"GOD WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME"

[Cristo Rei]

"God why have you abandoned me"

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

It seems one has to apply some serious mental gymnastics or ignore this fact to be certain that Jesus is God

 

[APAK]

"God why have you abandoned me"

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

It seems one has to apply some serious mental gymnastics or ignore this fact to be certain that Jesus is God

The lame answer you might get from even a Trinitarian scholar is twofold:

1. It is part of the mystery of the Trinity.
2. To fulfill the prophecy of the psalm.

BL: They cannot have any real truthful answer because they will never admit Jesus is not God. If they ever did, the fallout and pandemonium would be on a global scale.

 

[BarneyFife]

It's good to see that our arguments have advanced to the level of what amounts to "You have to be mentally challenged not to base your beliefs on my proof text(s)."

 

[Enoch111]

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Jesus did not accuse Himself at all. And it was not a accusation but a cry of anguish to the Father. Jesus knew full well why the Father forsook Him for three dark hours while He paid the full penalty for the sins of the world. But He cried out in extreme agony. And unless Jesus Himself was God, He could not have paid that penalty.

 

[Brakelite]

The lame answer you might get from even a Trinitarian scholar is twofold:

1. It is part of the mystery of the Trinity.
2. To fulfill the prophecy of the psalm.

BL: They cannot have any real truthful answer because they will never admit Jesus is not God. If they ever did, the fallout and pandemonium would be on a global scale.

So that's offensive to be honest, particularly in light of the fact that neither you nor Cristo have explained why the Father abandoned His Son. Have neither of you thought this through? Have you considered what Jesus actually went through before coming up with this lame excuse for Christian apologetics?
First, the user of the word 'abandon' is wrong. Never did the Father abandon His Son. No more than He abandons us.
Second, the Father had to turn away and remove His presence from His Son in order for there to be a complete propitiation for sin. The death Jesus went through had to be full, complete, without hope, and without God. The same death we all will have to go through of we reject the sacrifice made for us. The fact that Jesus gave up His own natural immortality for you, risking everything, should give us all pause for serious contemplation on the actual cost and the price paid for our redemption.

 

[APAK]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Jesus did not accuse Himself at all. And it was not a accusation but a cry of anguish to the Father. Jesus knew full well why the Father forsook Him for three dark hours while He paid the full penalty for the sins of the world. But He cried out in extreme agony. And unless Jesus Himself was God, He could not have paid that penalty.

So you are then admitting that God is the Father of Yahshua. Or are you going to extend the conversion into twilight zone and say that God the Son was in the hands of God the Father and shared different roles at this particular moment in time similar (Modalists believe in one person in 3 states not 3 persons in 3 states) to what Modalists would believe. And if this is the case, what is God the Holy Spirit doing at this point in time? Waiting to place 'himself' in God the Son for the process of resurrection?

 

[APAK]

So that's offensive to be honest, particularly in light of the fact that neither you nor Cristo have explained why the Father abandoned His Son. Have neither of you thought this through? Have you considered what Jesus actually went through before coming up with this lame excuse for Christian apologetics?
First, the user of the word 'abandon' is wrong. Never did the Father abandon His Son. No more than He abandons us.
Second, the Father had to turn away and remove His presence from His Son in order for there to be a complete propitiation for sin. The death Jesus went through had to be full, complete, without hope, and without God. The same death we all will have to go through of we reject the sacrifice made for us. The fact that Jesus gave up His own natural immortality for you, risking everything, should give us all pause for serious contemplation on the actual cost and the price paid for our redemption.

Ditto to you as in my post #6

 

[Dropship]

When I was a small kid of about 4 my mother took me to the dentist and left me with them in their surgery while she sat in the waiting room.
When I saw them coming at me with a scary-looking gas mask to place over my face I was terrified and screamed "MAAAAAM!" because I thought she'd abandoned me, even though I knew deep down she hadn't.

 

[Lambano]

"God why have you abandoned me"

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

It seems one has to apply some serious mental gymnastics or ignore this fact to be certain that Jesus is God

Oh, I don't see the problem. The classic definition of the Trinity is that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate Persons but sharing same essence, whatever that means. Personhood is relational; the Father and the Son relate to each other as different persons, and in His human form, Jesus related to His Father as "God"; see John 20:17. So, of course one person could abandon the other.

Where I have to do mental gymnastics is in the "sharing the same essence" part above, and since personhood is relational, how do I relate to 3 separate persons who are essentially "God" without breaking the central tenant of Monotheism?

 

[APAK]

When I was a small kid of about 4 my mother took me to the dentist and left me with them in their surgery while she sat in the waiting room.
When I saw them coming at me with a scary-looking gas mask to place over my face I was terrified and screamed "MAAAAAM!" because I thought she'd abandoned me, even though I knew deep down she hadn't.

Well actually in this case God, his Father did remove his spirit from his Son because God cannot die, and staying within his human Son would keep him alive for an extended period of time, and as his body could not be sustained forever. He had no choice but to abandon him until his (holy) spirit would return to resurrect him back to life in a new body suited for heaven. Yes it was truly agony for him when his Father's spirit departed, indeed. It had to be done, to ensure Yahshua was truly dead for a time, to fulfill scripture and complete the sacrificial act for our salvation.

 

[APAK]

Oh, I don't see the problem. The classic definition of the Trinity is that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate Persons but sharing same essence, whatever that means. Personhood is relational; the Father and the Son relate to each other as different persons, and in His human form, Jesus related to His Father as "God"; see John 20:17. So, of course one person could abandon the other.

Where I have to do mental gymnastics is in the "sharing the same essence" part above, and how do I relate to 3 separate persons who are essentially "God" without breaking the central tenant of Monotheism.

I like your last statement a lot...on target! Trinitarianism is not genuine monotheism at all.

 

[BarneyFife]

Where I have to do mental gymnastics is in the "sharing the same essence" part above, and since personhood is relational, how do I relate to 3 separate persons who are essentially "God" without breaking the central tenant of Monotheism?

Simply trust the Scripture that we cannot by searching find out God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

unless Jesus Himself was God, He could not have paid that penalty.

Where do you get that idea? The redeemer had to have the exact payment necessary to free a debtor. God's law was "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life"....so the life offered had to be an equivalent of the life lost.

What was the debt? The loss of endless, sinless, life. In disobeying the direct command of God and stealing something that belonged exclusively to their Sovereign, the first humans lost what God had given them, not only for themselves but also for all their children.

Since sinless mortal life was lost, only a sinless mortal life could redeem them. Jesus came from heaven as a sinless mortal human to offer his life in exchange for Adam's. (Matthew 20:28)
This is why he is called "the last Adam" because he paid the debt that the first Adam left for his children. (1 Corinthians 15:45)

God was in no position to offer his life because he is an immortal and cannot die. If Jesus was God, then he too would have been immortal and his death would have to have been faked. If Jesus did not really die, the ransom (redemption price) was not paid, and we are all still lost in our sins.

Since there is no way for the Universal Sovereign to become a mortal human, and die....Jesus, because he was not God, but "God's holy servant", (Acts 4:27) could offer to become a human being and offer his life for Adam's, thereby paying the debt and releasing the children of the debtor....us.

If God had come in the flesh, the overpayment would have been ridiculous.....like a hundred billion cans of bug spray to kill one mosquito.
Jesus did not have to be God....all he had to be was sinless.
Beliefs based on assumptions don't lead to the truth...they just muddy the waters so that the truth is obscured and people remain confused...

If God had not "forsaken", or "abandoned" his son to allow the process of death to be finalized, Jesus could not have died.
His death is what paid our way out of the slavery our father Adam caused for us.

 

[Cristo Rei]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Jesus did not accuse Himself at all. And it was not a accusation but a cry of anguish to the Father. Jesus knew full well why the Father forsook Him for three dark hours while He paid the full penalty for the sins of the world. But He cried out in extreme agony. And unless Jesus Himself was God, He could not have paid that penalty.

That makes no sense at all...
So was Jesus speaking to himself or to God?

 

[Cristo Rei]

Oh, I don't see the problem. The classic definition of the Trinity is that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate Persons but sharing same essence, whatever that means. Personhood is relational; the Father and the Son relate to each other as different persons, and in His human form, Jesus related to His Father as "God"; see John 20:17. So, of course one person could abandon the other.

Where I have to do mental gymnastics is in the "sharing the same essence" part above, and since personhood is relational, how do I relate to 3 separate persons who are essentially "God" without breaking the central tenant of Monotheism?

I said for people that are certain that Jesus is God.
Your answer is the same as what I think.
There is Jesus the Son and God the father so we appear to be in agreement there

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus came from heaven as a sinless mortal human to offer his life in exchange for Adam's.

Now that is simply incredible. Even the Muslims don't believe this rubbish. "Jesus came from Heaven as a sinless mortal human". Except that that is simply your fantasy.

The Bible says that God the Word took human form in order to die for our sins. God the Word is Jesus, the second person on the Godhead. He was fully God and fully sinless Man. Otherwise He could not possibly have paid for the sins of the whole world.

JOHN 1: THE LAMB OF GOD WAS IN FACT GOD THE WORD (JESUS)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God...
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth...
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him...
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

What does this mean "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us"? Does it not mean in plain English that God took human form? And why did He take human form? The answer is in verse 29 -- so that He could take away the sin of the world on the cross. So since you are denying this, you have made God a liar.

 

[Enoch111]

That makes no sense at all...
So was Jesus speaking to himself or to God?

Jesus was speaking to God the Father. Jesus is God the Son. So it makes perfect sense to those who accept the Bible fact of the Trinity, which includes God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cristo Rei]

No one really addressing my question in the op.

If Jesus is God then why does he talk to himself and pray to himself often?

 

[Cristo Rei]

Jesus was speaking to God the Father. Jesus is God the Son. So it makes perfect sense to those who accept the Bible fact of the Trinity, which includes God the Holy Spirit.

So there are 2 Gods?
And where does this term "trinity" appear in the Bible?

 

[Enoch111]

So there are 2 Gods? And where does this term "trinity" appear in the Bible?

There is one God eternally existent in three persons (1 John 5:7 KJB). And while the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, the truth of the trinity is found in one of the key verses of Scripture (Matthew 28:19): Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: While "name" is singular, there are three divine persons with the same name -- the name of God.