good childhood (by man's standards)...how much moreso God?! Now I see the world as a carnival of death and we are Toddlers holding our Abba's hand. But everything looks so good and smells so good...and every funhouse is a funhouse of death. So it's important for us to not let go of the Daddy's hand. Because you know we would wind up wandering off and getting hurt or in trouble!

-Absolutely not! Having earthly parents gives a chance to practice being good kids for them before we can meet our real parent and get to know Him. It went south because some troublemakers started a war with God by attacking His creation since he can't touch God. What is the hallmark of a good parent when they have a troublesome child? (Or an outright Brat?) It is longsuffering and compassion and mercy. Lots of Mercy! And from our perspective, the more time that we spend with our real parent, the more they have the oppurtunity to teach us to be good children. Who obey Him.

 

[St. SteVen]

That's prolly the most profound revelation that I had when I began walking with the Lord seriously in 2009. That the Lord is not a big mean angry God who wants to hurt us, He is a compassionate Loving and generous God who wants to help us and save us.

Why do people seem to see God as an angry God? That couldn't be further from the truth! This thread shows you have been paying attention! Very astute in today's world.

Welcome to the forum.

I love what you are saying here.
You obviously understand where I am coming from.
(but perhaps only in general) ???

I have tons of other topics. You might like one of these.

Sugar coating hell - the bitter pill​

"Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) A follow-up to the previous topic: The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it? The hell doctrine has always been "the fly in the ointment" for me. Being raised evangelical, I was fine with all of it, (didn't know any...

The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?​

Even very by-the-book Christians are modifying their views on hell, or the afterlife. As the previous trend for fire-and-brimstone preaching has all but gone the way of the dinosaur. Leaning toward a more personalized stance on "eternal separation from God". (whatever that means to you) -...

The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity​

What's your view on the final judgement? Here are the three popular biblical views: 1) Damnationism 2) Annihilationism 3) Universalism All three views are biblical, all three views are in DIRECT conflict.

Jesus talked about hell more than any other person in the Bible. - Seriously?​

Brook Potter “When someone says that Jesus taught about Hell more than anything else in his earthly ministry, it’s obvious that person get’s their theology from Christian Television more so than from study.” One of the most common logical fallacies used by Christians is the fallacy of...

Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?​

Perhaps the best evidence that no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell. Or that no one really loves their neighbors. Take your pick. If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there. I can hear the reply coming now. "I didn't...

/

 

[Scott Downey]

Oh, I forgot to answer these questions:

- What is your view of parenting?
- What is your view of our heavenly parent?
- How did/does your view of your own parents effect your view of God as Father?
- Have you projected the image of a dysfunctional parent on your heavenly parent?

-I have come to view parenting as a type & shadow of God. Have your kids ever been disrespectful to you or have you been disappointed in them in any way? I have. How much more so God? We have done the same things to Him.

-Sometimes I think about how it will be, say, 200,000 years from now? How we will look back and laugh at how stupid we were! So God as our heavenly parent He will always love us and forgive us, and as we mature into spiritual being that Abba can be proud of one day! (And how Longduffering He is with us now!) I don't feel like "the bad kid". More like, the "slow learner Kid". (Actually, all mankind are apparent slow-learners, Lol!)

-By the time I began putting these things together, both of my parents had passed on. But I had a good childhood as far I'm concerned. No tragedies or abuse or anything weird. And now I realize that my parents did make some mistakes, nobody is perfect. And even so, since I can even say that I had a good childhood (by man's standards)...how much moreso God?! Now I see the world as a carnival of death and we are Toddlers holding our Abba's hand. But everything looks so good and smells so good...and every funhouse is a funhouse of death. So it's important for us to not let go of the Daddy's hand. Because you know we would wind up wandering off and getting hurt or in trouble!

-Absolutely not! Having earthly parents gives a chance to practice being good kids for them before we can meet our real parent and get to know Him. It went south because some troublemakers started a war with God by attacking His creation since he can't touch God. What is the hallmark of a good parent when they have a troublesome child? (Or an outright Brat?) It is longsuffering and compassion and mercy. Lots of Mercy! And from our perspective, the more time that we spend with our real parent, the more they have the oppurtunity to teach us to be good children. Who obey Him.

And who are the children of God whom He parents?

 

[MA2444]

Welcome to the forum.

I love what you are saying here.
You obviously understand where I am coming from.
(but perhaps only in general) ???

I have tons of other topics. You might like one of these.

Sugar coating hell - the bitter pill​

"Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) A follow-up to the previous topic: The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it? The hell doctrine has always been "the fly in the ointment" for me. Being raised evangelical, I was fine with all of it, (didn't know any...

The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?​

Even very by-the-book Christians are modifying their views on hell, or the afterlife. As the previous trend for fire-and-brimstone preaching has all but gone the way of the dinosaur. Leaning toward a more personalized stance on "eternal separation from God". (whatever that means to you) -...

The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity​

What's your view on the final judgement? Here are the three popular biblical views: 1) Damnationism 2) Annihilationism 3) Universalism All three views are biblical, all three views are in DIRECT conflict.

Jesus talked about hell more than any other person in the Bible. - Seriously?​

Brook Potter “When someone says that Jesus taught about Hell more than anything else in his earthly ministry, it’s obvious that person get’s their theology from Christian Television more so than from study.” One of the most common logical fallacies used by Christians is the fallacy of...

Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?​

Perhaps the best evidence that no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell. Or that no one really loves their neighbors. Take your pick. If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there. I can hear the reply coming now. "I didn't...

/

I did sorta take it and run with it huh? Lol. I never said that God wont do what He said He would do to the incorrigible ones. It's just that, walking with the Lord for awhile it becomes apparent that the Lord's character towards us is mighty different than to the evil ones. He is everything to us, our redeemer, healer, savior, provider, and everything else. We will die without Him. So their greatest torment will be the eternal seperation from God. They may not think so on earth but will later. And conversely, our reward is the exact opposite...the eternal presence of the Lord God.

When Jesus walks into the room His very presence exudes total love and acceptance (and at the same time a wee bit of terror that, this is God!). It's hard to describe but the atmosphere in the room thickened and it was like power in the air. But a good power, loving. Overwhelming waves of love.

Jesus did that to me one time. He did not manifest so that I could see Him, but He did speak audibly to me. I knew in every cell of my being that it was Jesus and I recognized His voice. I remember thinking, how can I recognize His voice? I don't remember ever hearing Him before! But I knew His voice. I acted like an idiot like Zechariah did and almost got myself in trouble, but that is for a different thread I think.

But the point is, I realized that the presence of God living with us, is our reward in Heaven! I have never felt the presence of God more than I did that day ever before, or since!

 

[MA2444]

And who are the children of God whom He parents?

All of us. Didn't He write a book about each one of us before the foundation of the world, with a plan for our life?

Now in the OT, the bene el Elohim term that is used for Angels but even more precisely for a direct creation of God, like Angels were, like Adam was. Eve was taken out of Adam so is a direct creationso can be called one of sons of God. All of their children were bilogically made so to speak. But then men messed up and fell so mankind were not the sons of God, but upon the advent of Jesus coming to earth, now because He paid the price, we have been given the power to become the sons of God. So I guess nowadays, the sons of God are dedicated christian people who have accept the Lord Jesus as their redeemer and savior.

Or so it seems to me...

The people that are destined for hell are not sons of God, for their Father is the Devil.

I don't think that people become the sons of God instantly when they are born again. That's when they have been given the power to become sons of God. (through dedication and obeying).

 

[Scott Downey]

All of us. Didn't He write a book about each one of us before the foundation of the world, with a plan for our life?

Now in the OT, the bene el Elohim term that is used for Angels but even more precisely for a direct creation of God, like Angels were, like Adam was. Eve was taken out of Adam so is a direct creationso can be called one of sons of God. All of their children were bilogically made so to speak. But then men messed up and fell so mankind were not the sons of God, but upon the advent of Jesus coming to earth, now because He paid the price, we have been given the power to become the sons of God. So I guess nowadays, the sons of God are dedicated christian people who have accept the Lord Jesus as their redeemer and savior.

Or so it seems to me...

The people that are destined for hell are not sons of God, for their Father is the Devil.

I don't think that people become the sons of God instantly when they are born again. That's when they have been given the power to become sons of God. (through dedication and obeying).

Get your teaching from scripture only, because of demons who teach men the doctrines of demons. And many of those men taught thereof believe it.

Here is who has the right to be called children of God, anyone else does not have that right, as they are not.

John 1

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And there are many other supporting words of God to the same effect.

1 John 3:1

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.​