God Knew Adam and Eve Would Fall

[Rank Stranger]

After reading some of the replies on the topic of Adam and his free will, I just had to toss in some discussion on the much larger topic of God and His atributes. One of those atributes is His omnisence, His complete knowledge of absolutely everything that ever was, what is, and what will come to be.

God therefore knew before He started His Creation that He would create Adam and Eve, and that Eve would succumb to the serpent's suggestion and then would lead Adam into his own sin. Furthermore, it was a critical part of His purpose (Romans 8:28; Romans 9:11; Romans 9:17 and many more) that Adam and Eve fell from His grace when and where they did. He already knew they would fall by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but commit that sin before they could eat of the fruit of the tree of life. He did not in any way cause them to fall, but He did know that they would fall.

Everything that happens is a part of God's Purpose, and nothing can happen that is not part of His Purpose. Nothing, because He is in control of everything, and everything belongs to Him by right of His Creation.

Rank Stranger

 

[aspen]

if God led Adam into his sin, He is evil - which is not possible

 

[Angelina]

He did not in any way cause them to fall, but He did know that they would fall..

Indeed!, sin was already in the world on account of the fact that the serpent demonstrated a sin nature [cunning - subtly opposing Gods clear command].
I put it to you another way :huh: .... God knew that the serpent would attempt to manipulate Adam and Eve in the garden...so he prepared a plan beforehand to rid the world of sin through Christ's death on the cross and eternal life by faith in his son, our redeemer.

1 Peter 1:18-20
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

1 John 3:8
The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Shalom!!!

 

[clark thompson]

God did not cause the fall but gave them freewill event though their own choices would cause them to fall.

 

[Rank Stranger]

It is important to remember that God can do all things as long as they are within His purpose. He cannot do anything outside His purpose because that would compromise His perfect holyness.

He can create evil within His purpose, to serve His purpose, but such creation does not in any way make Him evil.

He knows who will come to Him, and who will turn away. He does not cause them to turn away, and because He does not respect persons He will not cause anyone to turn back to Him if they have turned away. They must do that themselves or face their own eternal destiny in the lake of fire.

God knows everything. Yes, He knows when the earthquake will strike or when the tornado will dip down from the skies. He does not cause those events to happen, but He does not prevent those events from happening because they are within His purpose.

Rank Stranger

 

[Sargento]

Hi Satranger...

After reading some of the replies on the topic of Adam and his free will, I just had to toss in some discussion on the much larger topic of God and His atributes. One of those atributes is His omnisence, His complete knowledge of absolutely everything that ever was, what is, and what will come to be.

God therefore knew before He started His Creation that He would create Adam and Eve, and that Eve would succumb to the serpent's suggestion and then would lead Adam into his own sin. Furthermore, it was a critical part of His purpose (Romans 8:28; Romans 9:11; Romans 9:17 and many more) that Adam and Eve fell from His grace when and where they did. He already knew they would fall by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but commit that sin before they could eat of the fruit of the tree of life. He did not in any way cause them to fall, but He did know that they would fall.

Everything that happens is a part of God's Purpose, and nothing can happen that is not part of His Purpose. Nothing, because He is in control of everything, and everything belongs to Him by right of His Creation.

Rank Stranger

Just one thing stranger:

He did not in any way cause them to fall,

Just by knowing what will happen if you do things that way, and doing it anyway you are making it happen.

It's like saying that you know that if you throw up a glass it will fall and break, and then throw it up and saying that you made nothing to make break it.

EVERYTHING GOD did resulted in their fall... it was HIS plan (like you said) so HE made it happen.
All happens according to HIS plan, nothing happens out of HIS plan... what exists is because HE made it exist, and what does not is because HE does not support it's existence...

 

[aspen]

sacrificing the Good character of God for His sovereignty is heresy. We are all defined by our nature. You have failed to explain how you can know God if He character is unstable.

 

[Sargento]

Heresy is sacrificing HIS sovereignty so that HIS goodness pleases you... is changing the all mighty GOD into corruption like if HE was a man or judge like one!

Unstable in your eyes... you search for a god smaller than a human even... because in your eyes you can change, but god can't.... you have the power to become good or bad, but HE does not...
In other words, you just called yourself unstable.

You think God is like a chart that you do "this" a HE does "that"... you do not admit you enslavement nor HIS freedom.
HE is not a machine nor a law, HE is ALIVE my friend.

I didn't fail to explain, you fail to understand for that same reason in 1 Co 2:14... we see differently.

 

[aspen]

So....your answer to my question 'how is it possible to know an unstable, unpredictable god?' Is that I cannot possibly understand because I am not a Christian? Is that like 'taking the fifth?' How convenient and sad.....

S: Heresy is sacrificing HIS sovereignty so that HIS goodness pleases you... is changing the all mighty GOD into corruption like if HE was a man or judge like one!

A: Once again, your relationship with God is fear-based. You sacrifice all aspects of God for His sovereignty. This mentality is what led to the election of Hitler, in Germany. The German people sacrificed everything for protection. What heresy are you referring to? How am I sacrificing God's sovereignty? Corruption is the same as sin - in my worldview, God cannot sin - according to your opinion, God can sin - how am I changing 'GOD into corruption?' Yep. I am judging God by the standard of His own Good nature - how dare you expect anything less from Him!

S: Unstable in your eyes...

A: Emotional stability is required to be predictable and therefore, knowable. If we could not know God, we could not believe in Him or trust Him or have faith in Him. If we were not able to trust God and His promises, all of the sinful, behavior of the people in the OT, which was based on their distrust of God would be justified! Indeed, how can you trust a God that is not faithful to His own character? If God is not trustworthy, we should be busy drinking and eating and making merry, because this is going to be as good as it gets - who knows if we are really saved? God might change His mind, right?? And, who knows, we could be saved and in Heaven one minute and damned the next, based on a godly whim.......

S: you search for a god smaller than a human even... because in your eyes you can change, but god can't.... you have the power to become good or bad, but HE does not...

A: You are terrified, without cause. Small? You mean like, petty? Prone to seeking revenge? Teaching His creation to accept a snake when we ask for a fish and pretending it is good? Why would God teach His lowly creation to be more moral than He is?

S: In other words, you just called yourself unstable.

A: Sinful, unstable, but vulnerable and practicing being faithful according to the sanctification I am receiving from the Holy Spirit.

S: You think God is like a chart that you do "this" a HE does "that"... you do not admit you enslavement nor HIS freedom. HE is not a machine nor a law, HE is ALIVE my friend.

A: Hold on, aren't you the guy that claims a killer doesn't have to kill anyone to be a killer - that he was created a killer and that is what defines Him? So why are you denying that God is Good and therefore incapable of being anything less than what He is?

God's actions have nothing to do with me and I have never claimed otherwise.

Enslavement? Aren't you forgetting that Jesus called us friends? John 15:15

Yes. God is alive - He is also perfect so He is unchanging. Change is a quality of imperfection - movement towards perfection or decay.

S: I didn't fail to explain, you fail to understand for that same reason in 1 Co 2:14... we see differently.

A: I am not sure you can see past your own fear in order to see what my perspective actually is.

Finally, declaring that God can sin because He can do anything is just like arguing that God can create a rock bigger than He can lift - it says more about the limits of human reasoning than God. We cannot fully understand God's omnipotence - so we shouldn't try to defend it at the expense of His mercy and grace and love. The only thing worse than sitting around trying to figure out how God can create a rock bigger than He can lift is wondering if and when He is going to crush us with it.

 

[michaelvpardo]

My two cents:
The original post is absolutely correct and scripture supports it: Christ is called the lamb that was slain "from the foundation of the world." Jesus's sacrifice is not an afterthought. Lucifer's fall wasn't a surprise. In allowing choice, God allowed for the possibility of "evil," knowing what would happen. God's purpose was never simply to create a happy sinless environment for us, but to create us in His own image. He has choice, so we have choice. The problem with choice is that any choice we make that is not the same as God's choice, is not good, by definition. Choice is not the only aspect of what the image of God is. Rather than try to describe the image of God in a vacuum, all we need to do is examine who Jesus is in order to understand what (or who) the image of God is. How would God teach us the qualities of justice and faith, mercy and love, longsuffering and patience, and every good quality that describes His character, without allowing the demonstration of the opposite qualities, or "evil?"
When you teach an infant to walk, you eventually have to let go, even knowing that standing and walking are also going to lead to stumbles and falls. Are you evil for "letting go?"
We tend to make judgments about God based upon our temporal experience and our experience may even be horrendous, but the lives we live are like a "vapour" in the context of the history of this world, and the entire age of this world is like a drop of water in the sea called eternity. Those things which we experience in this life are significant to us now, but in the scheme of God's plan are like a bump in the road. Life is a test of sorts, a trial by fire if you will, but the test isn't so God will know what we are about, but so that we will know what He is all about. Our wrong choices demonstrate the goodness of His perfect will and the evil of our rebellion against it. His forgiveness and mercy demonstrate His grace. His sacrifice demonstrates His love.
It's not clear from scripture, but it's unlikely that Adam and Eve truly understood what death is, beyond it being something that isn't good; They didn't have the understanding or knowledge of good and evil, until they broke the commandment. God allowed it, and ultimately for our good and for His glory, so that we might be brought to maturity in His image, and not remain infants in the garden. Some of us would rather not grow up, but we exist to satisfy the purpose of our creator, and we can never really make an accurate judgment of Him without having His eternal perspective. Since we can't have His perspective our judgments are commonly drawn from our emotion and sense of "what is right." His judgments are, however, entirely righteous, and the fact that He chooses to save a people for Himself, made in His own image, is entirely an act of His grace.

 

[aspen]

you are describing dualism, michael.

 

[michaelvpardo]

you are describing dualism, michael.

Probably, but that's probably because creation as we experience it is dualistic. Good and evil are opposing qualities, as are light and dark, masculine and feminine, etc. People like the Chinese folks who came up with the "religion" of Taoism, did so on the basis of the observation of a fallen world. That doesn't mean that God is dualistic, because God is not a part of creation. The Tao of Taoism, is described in english terminology as a "way" which can't be known, but only experienced. This is because Taoists had no concept of a god with "personhood," and viewed creation as being god in an impersonal sense. They did recognize the fact that God (as the Tao) can't be known or described through His creation, but observed in it, and without a special revelation of God, by His own choice, this is true enough. The hindu and bhuddist concept of kharma is another expression of the spiritual law of sowing and reaping, based upon the observation of the law at work in the world, but without special revelation they couldn't possibly understand that justice could be executed and settled by God Himself, and through the person of His Son. The scriptures describe God as "light" or the source of "light" and in Him "there is no shadow of turning." The implication of that verse in addition to the unchanging character of God, is that His creation does change or does possess "the shadow of turning" or inconstancy of nature. The Yin and Yang symbol popular with martial artists is based upon the concept of cyclical change, and common to eastern philosophies. Why is it common? Because it is observable, even at the level of quantum physics, but again the observation remains that of a fallen world. Why do you think that the new Jerusalem is described as having no night and no luminaries, and with God Himself the source of light? At that point creation is no longer fallen and given over to dualism. There is no more cycle of life, no more evil in the heavenly places to oppose God and that which is good, no more seasons of change, no more decay or corruption, there will only be God and those whom He has perfected in His image, living forever in the light of His goodness. What's dualistic about that?

 

[day]

It is important to remember that God can do all things as long as they are within His purpose. He cannot do anything outside His purpose because that would compromise His perfect holyness.

He can create evil within His purpose, to serve His purpose, but such creation does not in any way make Him evil.

He knows who will come to Him, and who will turn away. He does not cause them to turn away, and because He does not respect persons He will not cause anyone to turn back to Him if they have turned away. They must do that themselves or face their own eternal destiny in the lake of fire.

God knows everything. Yes, He knows when the earthquake will strike or when the tornado will dip down from the skies. He does not cause those events to happen, but He does not prevent those events from happening because they are within His purpose.

Rank Stranger

God does not create evil. He does create the the environment (free will) in which it can exist. He permits evil for a time because he knows he can bring something good out of it. In Genesis Joseph told his brothers that what they intended for evil (selling him into slavery), God used for good (saving Egypt from famine). The same goes for Satan in Eden, what Satan intended for evil, God has used to strengthen our characters in His image. He did not need evil to accomplish it, nor did evil force a change in his original purpose in creating us.

 

[aspen]

but michael, dualism plays no role at all within christianity. it is a false perception resulting from the Fall and we rightfully codemned by the Early Church. Or tendency towards sin is what makes it possible to misuse creation, which is evil - why would God misuse creation? If He did created evil He would also be sinful - which is impossible

 

[Sargento]

Aspen...

So....your answer to my question 'how is it possible to know an unstable, unpredictable god?' Is that I cannot possibly understand because I am not a Christian? Is that like 'taking the fifth?' How convenient and sad.....

S: Heresy is sacrificing HIS sovereignty so that HIS goodness pleases you... is changing the all mighty GOD into corruption like if HE was a man or judge like one!

A: Once again, your relationship with God is fear-based. You sacrifice all aspects of God for His sovereignty. This mentality is what led to the election of Hitler, in Germany. The German people sacrificed everything for protection. What heresy are you referring to? How am I sacrificing God's sovereignty? Corruption is the same as sin - in my worldview, God cannot sin - according to your opinion, God can sin - how am I changing 'GOD into corruption?' Yep. I am judging God by the standard of His own Good nature - how dare you expect anything less from Him!

S: Unstable in your eyes...

A: Emotional stability is required to be predictable and therefore, knowable. If we could not know God, we could not believe in Him or trust Him or have faith in Him. If we were not able to trust God and His promises, all of the sinful, behavior of the people in the OT, which was based on their distrust of God would be justified! Indeed, how can you trust a God that is not faithful to His own character? If God is not trustworthy, we should be busy drinking and eating and making merry, because this is going to be as good as it gets - who knows if we are really saved? God might change His mind, right?? And, who knows, we could be saved and in Heaven one minute and damned the next, based on a godly whim.......

S: you search for a god smaller than a human even... because in your eyes you can change, but god can't.... you have the power to become good or bad, but HE does not...

A: You are terrified, without cause. Small? You mean like, petty? Prone to seeking revenge? Teaching His creation to accept a snake when we ask for a fish and pretending it is good? Why would God teach His lowly creation to be more moral than He is?

S: In other words, you just called yourself unstable.

A: Sinful, unstable, but vulnerable and practicing being faithful according to the sanctification I am receiving from the Holy Spirit.

S: You think God is like a chart that you do "this" a HE does "that"... you do not admit you enslavement nor HIS freedom. HE is not a machine nor a law, HE is ALIVE my friend.

A: Hold on, aren't you the guy that claims a killer doesn't have to kill anyone to be a killer - that he was created a killer and that is what defines Him? So why are you denying that God is Good and therefore incapable of being anything less than what He is?

God's actions have nothing to do with me and I have never claimed otherwise.

Enslavement? Aren't you forgetting that Jesus called us friends? John 15:15

Yes. God is alive - He is also perfect so He is unchanging. Change is a quality of imperfection - movement towards perfection or decay.

S: I didn't fail to explain, you fail to understand for that same reason in 1 Co 2:14... we see differently.

A: I am not sure you can see past your own fear in order to see what my perspective actually is.

Finally, declaring that God can sin because He can do anything is just like arguing that God can create a rock bigger than He can lift - it says more about the limits of human reasoning than God. We cannot fully understand God's omnipotence - so we shouldn't try to defend it at the expense of His mercy and grace and love. The only thing worse than sitting around trying to figure out how God can create a rock bigger than He can lift is wondering if and when He is going to crush us with it.

How convenient? Didn't Christ answered the same to the Jews... even in this you can't believe? Of course not, you think you have free will.

What more can I tell you Aspen? You don't believe anything, even if I show it to you by the bible like I've already done in many ways.

I have shown you all I said by the bible, you just don't believe because it doesn't make sense to you... I have shown you what should be your joy, and instead you refuse all.

All you're asking I've answered more than once, but you still make questions like it's the first time we're talking... GOD's goodness is not man's goodness and HIS justice and righteousness
are not ours, there's where you always fail because after all this you continue to judge HIM as a man.... when you understand this I'll continue, because what I should have shown you I already did, you just didn't believe it, and for that I can't do nothing else.

DAY...

God does not create evil. He does create the the environment (free will) in which it can exist. He permits evil for a time because he knows he can bring something good out of it. In Genesis Joseph told his brothers that what they intended for evil (selling him into slavery), God used for good (saving Egypt from famine). The same goes for Satan in Eden, what Satan intended for evil, God has used to strengthen our characters in His image. He did not need evil to accomplish it, nor did evil force a change in his original purpose in creating us.

Hi Day, well, I guess you know Isaiah ...

I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else, {there is} no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that {there is} none beside me. I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! {Let} the potsherd {strive} with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Woe unto him that saith unto {his} father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, {even} my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaías 45:5-12

Tell why is this wrong?
Nowhere in the Bible HE says man has free will but the opposite its all over the bible, still everyone preaches free will... in many places HE shows and says directly that HE creates evil, still every one says "HE does not create evil". Why Day?
Let me hear your version too of why this is wrong...

 

[michaelvpardo]

but michael, dualism plays no role at all within christianity. it is a false perception resulting from the Fall and we rightfully codemned by the Early Church. Or tendency towards sin is what makes it possible to misuse creation, which is evil - why would God misuse creation? If He did created evil He would also be sinful - which is impossible

Dualism is a false perception of spiritual reality when applied to the person of God, but it isn't a false perception of His creation if it's observable. Are you familiar with Newtonian physics? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That is dualism created by God to make the physical universe work. Christianity can't be divorced from physical reality. The church erred in sanctioning men like Galileo who sought to understand causality in the physical world. The religions that included cyclical change did so based on the observation of real cyclical change created by God, the first of which is found in chapter 1 of the book of Genesis:
"4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day." (this is dualism created by God as well)
The hindu and bhuddists drew wrong conclusions when applying the cyclical nature of the universe to the human soul, but they needed a way to understand the apparent lack of justice when evil went unpunished and good went unrewarded. Again, without special revelation how could a person reconcile apparent injustice to the concept of a good or loving godhead. Satan and His demons are always prepared to reinforce the error of men, even with the oldest lie in the book:
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:4-5
So the hindu and bhuddist believe that you can achieve "god-hood" through "works" and cycles of existence, or in the case of bhuddism, through sudden "enlightenment."
If you insist in excluding dualism from Christianity, you effectively exclude God from Christianity, who created dualism even before the fall of man. But I understand the need to label things which aren't clear to you so that you may dismiss them as heresy or error and thereby remain comfortable with your present understanding. This is a common phenomenon when world view is challenged. The church fathers had no knowledge of newtonian mechanics, or celestial mechanics, or particle physics, or DNA pairing, etc., etc., etc., and it seems that they weren't always that strong in biblical theology as well. I think that I'll stick with the teaching of Jesus, the Apostles, and the Holy Spirit, thank you.
By the way, it is impossible for God to misuse creation, because it belongs to Him and he can do with it as He pleases. Did He misuse creation with the flood? Do you really think He went, "Oops, I better try again with Noah and his family?" If that's your understanding of God, I think that you just might be missing something.
I read a newspaper article some years ago, about a tornado that hit some town down south somewhere, possibly Texas. There were a number of deaths including that of young children.The thing which caught my attention was that a single young infant, still a baby actually, was carried off by the wind, but found safe and unharmed nestled in the branches of a tree. That seemed a bit miraculous to me. Surely the hand of God was in it. Now was God evil for allowing some to die, but this one baby to live? I would never say so, they all belong to Him. Part of living by faith, is accepting that God will always do what is right and good, inspite of the "evil" things that we observe. Genuine faith is not built upon experience, nor upon our own understanding, but upon hearing the word of God, that is, receiving it, believing it, and trusting in what it says, as indeed coming from One who is completely trust worthy. Amen.
I was in a discussion once at a Sunday morning men's bible study where the topic came up about the disposition of children in the event of a premature death. We talked about an age of accountability and the fact that young children don't generally have the intellectual capacity to understand death, savation, sin, and such concepts. The Bible doesn't say much specifically about the topic (though there is a comment by King David about being reunited with his first child by Bath Sheba, after the infant's death). My only arguement was that the Jesus I know doesn't throw babies into hell, (true enough.) My friend made the final comment that he agreed with me, but that God would remain "Just," even if He did cast them into hell, which from the legal perspective is true. (Babies are born with a sin nature, and God does nothing which is unjust.) The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Hmmm, that seems a bit dualistic too.

 

[Robertson]

if God led Adam into his sin, He is evil - which is not possible

If we are talking solely on the transgression of Adam, we find that he chose to eat of the fruit, he was not deceived or led into it. Paul tells us that Adam was not deceived. If he wasn't deceived, then he knew what he was doing. He decided to transgress the laws, thereby allowing him and his wife to have children and start the human race in a manner that would allow us to live a probationary period and to become like the Father and Son.

 

[Sargento]

Adam knew what he was doing?

Then, Adam wanted to die? He wanted to be cursed himself and all the creation? If he knew what was he doing that's the conclusion...
Is that it?

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Coríntios 11:3

 

[Dan57]

Then, Adam wanted to die? He wanted to be cursed himself and all the creation? If he knew what was he doing that's the conclusion...
Is that it?

Just my opinion, but 'Yes' that's it.

Simply stated, God told A&E not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, or else they would die. The Serpent told Eve that it was okay to eat of the Tree, because they would not surely die. So there's the choice, no arm twisting, just a decision to be obedient to God or trust the serpent.. Its not that A&E wanted to die, that would be stupid, they just freely chose to believe the serpent and ignore God. They chose poorly.

 

[aspen]

If we are talking solely on the transgression of Adam, we find that he chose to eat of the fruit, he was not deceived or led into it. Paul tells us that Adam was not deceived. If he wasn't deceived, then he knew what he was doing. He decided to transgress the laws, thereby allowing him and his wife to have children and start the human race in a manner that would allow us to live a probationary period and to become like the Father and Son.

Perfect Mormon doctrine, Robertson and terrible understanding of orthodox Christianity.