God is male/female

[Mr E]

I don’t have to care what biblical scholars has to say. I trust God to help me in understanding what he has put forth by the hands of Moses. If it leads me to hurt others, then that is something I need to change. But I don’t see anything wrong with what I have stated.

This is a little disingenuous for a guy who has followed Shawn McCraney around like a puppy for years on end.

 

[Mr E]

Men and women have different hormones. The predominant male hormone is testosterone whilst female hormones are oestrogen and progesterone.

I'm not disputing any of that, and it's why I said 'maybe you do think of trees as male and/or female. It's not wrong to do so, because of course there are differences. Just as there are different "attributes" of male and/or female.... things 'attributed' to one or the other, or one and not the other. But those physical distinctions are merely representative of spiritual distinctions. In the beginning male and female.... later male or female, as they were once together, then separated.

 

[Mr E]

If one views the Bible as some sort of God's Ouija Board that one simply has to consult and receive answers, I think this is very dangerous. Many who do take this approach seem to have the same sort of mental quirks (to put it charitably) that one finds in cults, conspiracy communities and other aberrant groups. They start weird and end up really weird - and far from what the huge body of biblical scholars understands the same passages to be saying.

The fact is, the Bible is an ancient collection of diverse writings authored over a long period. Every book has its history. Schiolars from multiple disciplines have an understanding of every book, in terms of history, theology and context, that is far different from the understanding of the typical quirky do-it-yourselfer or even the typical literalist inerrantist. There isn't always scholarly unanimity or even consensus, but the debate can be useful too.

I think it's a matter of your basic understanding of what the Bible is - God's Ouija Board or God's word but still an ancient book on which multiple disciplines can shed greater light than any of us can achieve on our own.

That said, 'consensus' doesn't necessitate truth. There is no equivalence there. It's like 'orthodoxy.' Just because everyone is going along with some idea and have been for a long time, that doesn't make it right. It can be completely wrong and completely agreed upon.

The Ouija Board comparison is your own. I don't think @MatthewG suggested that in any way.

I do agree with you that the writings are diverse and that we can benefit from considering many perspectives to form our own. In the end, we all end up with our own opinions, often based upon the opinions of others. And then there's revelation, which isn't derived from men, but by spirit. These too are found throughout scripture and the telling of which became the content that we call-- scripture. The rest is all opinion and belief.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'm not disputing any of that, and it's why I said 'maybe you do think of trees as male and/or female. It's not wrong to do so, because of course there are differences. Just as there are different "attributes" of male and/or female.... things 'attributed' to one or the other, or one and not the other. But those physical distinctions are merely representative of spiritual distinctions. In the beginning male and female.... later male or female, as they were once together, then separated.

Maybe another story …but what gets me with will He find Fruit is when He stood at the fig looking to find Fruit, and found none. Or all the times He exclaimed “I tell you in all of Jerusalem, I have not found fruit..” except for this …poor widow? I can’t find the verses…

 

[MatthewG]

God made man and woman for a purpose, uniquely _ and assigned them roles. What you are in asking (in a round about way) is shouldn't people have the right to change their sexual identity and shouldn't we accept the LGBT folks (who really suffer from mental disorder), right? NO.

I am just speaking about God's expression. From what someone told me yesterday, when a person who ends up chopping their own (explict) off, and they come to the right mind, they typically in a 95% rate get surgery to fix that issues. There are many problems we as human beings that all of us get flustered, and we get inflicted with pain, be it mentally, or physically, people though even in those facets of life, come to the Lord Jesus Christ, and to say no there is no way, is a terrible decision to make, in the face of the LORD and the Lord Jesus Christ whom paid for all people sins.

 

[Mr E]

Never considered the above before …is there no more freewoman and bondwoman?

I should have expected you to dig deeper.

In this manner of thinking there is also a distinction. It isn't so much a divide between male and female that is pointed to, but between the above and the below. The broader principle is that there is a spiritual man (above) and a physical woman (below). Or even beyond that, and more simply-- the Jerusalem above (the heavenly, or spiritual realm) and the Jerusalem below (the earthly, physical realm) and one is a reflection (likeness) of the other, while distinctly different.

I’ve considered it in regards to born of the freewoman; Jerusalem which is above and is free, which is the mother of us all. …So then, brothers, we are are not children of the bondwoman(of sin unto death) , but of the free(of righteousness unto Life).
Galatians 4:22-24,26,30-31

When Wisdom is spoken of in Proverbs she is personified as “feminine” “take hold of her teaching” is it horrible to accredit Jerusalem above as the freewoman, the Mother which gives birth to the children of God as being in One Agreement with the Father and the Son delivered? out from the freewoman comes Wisdom that feeds the children of God the Father and nurses babes up into growth and full maturity? It is said what comes forth from her, given from that which is above is different from what is handled down through men. That this that comes from above given of the seed of Christ which God planted, out of a womb of “the freewoman” is
James 3:17-18 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Those above are sons and daughters (children of the free woman) -- free.

Those below are imprisoned (children of the bondwoman) -- slaves.

Is this earthly plane a prison? Without a doubt, it is. This is the abode of the walking dead.

With respect to Wisdom-- you can't escape the fact that this 'spirit' is feminine, which James recognizes. The companion of the man is female and she guides and guards him, not as an external force, but from within the kingdom-- from the inside. It's from within that the child is conceived and carried-- this seed that forms and matures is spiritual, not physical in nature.

 

[MatthewG]

This is a key point actually. God (elohim) made Adam (mankind) in their (plural) image-- male and female they created mankind-- before Eve was taken out of man.

Then the elohim said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness...

Elohim created humankind in their own image,
in the image of elohim they created them,
male and female they created them.

I'm responding in order as I work through this thread, but since Heiser is later invoked-- this is where his ideas come from. He recognizes that there is a spiritual realm where there are spiritual sons of God-- divine beings, who are the offspring of God through the spirit, who partake in creation.

I believe today that there are Sons and Daughters out there whom are adopted by the Father.

These divine ones form for themselves tselem -- images, is the word used in translations, but it would be far more accurate to note that what they made is likenesses of themselves. Idols.

There are many gods that are looked as divine, and they are indeed divine. I do not see a problem with Yahavah, making man and female as his expressed images which he gave life to by his very breathe, which is giving us his likeness, to be able to have a mind, will, and emotions. All of man kind are able to express both expresses either way it goes, however there is only one heavenly expression, while one is an earthly expession by and through the flesh. When it comes to people worshiping gods, or even idols, that does happen. And we do not see God here, worshiping his creation.

The stories you've been told and the lies you've been sold aren't even half the story.

Not sure what you are referring to here.

But, for the moment-- the point I'm emphasizing is that humankind (adam) was created originally with male and female attributes (spiritually, not physically) and at some later moment in time, the female (half) of him was taken out and from that Eve came to be. All of this in spirit, in the heavens, in Paradise.... before the fall of man.

Some can say, or say that God was the first surgeon to operate on earth. I believe, that God lived with Adam and eve in the garden, and they were able to talk to God, and he would come talk to them by the wind.

The Holy Spirit is expressly female. It's not even questionable. The mystery of this 'part of God' is revealed through this principle --- 'On earth as it is in heaven.' Now folks can say-- we don't really know how things work in heaven, and that is true. But we do know how things work on earth, which is a reflection of all above.

Yes, I would agree too that the Holy Spirit of Yahavah, is expressed as female, in the proverbs, and pslams. Perhaps other places, where Jesus spoke about the Holy Spirit of Yahavah, which brings forth fruits of goodness in our life which are expressed in love, - which is defined in 1 Corinthains 13.

On earth, a man and a woman unite. The woman is seeded by the man and she conceives. An offspring is formed as a direct result of this union and a child is born. It would be a violation of this principle for things to be any different in a spiritual sense and God is not a deceiver. In the heavens the Father and Mother united, produce offspring. God is spirit. In the divine sense it is the union of these two parts that produce offspring. Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Yes. Someone told me the other day that God lives in all people, with that notion, if a person did not desire God to be in them he could move out by the persons desire, but over all, when a person becomes spiritually born again, and understands that they can reach out and talk to God, and be able to ask him for help by the spirit, and remember the things of the Lord Jesus, with God indwelling them, it's just the same as marriage.

It would be a mistake to limit your understanding of God to a plurality.

I don't find it something to worship about, but something that can be explained about concerning God's expression. Not that I talk alot about this topic all that much anyway, just thought it would be thought provoking one to say the least.

God is all. The separating of the female aspect from the male depicted in scripture as Eve being taken out of and formed from Adam is an image (reflection) of something heavenly that happened. Separation is always associated with holiness.

Yes, they were cut off by God by their disobedience. God sent them out the Garden, after seeing them covering themseleves in (religion) fig leafs, and killed a deer and also was the first sower on earth. They were separated the moment they ate, and it's funny they both do not take responsibility for their actions now in front of God, from when they were so free before.

To 'set apart' or divide parts one from another to create two distinct entities that come from one source. Two equal parts in the beginning, before the fall. This becomes a deep conversation quickly, but people often ask where did evil come from (?) and questions like -Did God create evil? No

I believe darkness existed because of God's existence. God dwelled in clouds of darkness when he entered the temple, and darkness has always represented the absence of light, and with that absence, is the absence of God, which there lies no good.

-- He separated himself from that part of Him.

I do not know.

Would that make the Holy Spirit in some way-evil? Not in the least.

Not at all.

But God alone- is set apart. The Father is above all and set apart. He doesn't touch the flesh and the flesh cannot approach Him. He does battle with the flesh through the Holy Spirit--- and just like Eve, she was created as a companion for us in this war between spirit and flesh. The battle is waged in and through the spirit.

We battle with our flesh now, and the spirit of God which dwells inside of us desires for us to share light, and not darkness.

This is the story in a nutshell. What was separated is restored and brought back into perfect union. Jesus explains it well in John 15 and 16, saying he came from the Father and is returning to Him. Jesus says- "I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth." In other places, this companion is called the comforter. But it goes something like this... The Father is in me and I am in the Father and I will be in you and you will be in me... and this Holy Spirit/Advocate/Companion will reside in you in this same way the Father resides in me.

Amen!

And one day-- all those who are found 'in Him' will return to Him-- the Son will become a Bride Collector and all those in his body- the body of Christ will be presented before the Father, as a pure and spotless bride and perfect unity will be restored.

I do believe this has already happened, for those first generation believers, but to digress, we all have to die sometime, and will be made alive again. Good to know God now, rather than later they always say. But not because of hell. Because of God's great goodness, love, mercy, and desire for all to come the knowledge of the Son of God.

There's nothing "gay" about it. It's as far from gay as you can get. It's about male and female being perfectly united. It's about redemption and restoration.

Makes me happy.

Thank you for the comments.

 

[Mr E]

Maybe another story …but what gets me with will He find Fruit is when He stood at the fig looking to find Fruit, and found none. Or all the times He exclaimed “I tell you in all of Jerusalem, I have not found fruit..” except for this …poor widow? I can’t find the verses…

I think that's a mash-up version of a couple of stories, but still good.

The expectation of us-- from the very beginning, is that we will produce fruit. 'Be fruitful and multiply' was the first commandment and it envelops our purpose, and it has nothing to do with making babies in a physical sense.

Will we produce fruit, both in season and out of season?

 

[MatthewG]

I’ve considered it in regards to born of the freewoman; Jerusalem which is above and is free, which is the mother of us all. …So then, brothers, we are are not children of the bondwoman(of sin unto death) , but of the free(of righteousness unto Life).
Galatians 4:22-24,26,30-31

When Wisdom is spoken of in Proverbs she is personified as “feminine” “take hold of her teaching” is it horrible to accredit Jerusalem above as the freewoman, the Mother which gives birth to the children of God as being in One Agreement with the Father and the Son delivered? out from the freewoman comes Wisdom that feeds the children of God the Father and nurses babes up into growth and full maturity? It is said what comes forth from her, given from that which is above is different from what is handled down through men. That this that comes from above given of the seed of Christ which God planted, out of a womb of “the freewoman” is
James 3:17-18 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Thank you for that, Victory, that is some good information everyone should consider here. Also isn't this referred to by Paul, concerning the freewoman and bondwoman and it was in reference to Abrahams day?

 

[MatthewG]

If one is trusting truly in God, while not always following the ways of the biblical scholars, how would that be the way to error or to madness?

Biblical scholars, like any man following God, can be right, but like any man, quenching the Spirit, they can be wrong. The important thing I see it, is as @MatthewG indicated, is to trust God in our seeking:

Mt 6:33

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

1th 5:19

Quench not the Spirit.

Who then are the sons of God?

Ro 8:14

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Who then are those to be like Him?

1jo 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Yes, that is the utmost important John, for any single individual to know. God is near, he is listens, and he sees. He desires to help, and we can seek his help by reaching out in faith. He will comfort us by his spirit, and shower us in the ability to have love for others while we are here on earth seeking him first, which is in faith, and is a rewarder of those who seek him and seeks for such to do so.

 

[MatthewG]

“For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.” (1 Corinthians 11:7, KJV)

Pauls comment here to the Corinthians, doesn't negate the expressions which God had made. He made man and woman in his image. People desire to comment on how that it was Adam and then Eve. I get that, but it was God's doing which he expressed himself, and thus created also female. God's expression of mascluine and feminine are unique to him. But also us as human beings. Normally it's man who desires to beat the breaks off the guy who slept with his wife. And Normally it's mom we run to for comfort, cause Dad can be mean sometimes. Or however you would like to put it to an example. There are people out there, who are able to express either way it goes, and they can also express heavenly love, when they are spiritually awoke from their spiritually dead state. It's just interesting, because its look more into not just the fleshly distinctions of male and female. It's looking at traits which God attributed to all of us by his creation, of Adam.

 

[MatthewG]

This is a little disingenuous for a guy who has followed Shawn McCraney around like a puppy for years on end.

From a person who grew up with no father, I needed someone like a Parent in my life. Shawn Mccranney is my friend.

 

[O'Darby]

That said, 'consensus' doesn't necessitate truth. There is no equivalence there. It's like 'orthodoxy.' Just because everyone is going along with some idea and have been for a long time, that doesn't make it right. It can be completely wrong and completely agreed upon.

The Ouija Board comparison is your own. I don't think @MatthewG suggested that in any way.

I do agree with you that the writings are diverse and that we can benefit from considering many perspectives to form our own. In the end, we all end up with our own opinions, often based upon the opinions of others. And then there's revelation, which isn't derived from men, but by spirit. These too are found throughout scripture and the telling of which became the content that we call-- scripture. The rest is all opinion and belief.

No, but the do-it-yourselfer is playing a dangerous game in relying solely on "the Bible, God and Me" for his understanding. This is certainly what I get out of @MatthewG's posts, which are consistently eccentric - well-meaning and often interesting, but quite eccentric. I may have eccentric views as well (no, REALLY?), but I make damn sure they are as well-informed and rational as I can possibly make them. It isn't just the Bible, God and Me by a long shot. (This may not be strictly true of MatthewG either, but it is how many of his posts are worded.)

It's a delicate subject, but there is as much aberrant psychology in the Christian community as any other. I see a great deal of it on these forums and every Christian forum. A fair portion of my legal career was spent committing those with Serious Mental Illness for treatment. I have also made a very in-depth study of the scientific and sociological literature related to conspiratorial thinking and fundamentalist thinking. It's not all pathological, but it's a definite psychological profile that leads to a lot of what we see on these forums (and every forum). If I can walk the tightrope of compassion, I'm going to try to write a blog entry about it.

In many cases, it seems to me, those who seem the most troubled have an obsessive focus on the Bible, think it is speaking directly to them (hence the Ouija Board comparison), and operate in the vacuum of their own thinking.

 

[Mr E]

No, but the do-it-yourselfer is playing a dangerous game in relying solely on "the Bible, God and Me" for his understanding. This is certainly what I get out of @MatthewG's posts, which are consistently eccentric - well-meaning and often interesting, but quite eccentric. I may have eccentric views as well (no, REALLY?), but I make damn sure they are as well-informed and rational as I can possibly make them. It isn't just the Bible, God and Me by a long shot. (This may not be strictly true of MatthewG either, but it is how many of his posts are worded.)

It's a delicate subject, but there is as much aberrant psychology in the Christian community as any other. I see a great deal of it on these forums and every Christian forum. A fair portion of my legal career was spent committing those with Serious Mental Illness for treatment. I have also made a very in-depth study of the scientific and sociological literature related to conspiratorial thinking and fundamentalist thinking. It's not all pathological, but it's a definite psychological profile that leads to a lot of what we see on these forums (and every forum). If I can walk the tightrope of compassion, I'm going to try to write a blog entry about it.

In many cases, it seems to me, those who seem the most troubled have an obsessive focus on the Bible, think it is speaking directly to them (hence the Ouija Board comparison), and operate in the vacuum of their own thinking.

Fair points. There are many here who suffer from various forms of mental illness or injury including schizophrenia, paranoia, childhood traumas, ptsd, or other delusions like self-aggrandizement or drug use and alcohol induced disorder.

What’s the saying? In times of chaos and crisis, someone will arise above the confusion and tell everyone to calm down and listen to his instructions. Quite often that person is plain crazy.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Pauls comment here to the Corinthians, doesn't negate the expressions which God had made

God didn’t say otherwise

 

[Mr E]

From a person who grew up with no father, I needed someone like a Parent in my life. Shawn Mccranney is my friend.

He's not just your friend though Matthew. He's your guru.

Yeshuans organically congealed when a small group of disciples of Christ the King got to know each other online and realized that they shared similar views on what is traditionally called Christianity.

Mutually understanding the dissonance between the original intention of Christianity, and whit it represents today these nine souls – Kathy Maggie, Osvaldo Cruz, Adnan Albeitawai, Grady Risely, Sarah Young, Delaney McCraney, Michael Lake, and Mary and Shawn McCraney – decided to form an organization that offers an alternative approach they hope to share with the world.

 

[MatthewG]

He's not just your friend though Matthew. He's your guru.

He is just a man, who gives information to consider. He helped me learn a lot about the bible. I also decided to read for myself, and question what I believe, concerning everything going on in the world itself. It's Jesus over all in the end who helps people learn through others by the Spirit of God that is indwelling them. But we do not put trust into everything that may say, because it could be wrong or it could be right. You have to decide for yourself, just as when we go along with the bible. You are the reader and you are the one whom decides what you take out of it. I'm just glad to be able to give credit where credit is do, because he did help me out, but not as much as the Lord Yeshua, or Jesus, which ever one you perfer, and we call out to Jehovah, Yahweh, or Yahavah how ever you desire to go and worship God in spirit in truth is by seeking him out in faith in which pleases him. Not trying to puff up any flesh, or any say look at me. No one should ever look at me as an authority nor Shawn a guru... He is just a human being... like you, and myself.\\\


(no emotions or feelings were involved in this creation.) Just as a side note. Being forward.

 

[Duck Muscles]

Hi all, new arrival here.

It is strange to argue over God's gender, isn't it? Attaching a human reproductive system image to God .

It is a relationship each of us have with spirit and power. That what created human males and females in God's image and likeness.

I see this as deeply personal for each Christian. When God is spirit God isn't going to take offense from those for whom God is held as feminine energy and spirit.

The Hebrews Patriarchal system, secular and religious, held the male sex and identity as having primacy. And so, identified their God through the same lens.

However, when God created humans in that powerful image and likeness, God made women as life bringers and males as the seed bringers. Women's sex brings life into this world by God's authority as creator.

We each have our own power by God's design.
Does God need us to defend God's workmanship?
John 4:24

 

[Wick Stick]

Chapter and verse please--- where it says they do?

I claimed that something WASN'T in the Bible. It isn't exactly fair to ask me to show where the converse statement does exist in the Bible - I didn't argue that point. But you know what... it doesn't matter, because this is easy:

"Our FATHER, who art in Heaven..."

Or, look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The people of the city wanted to rape the MALE angels and Lot offered them his daughters instead. The story is in large part against homosexuality, and this doesn't make sense if the angels are genderless.

There's also a language consideration - Hebrew doesn't have ANY words in a non-gendered tense. Everything in Hebrew has a gender, and it doesn't have anything to do with sexual organs. The skies are male, the earth is female, a pot is male but a cauldron is female, and so forth.

 

[Mr E]

I claimed that something WASN'T in the Bible. It isn't exactly fair to ask me to show where the converse statement does exist in the Bible - I didn't argue that point. But you know what... it doesn't matter, because this is easy:

"Our FATHER, who art in Heaven..."

Or, look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The people of the city wanted to rape the MALE angels and Lot offered them his daughters instead. The story is in large part against homosexuality, and this doesn't make sense if the angels are genderless.

There's also a language consideration - Hebrew doesn't have ANY words in a non-gendered tense. Everything in Hebrew has a gender, and it doesn't have anything to do with sexual organs. The skies are male, the earth is female, a pot is male but a cauldron is female, and so forth.

Angels are neither male nor female. They are spiritual. If you put on a dress and some lipstick-- it doesn't make you a woman. It's just how you choose to appear and represent yourself. It's just the covering you put on. Though scripture says specifically they were angels, they appeared to the men of Sodom, as men.