"GOD WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME"

[Jack]

If God forsook Jesus, the most righteous human to ever live, then none of us have any hope.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Colossians 1:15-17, if by "eternal" one means "existing before the beginning of time and existing beyond its end".

According to Colossians Jesus is the "image" of the one who created him, but it is said that we are too....does that make us all God?

15 Who (the "dear Son" from verse 13) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

"The firstborn of every creature" is saying that he was the first of many such "creatures". A creature is a "creation".

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Not sure what translation you are using there but here are those verses in the ESV....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

So it is clear from these verses that Jesus was created before anything else. There was just him, as "firstborn", and his Father. No one knows where they existed. No one knows if heaven has always existed.....the Bible simply does not say.

All things then came "through" the agency of the son....."all things were created through him and for him". The words "through" and "for" are the important ones here. If you do something "through" someone else, that person is your agent. If you do something "for" someone, you aren't doing it for yourself, but for someone else. God is the one who gave us our sense of logic.....the trinity is not only unexplainable ...it is totally illogical.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It sure appears that way as many deny Jesus is God (YHWH ). And I do not mean oneness/modalism heresy either that some espouse. Jesus was/is fully God/fully man.

The Bible itself denies that Jesus is God....

Where does it ever say that Jesus was a god/man?
If Jesus was God, then as an immortal, he could not die. If Christ did not really die then we are unforgiven and still lost in our sins.

Why does Jesus have to be God to pay the redemption price for the debt Adam sold us all into? All he had to be was a sinless human.
His God sent his son to offer his life for ours.

There is only "one true God" as Jesus said....(John 17:3)
Non one is denying Jesus' "divinity"...what we question is his "deity"....being equal with God. (Exodus 20:3)

 

[Lambano]

Not sure what translation you are using

NASB.

All things then came "through" the agency of the son....."all things were created through him and for him".

Ahh, but here's the point: The verse ascribes to Jesus the act of Creation that in Judaism is understood to have been done by God and God alone. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:3)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ahh, but here's the point: The verse ascribes to Jesus the act of Creation that in Judaism is understood to have been done by God and God alone. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:3)

Actually, creation came "through" the son, not from him. There is only one Creator.....and it isn't Jesus.
The Jews are not a good source when investigating things pertaining to Jesus

....but at least they never believed that their Messiah would be God incarnate.

Proverbs 8:22, 30-31 gives us a clue....this is said to be the personification of wisdom....
“The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. . . . .
I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him.
31 I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race." (NASB)

In fashioning creation, the pre-human Jesus was intimately acquainted with all of it....especially human kind.
The apostle Paul wrote....1 Corinthians 1:24...
"However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God."
Jesus is said to be "the wisdom of God".

 

[Lambano]

Proverbs 8:22, 30-31 gives us a clue....this is said to be the personification of wisdom....
“The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. . . . .
I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him.
31 I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race." (NASB)

In fashioning creation, the pre-human Jesus was intimately acquainted with all of it....especially human kind.
The apostle Paul wrote....1 Corinthians 1:24...
"However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God."
Jesus is said to be "the wisdom of God".

A Hellenistic Jew and contemporary of John and Jesus, Philo of Alexandria, equated the Wisdom of Proverbs 8:22-31 with Heraclitus's Λόγος ("Logos"), the creative and organizing principle behind the universe. It's possible that John knew of this Wisdom tradition among his people.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

"God why have you abandoned me"

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

It seems one has to apply some serious mental gymnastics or ignore this fact to be certain that Jesus is God

Because it was not just a charade. He died an excruciatingly horrible death in flesh. He didn’t just pretend to be a human being, He actually BECAME one. And when what He did for you became more pain than a human body can take, He cried out to God, who is Spirit, in his need of release from the pain the same way we do when we experience severe and mortal pain and injury. And you stand there mocking and saying, if He is God, let Him come down off the cross! You have made me weep and I cannot make the tears stop. You have destroyed me with your words and all I can hear Him saying in response to you, and as your Savior and Mediator is, forgive Rei, he doesn’t know what he is doing. Oh will I ever stop weeping again? You have destroyed me and it’s too much. I can’t see to type anymore.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I know of no other way to help you than to turn from you and allow you to be turned over to satan for the sifting of your flesh so your spirit will be saved. I want to plead with you more but cannot.

 

[Aunty Jane]

A Hellenistic Jew and contemporary of John and Jesus, Philo of Alexandria, equated the Wisdom of Proverbs 8:22-31 with Heraclitus's Λόγος ("Logos"), the creative and organizing principle behind the universe. It's possible that John knew of this Wisdom tradition among his people.

The thing that undid a lot of God’s worshippers in both ancient and modern times was following the ideas and philosophies of men rather than sticking to God’s word and following his explicit instructions to avoid going “beyond what is written”. (1 Corinthians 4:6)

Regardless of what John was exposed to by way of human tradition, (something Jesus warned about. Matthew 15:8-9) what he recorded in his writings was “inspired by God” and hence devoid of human ideas. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The human ideas that became traditions were superimposed on the scriptures, not the other way around. So it was not God’s word that was interfered with, but the interpretation put upon it by those who were deceived by the devil....the sower of those “weeds”.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Irony is the word that comes to mind here...

 

[quietthinker]

The thing that undid a lot of God’s worshippers in both ancient and modern times was following the ideas and philosophies of men rather than sticking to God’s word and following his explicit instructions to avoid going “beyond what is written”. (1 Corinthians 4:6)

Regardless of what John was exposed to by way of human tradition, (something Jesus warned about. Matthew 15:8-9) what he recorded in his writings was “inspired by God” and hence devoid of human ideas. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The human ideas that became traditions were superimposed on the scriptures, not the other way around. So it was not God’s word that was interfered with, but the interpretation put upon it by those who were deceived by the devil....the sower of those “weeds”.

Jesus is God's word. Any printed matter whether it be the bible or other that does not line up with God's revelation of himself in Jesus does not qualify as God's word.

This becomes obvious when we read Jesus saying things like 'you have heard said .....but I say unto you'. The 'but' trumps what they had heard......and to what is this referenced? ...the old testament writings!

Does this disqualify the OT? no it doesn't; it highlights the greater truth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Irony is the word that comes to mind here...

Yes....but who is speaking truth and who is swayed by human ideas? That is the question.
Satan doesn’t have to come down hard.....he can sway people with just a simple idea, a lie cleverly spun.....

 

[quietthinker]

Yes....but who is speaking truth and who is swayed by human ideas? That is the question.
Satan doesn’t have to come down hard.....he can sway people with just a simple idea, a lie cleverly spun.....

and you feel you are exempt?

 

[EloyCraft]

The substance of Divine Being is self sustained existence that always was,is, and will be. Only Divine Nature IS that. Three divine person's are being God.