God Knew Adam and Eve Would Fall

[michaelvpardo]

Perfect Mormon doctrine, Robertson and terrible understanding of orthodox Christianity.

I'm not a mormon, but Robertson's statement seems closer to sound doctrine than denying God's sovereinty over creation, His omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. If we have to be "deists" to be orthodox, I'd rather be unorthodox and content with knowing God personally. Better to be just one standing with the Lord, than among the many who stand against who He really is. Numbers are meaningless to God. You could ask the prophets of Baal about that, but as far as I know they've disappeared from the earth.

 

[aspen]

I'm not a mormon, but Robertson's statement seems closer to sound doctrine than denying God's sovereinty over creation, His omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. If we have to be "deists" to be orthodox, I'd rather be unorthodox and content with knowing God personally. Better to be just one standing with the Lord, than among the many who stand against who He really is. Numbers are meaningless to God. You could ask the prophets of Baal about that, but as far as I know they've disappeared from the earth.

If you think I am denying God's sovereignty then you do not understand my posts. I reject deism, which is the end result of Protestant thinking.

 

[michaelvpardo]

If you think I am denying God's sovereignty then you do not understand my posts. I reject deism, which is the end result of Protestant thinking.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your posts, but it does seem like you're quick to label people. Are you protestant? I've never belonged to a protestant church myself, only the Roman Catholic church until I was old enough to make my own decisions, and an unaffiliated "Baptist" church, which was more of a "Bible church" than traditional Baptist, after having received Christ by faith some thirty six years later. I'd have thought you'd have to be a protestant in order to know how one thinks, or perhaps be omniscient. Are you referring to protestant doctrine? Exactly which protestants do you believe are deists? Inquiring minds would like to know.

 

[aspen]

Perhaps I'm not understanding your posts, but it does seem like you're quick to label people. Are you protestant? I've never belonged to a protestant church myself, only the Roman Catholic church until I was old enough to make my own decisions, and an unaffiliated "Baptist" church, which was more of a "Bible church" than traditional Baptist, after having received Christ by faith some thirty six years later. I'd have thought you'd have to be a protestant in order to know how one thinks, or perhaps be omniscient. Are you referring to protestant doctrine? Exactly which protestants do you believe are deists? Inquiring minds would like to know.

I was Protestant until I decided to join the RCC about 12 years ago. I gained much of my foundation in theology from Protestants like CS Lewis, Jerry Sittser, Dale Bruner, and others. I am not a fan of Calvinism, however, I share quite a bit of Protestant thought along with Catholic ideas.

I am starting to think that the term 'dualism' morphed into 'deism' during our conversation. I do not think there are many pure Deists out there, anymore. I did make the statement that deism is the end result of Protestant thought because I believe hyper-Protestant thought leads in that direction - on the other hand, hyper-Catholic thought leads to superstition.

As far as labeling people, I think I am trying to grasp for understanding in the posts I read and comment on. In order to do this, I tend to draw conclusions from the ideas presented.

Dualism, is much more prevalent in pop-Christianity today than deism. God vs. Satan; Good vs. Evil; Saints vs. Sinners; believing that we need to know evil to appreciate good; Spirit vs. the physical body - all of it is dualistic. It presupposes that evil is an equal force and powerful enough to oppose God. It is all false. Evil is lesser good, not an equal force. The Devil is a cautionary tale - a created being who gave into selfishness instead of love or unselfishness. I believe dualism is inherent within humanity because it resulted from the Fall, but it must be overcome. Instead of running around pretending to know good from evil, we need to leave the job to God, who is Good and can therefore determine right from wrong. We were created to love, not judge.

 

[jiggyfly]

Aspen how else can one know forgiveness?

 

[aspen]

Great question!

God always makes terrible situations better than they were before the situation occurred in the first place. Forgiveness, which I believe is the highest form of love we as humans can know, is that blessing.

 

[jiggyfly]

But if there is no wrongdoing then there is no need for forgiveness, is there?

 

[aspen]

Forgiveness is a blessing for sure, but it is not worth rupturing our relationship with God in the Garden.

Marriage can survive infidelity and become even stronger afterwards, but it is never worth it.

 

[day]

Aspen...

How convenient? Didn't Christ answered the same to the Jews... even in this you can't believe? Of course not, you think you have free will.

What more can I tell you Aspen? You don't believe anything, even if I show it to you by the bible like I've already done in many ways.

I have shown you all I said by the bible, you just don't believe because it doesn't make sense to you... I have shown you what should be your joy, and instead you refuse all.

All you're asking I've answered more than once, but you still make questions like it's the first time we're talking... GOD's goodness is not man's goodness and HIS justice and righteousness
are not ours, there's where you always fail because after all this you continue to judge HIM as a man.... when you understand this I'll continue, because what I should have shown you I already did, you just didn't believe it, and for that I can't do nothing else.

DAY...



Hi Day, well, I guess you know Isaiah ...

I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else, {there is} no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that {there is} none beside me. I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! {Let} the potsherd {strive} with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Woe unto him that saith unto {his} father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, {even} my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaías 45:5-12

Tell why is this wrong?
Nowhere in the Bible HE says man has free will but the opposite its all over the bible, still everyone preaches free will... in many places HE shows and says directly that HE creates evil, still every one says "HE does not create evil". Why Day?
Let me hear your version too of why this is wrong...

What I think you are saying does not make any sense to me. Are you saying that everything is pre-arranged? What is the point of consciousness if we cannot use it to make choices? I see choice all over the Scriptures, in fact the whole point of Scripture is to allow us "informed consent" or "choice".
And as regards your Isaiah reference above, I do not see darkness as inherently evil, and where your text says "evil" I have seen texts use "strife" or other comparable terms that more directly relate to the preceding "peace". In any case there is a difference between the "evil" of the negative impact of natural processes (like a tornado), and moral evil. I think the Isaiah text is referring to "natural" evils.
It is the same as if you had a dog you let run free in the neighborhood and it bit someone. By letting the dog run free you created the environment in which a bite could take place, but you did not force the dog to bite.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I was Protestant until I decided to join the RCC about 12 years ago. I gained much of my foundation in theology from Protestants like CS Lewis, Jerry Sittser, Dale Bruner, and others. I am not a fan of Calvinism, however, I share quite a bit of Protestant thought along with Catholic ideas.

I am starting to think that the term 'dualism' morphed into 'deism' during our conversation. I do not think there are many pure Deists out there, anymore. I did make the statement that deism is the end result of Protestant thought because I believe hyper-Protestant thought leads in that direction - on the other hand, hyper-Catholic thought leads to superstition.

As far as labeling people, I think I am trying to grasp for understanding in the posts I read and comment on. In order to do this, I tend to draw conclusions from the ideas presented.

Dualism, is much more prevalent in pop-Christianity today than deism. God vs. Satan; Good vs. Evil; Saints vs. Sinners; believing that we need to know evil to appreciate good; Spirit vs. the physical body - all of it is dualistic. It presupposes that evil is an equal force and powerful enough to oppose God. It is all false. Evil is lesser good, not an equal force. The Devil is a cautionary tale - a created being who gave into selfishness instead of love or unselfishness. I believe dualism is inherent within humanity because it resulted from the Fall, but it must be overcome. Instead of running around pretending to know good from evil, we need to leave the job to God, who is Good and can therefore determine right from wrong. We were created to love, not judge.

Fair enough. I wasn't, strictly speaking, trying to be harsh toward you or toward anyone else. Most of my theology comes from the reading and contemplation of scripture, but also from listening to various teachers on the radio or television. Prior to receiving Christ by faith (that is trusting in His sacrifice and in His word and not in my own works or understanding) I'd read the scripture for years without arriving at anything resembling biblical faith. It is part of my testimony that He has "opened the eyes" of my understanding in giving me His Spirit as the Teacher and His presence within me. I believe that it is also His Spirit that confirms or denies those things which we hear coming from various teachers, but one thing that I am confident of is that we are not saved by our understanding, but by our faith, receiving His word. My point here is that our understanding changes, not only when saved, but grows with our sanctification. Jesus told His original disciples that He had more to teach them, but that there were things that they were not yet able to bear. I believe that this has been true of the church from the very beginning and that some things were not meant to be clearly seen by us until the time when it would be necessary and that we would be able to receive it.
To be honest, its hard for me to comprehend how someone could leave the "protestant" faith for Roman Catholicism as it seems that the doctrines of the reformation are a bit more sound than much of what I was taught as a youth. Most of the born again believers that I've met in the last 16 years, better than 50%, have been people who were raised as "Catholics" but were unable to return to that church once having believed. I also know a number of "Born again" believers still within that church, though I find that they often have problems reconciling what they hear in services with what they read in scripture. My purpose here, however, is not "Catholic bashing," but rather sharing my understanding of scripture for the purpose of the edification of the church, and the salvation of those who fear the Lord, but don't yet know Him. I'm just inclined to believe that this may include many professing Christians. I also firmly believe that self righteousness, that is in the sense of being confident in our own righteousness, is the one sin which generally keeps us from putting our trust in Him. It certainly was so for me, and it was a major point that Jesus made over and over again with respect to the Pharisees during His ministry prior to His resurrection. I can't make a judgment whether or not someone is saved, but I can certainly make a judgment as to whether or not someone's doctrine is consistent with the character and person of God as revealed in the scripture. I would hope that we were all striving for as much.
Again, with respect to dualism, when people are unable to see God as separate from His creation, dualism is a natural perception and this because His creation is subjected to futility, cycles of repetition, apparent conflict between "good and evil," and the certain knowledge that nothing we observe actually endures.

 

[aspen]

Thanks for your response. I do not think you are bashing Catholics or Catholic members and I have enjoyed reading your posts

 

[Selene]

If we are talking solely on the transgression of Adam, we find that he chose to eat of the fruit, he was not deceived or led into it. Paul tells us that Adam was not deceived. If he wasn't deceived, then he knew what he was doing. He decided to transgress the laws, thereby allowing him and his wife to have children and start the human race in a manner that would allow us to live a probationary period and to become like the Father and Son.

Isn't that what Satan told Eve? "You will not certainly die" said the serpent to the woman, "For God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be open and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5). Should we believe Satan that man's destiny is to become like God? There is only one God and in the end, there will still be only one God. We, on the other hand, are destined to be His children and heirs to His kingdom. We are called to be holy and perfect like God, but certainly not to take God's place in anything He is as King and Lord of all.

Adam and Eve were already made in the image and likeness of God, but that never meant that they are God, which brings us to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That tree was placed there to remind man of his place. Man is a creature made by God and subject under God. Man is God's creation and not the Creator who made all things in Heaven and on earth. In other words, it was God who made the rules, and man's place is to trust God and follow His rules regardless of how silly those rules may seem (such as don't touch or eat the fruit from THAT tree).

You are correct, Adam was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14), and that makes his sin even more serious. Eve was the one who was deceived and therefore, she can be saved through childbearing (1 Timothy 2:15). The devil knows this and today often attacks the women by allowing abortion and birth control.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Isn't that what Satan told Eve? "You will not certainly die" said the serpent to the woman, "For God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be open and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5). Should we believe Satan that man's destiny is to become like God? There is only one God and in the end, there will still be only one God. We, on the other hand, are destined to be His children and heirs to His kingdom. We are called to be holy and perfect like God, but certainly not to take God's place in anything He is as King and Lord of all.

Adam and Eve were already made in the image and likeness of God, but that never meant that they are God, which brings us to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That tree was placed there to remind man of his place. Man is a creature made by God and subject under God. Man is God's creation and not the Creator who made all things in Heaven and on earth. In other words, it was God who made the rules, and man's place is to trust God and follow His rules regardless of how silly those rules may seem (such as don't touch or eat the fruit from THAT tree).

You are correct, Adam was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14), and that makes his sin even more serious. Eve was the one who was deceived and therefore, she can be saved through childbearing (1 Timothy 2:15). The devil knows this and today often attacks the women by allowing abortion and birth control.

Sorry to butt in Selene, but I believe that it would be unjust of me to not make a comment in regard to your statement. I have no idea what Robertson's religion or faith is beyond the fact that he must profess to be Christian. If he is indeed Mormon, then I would have to say that his profession is questionable (unless he's received the gospel and been born again.) However, the book of Genesis clearly states that man was created in the image of God. Luke's genealogy of Jesus Christ even identifies Adam as a son of God, given that Adam was created by God's own "hands" and with His breath. The writings of the Apostle Paul tell us plainly that in bringing us to faith in Him, renewing our spirit, with His Holy Spirit, and our minds with His word, that He is actively renewing us in His own image, and specifically in the image of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Since He isn't changing our physical appearance to be like Christ's, we should understand that He is renewing our spirits in His image and in this respect to be like Him. This process is so complete that we are told that Jesus Christ, God Himself in the person of His Son, is unashamed to call us brothers (if we indeed have been renewed). The scripture also tells us that Eve was deceived, but Adam transgressed the commandment. He knew that he was disobeying God, but I don't think it was possible for him to understand the implications of his disobedience or that he was doing "evil" by disobeying God; he didn't possess the knowledge of good and evil. You may understand these things already, but perhaps Robertson or some other reader doesn't.

 

[Selene]

Sorry to butt in Selene, but I believe that it would be unjust of me to not make a comment in regard to your statement. I have no idea what Robertson's religion or faith is beyond the fact that he must profess to be Christian. If he is indeed Mormon, then I would have to say that his profession is questionable (unless he's received the gospel and been born again.) However, the book of Genesis clearly states that man was created in the image of God. Luke's genealogy of Jesus Christ even identifies Adam as a son of God, given that Adam was created by God's own "hands" and with His breath. The writings of the Apostle Paul tell us plainly that in bringing us to faith in Him, renewing our spirit, with His Holy Spirit, and our minds with His word, that He is actively renewing us in His own image, and specifically in the image of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Since He isn't changing our physical appearance to be like Christ's, we should understand that He is renewing our spirits in His image and in this respect to be like Him. This process is so complete that we are told that Jesus Christ, God Himself in the person of His Son, is unashamed to call us brothers (if we indeed have been renewed). The scripture also tells us that Eve was deceived, but Adam transgressed the commandment. He knew that he was disobeying God, but I don't think it was possible for him to understand the implications of his disobedience or that he was doing "evil" by disobeying God; he didn't possess the knowledge of good and evil. You may understand these things already, but perhaps Robertson or some other reader doesn't.

In Genesis 1, God said, "Let there be light," "Let there be this......" "Let there be that......" However, the language changed when it came to the creation of man. The language was changed to "Let US make man in our image and likeness" It was not "Let there be man....male and female." Among all creation, man was different. Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. That image and likeness was distorted when they sinned. As a result, they became separated from God and there was disharmony even between man and woman. This is how we see it:

Adam and Eve were first created pure without sin. Their purity is the image and likeness of God. Their purity is snow-white and shone like a light because there was no sin in them. When they finally committed their first sin, sin is like a mud.....like filth. This mud covered Adam and Eve that one cannot see the snow-white of their purity.

Then comes along Jesus who died on the cross. His blood washed away the sins of the world. Adam and Eve were now washed in the blood of Jesus, and His blood washed away the filthy sin that covered them. Now one can see the snow white underneath. Man has always been created in the image and likeness of God, but it's our sins that distorted and covered our image and likeness of God. Christ's death and resurrection restored that image and likeness of God. This is what we meant by "redemption." We have been redeemed by Christ through His death and resurrection. Christ did His job, now there is something left for us to do. We must do our job in constantly maintaining our close relationship with God.

 

[veteran]

After reading some of the replies on the topic of Adam and his free will, I just had to toss in some discussion on the much larger topic of God and His atributes. One of those atributes is His omnisence, His complete knowledge of absolutely everything that ever was, what is, and what will come to be.

God therefore knew before He started His Creation that He would create Adam and Eve, and that Eve would succumb to the serpent's suggestion and then would lead Adam into his own sin. Furthermore, it was a critical part of His purpose (Romans 8:28; Romans 9:11; Romans 9:17 and many more) that Adam and Eve fell from His grace when and where they did. He already knew they would fall by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but commit that sin before they could eat of the fruit of the tree of life. He did not in any way cause them to fall, but He did know that they would fall.

Everything that happens is a part of God's Purpose, and nothing can happen that is not part of His Purpose. Nothing, because He is in control of everything, and everything belongs to Him by right of His Creation.

Rank Stranger

No need to wonder if that's true, God's Word reveals it is. It was inevitable that Adam would sin. This present world set the stage for it, since Christ was ordained to die on the cross before the foundation of this world.

The part many here miss is when it was that the devil first sinned against God from the beginning.

I Jn 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
(KJV)


How did Christ's coming to die on the cross offer remission of sins unto Salvation? By defeating the devil and destroying his works, even the idea of 'death' which the devil has been given power of (Hebrews 2:14).

1 Pet 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(KJV)

How is it that Christ Jesus was "foreordained before the foundation of the world"? That's about His being ordained by The Father to be born in the flesh to die on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe on Him, all BEFORE the foundation of this world.

That means friends, even BEFORE Adam had sinned Christ had already been foreordained to die on the cross.


So all the little side-stories of men's traditions of some super-existence in God's Garden by Adam and Eve is nothing but wishful thinking. Christ had already been foreordained to destroy the works of the devil before the foundation of this world.

So doesn't that DIRECTLY POINT to some major event that happened back BEFORE the founding of this present world? YES!!!

Let me see, now just what event could that have been??? Hmmmm....???

Satan's rebellion against God in the world that then was.

 

[michaelvpardo]

In Genesis 1, God said, "Let there be light," "Let there be this......" "Let there be that......" However, the language changed when it came to the creation of man. The language was changed to "Let US make man in our image and likeness" It was not "Let there be man....male and female." Among all creation, man was different. Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. That image and likeness was distorted when they sinned. As a result, they became separated from God and there was disharmony even between man and woman. This is how we see it:

Adam and Eve were first created pure without sin. Their purity is the image and likeness of God. Their purity is snow-white and shone like a light because there was no sin in them. When they finally committed their first sin, sin is like a mud.....like filth. This mud covered Adam and Eve that one cannot see the snow-white of their purity.

Then comes along Jesus who died on the cross. His blood washed away the sins of the world. Adam and Eve were now washed in the blood of Jesus, and His blood washed away the filthy sin that covered them. Now one can see the snow white underneath. Man has always been created in the image and likeness of God, but it's our sins that distorted and covered our image and likeness of God. Christ's death and resurrection restored that image and likeness of God. This is what we meant by "redemption." We have been redeemed by Christ through His death and resurrection. Christ did His job, now there is something left for us to do. We must do our job in constantly maintaining our close relationship with God.

I wouldn't disagree with anything that you've said here, except that it really only applies to those who receive Jesus Christ by faith. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to redeem all mankind, even all creation, from the curse and consequence of Adam's sin, as well as that of our own sin, but He hasn't promised a "blanket" redemption to all mankind, rather the promise of salvation is to those who put their trust in Him. The promises of God in Christ Jesus are given in the form of a covenant, and more specifically in the form of a marriage covenant. God, for His part, sacrificed His Son for the propitiation of our sin, but what is our part in the covenant? What is our sacrifice? What can men offer to God that He doesn't already own? I want to answer "obedience," but I already know that my attempts at obedience will always be imperfect and flawed by that fleshly nature which remains with me. So what do I have to offer God? Another obvious answer is "love." He's commanded us to love Him and to love one another, no arguement there. But again, while God's love for me and for you is perfect, my love for Him and for you will never be perfect on this side of eternity, though I were to strive for it with my last breath. So what sacrifice can I make to God as my part in His covenant promise? I think that the only thing we flawed and imperfect creatures can offer God is "submission." Submission doesn't require perfection on our part, but rather a constant willingness to say "no" to ourselves, our own selfish desires, and to say "yes" to God. This may seem quite "slavish," but that is exactly the New Testament language used to describe our relationship to God as Christians. We are not only to submit to God, but He even calls us to mutual submission, to the extent that it serves His purposes in the body of Christ. Nothing goes more in opposition to our carnal nature, yet He gives His Spirit to those who make this covenant relationship with Him, and with Him, His resurrection power to new life. Submitting to His Spirit, is submitting to Him, and those led by the Spirit of God are more than slaves, more than conquerors, but sons of adoption, sons of the living God. The difference between us and Adam is that we now have the knowledge of "good and evil." We can recognize our sin for what it is, and we can recognize God for who He is. We can now choose good, because we know what it is, and reject evil even though we find it in ouselves. Choosing the good is choosing God, and in this we can "prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Amen.

 

[Selene]

I wouldn't disagree with anything that you've said here, except that it really only applies to those who receive Jesus Christ by faith. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to redeem all mankind, even all creation, from the curse and consequence of Adam's sin, as well as that of our own sin, but He hasn't promised a "blanket" redemption to all mankind, rather the promise of salvation is to those who put their trust in Him. The promises of God in Christ Jesus are given in the form of a covenant, and more specifically in the form of a marriage covenant. God, for His part, sacrificed His Son for the propitiation of our sin, but what is our part in the covenant? What is our sacrifice? What can men offer to God that He doesn't already own? I want to answer "obedience," but I already know that my attempts at obedience will always be imperfect and flawed by that fleshly nature which remains with me. So what do I have to offer God? Another obvious answer is "love." He's commanded us to love Him and to love one another, no arguement there. But again, while God's love for me and for you is perfect, my love for Him and for you will never be perfect on this side of eternity, though I were to strive for it with my last breath. So what sacrifice can I make to God as my part in His covenant promise? I think that the only thing we flawed and imperfect creatures can offer God is "submission." Submission doesn't require perfection on our part, but rather a constant willingness to say "no" to ourselves, our own selfish desires, and to say "yes" to God. This may seem quite "slavish," but that is exactly the New Testament language used to describe our relationship to God as Christians. We are not only to submit to God, but He even calls us to mutual submission, to the extent that it serves His purposes in the body of Christ. Nothing goes more in opposition to our carnal nature, yet He gives His Spirit to those who make this covenant relationship with Him, and with Him, His resurrection power to new life. Submitting to His Spirit, is submitting to Him, and those led by the Spirit of God are more than slaves, more than conquerors, but sons of adoption, sons of the living God. The difference between us and Adam is that we now have the knowledge of "good and evil." We can recognize our sin for what it is, and we can recognize God for who He is. We can now choose good, because we know what it is, and reject evil even though we find it in ouselves. Choosing the good is choosing God, and in this we can "prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Amen.

You are correct when you say that Christ did not promise a "blanket" redemption for all mankind. It is only for those who accept Jesus Christ. But God desires to save all men (See 1 Timothy 2:4). This is why Christ sent the Apostles to all nations so they could spread the good news in order that many others will come to know Christ. Those who chose to believe in Christ will receive salvation and those who do not believe will be condemned.

I also agree that the only thing we can offer God is our "yes." God will do the rest for us by working through us because it is only with God that all things are possible. We cannot do things on our own. It is only with God that all things are possible.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Selene,
No arguement to be found here, and that's always a good thing.

 

[Sargento]

Dan...

Just my opinion, but 'Yes' that's it.

Simply stated, God told A&E not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, or else they would die. The Serpent told Eve that it was okay to eat of the Tree, because they would not surely die. So there's the choice, no arm twisting, just a decision to be obedient to God or trust the serpent.. Its not that A&E wanted to die, that would be stupid, they just freely chose to believe the serpent and ignore God. They chose poorly.

I asked you if they wanted to die, you answered yes, but then you say that would be stupid...

Well, that describes well the theory of free-will about Adam and Eve... that would be stupid.

If they did not chose to die why did they? How are you free to choose if you don't get or even understand what you choose.
Free to believe??? What you believe is whats leads your choices, not the other way around... do you have the power to decide in what you believe in, or are you guided by what CONVINCES you to believe in it?



DAY...

What I think you are saying does not make any sense to me. Are you saying that everything is pre-arranged? What is the point of consciousness if we cannot use it to make choices? I see choice all over the Scriptures, in fact the whole point of Scripture is to allow us "informed consent" or "choice".
And as regards your Isaiah reference above, I do not see darkness as inherently evil, and where your text says "evil" I have seen texts use "strife" or other comparable terms that more directly relate to the preceding "peace". In any case there is a difference between the "evil" of the negative impact of natural processes (like a tornado), and moral evil. I think the Isaiah text is referring to "natural" evils.
It is the same as if you had a dog you let run free in the neighborhood and it bit someone. By letting the dog run free you created the environment in which a bite could take place, but you did not force the dog to bite.

Yes it's all predestined.... but I'm not saying we do not make choices.
We do make choices, but they are not free... just like a lion chooses meat over grass, but that's not a free choice, it's a choice driven by it's nature and knowledge.
It's not free, but obeys to what GOD made of him...

About the dog... ok, but if you are the creator of the dog and the reason why he still exists and do not stop him are you less responsible?
Even by human laws, if you can stop your dog from killing someone and you choose not to how are you considered Innocent or guilty?
But all it's GOD's... all is HIS creation and all owes it's existence to HIM so it is impossible that HE can be found "guilty" if HE decide to kill because HE cannot owe to no one so that HE might be in fault.


However the "natural" is your word, it's not there... and even if it was, GOD is saying that HE does it... whatever kind of evil you make it removing the true meaning of evil HE told us HE is the one behind it.
And who created and controls what we call nature?


And the good used to oppose in that same scripture? Is that a "natural" good too? It's just a good that "happens" and GOD is not responsible for it?
So what's the meaning of this passage then? Why is GOD speaking to us here? To tell us that things just happens naturally (like if HE didn't create and control nature) without being HIS decision?

He told us "There's no other, it's me, I do it all" so we understand "It's not me, it just happens naturally"??

 

[Dan57]

Dan...

I asked you if they wanted to die, you answered yes, but then you say that would be stupid... I actually wrote; "ts not that A&E wanted to die"

Well, that describes well the theory of free-will about Adam and Eve... that would be stupid.

If they did not chose to die why did they? How are you free to choose if you don't get or even understand what you choose.
Free to believe??? What you believe is whats leads your choices, not the other way around... do you have the power to decide in what you believe in, or are you guided by what CONVINCES you to believe in it?

God's omniscience/omnipotence doesn't mean that His plan accounts for all contingencies. As long as God is involved with His creation, the future is not set in stone. Does God know the future? Yes. Can God bring about trial and errors that may alter a persons choices? Yes. As long as free will exist, hearts can be swayed. Free-will is an act of love, and love is not something God created within us, love emanates and grows from within every individual and is demonstrated by our choices. Whether we believe or not is our free choice.

There are 1,522 "if's" and many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout scripture which are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees, and are sufficient proof that He changes His mind and His own dealings with men as they conform or refuse to conform to His will.

Several times in Scripture God Himself said of certain events that they 'did not come into his mind' (Jeremiah 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked; "it repented Him that He had made man and grieved Him at His heart" (Gen. 6:5-7). Other examples are how God chose Saul to be king, but later the Lord reserved King Saul as wicked because he turned away from God. Did God make a mistake or was Saul's disobedience yet unknown? And consider the trial of Abraham when he was about to sacrifice Isaac, God said; "Now I know that you fear God, seeing that you did not withhold your son".

There's nothing in the Bible saying God knows all acts of free moral agents, or that He has fixed decrees predestinating all thoughts and deeds of people given free will. While God has foreknowledge of some souls beforehand and predestinated them for a specific purpose, I don't believe most people's fate is predetermined by God. We are each an unknown work in progress. JMO