"GOD WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME"

[Brakelite]

"Essence" (Greek ὁμοούσιος, "homoousious", "of the same essence"), I put out there for everybody's input. Is it what they're made of, or their nature, or what they are... ?

And that my friend is the million dollar question. A question that has baffled the best scholarly intelligent minds for 1700 years. And one that I don't think anyone here is going to clear up either. The strange thing about that is that we demand everyone else give an adequate explanation for it, which in connection to the trinity is impossible, and when they can't, we somehow use their ignorance as validation for our own superiority. You can't explain it, then it must be false. One might as well claim, you can't explain the nature of God, therefore there must not be any God.

 

[Brakelite]

No, it doesn't. This is the problem with these kinds of discussions. People will just say any misguided thing to defend their beliefs.

I believe Jesus and the Father are One, because Jesus says so and He doesn't lie.

But mediation inherently indicates a third party, which by your logic would make Jesus separate from the Father—not equal—which He isn't because He says They are One and He doesn't lie.

Sorry, don't mean to be cross.

Throughout the gospels Jesus declared His dependence on the Father, and the Father's ultimate superior authority to which Jesus was surrendered, operating in His life. The very fact the "God sent", without any further evidence, is sufficient to show the Father as outranking His Son. It also, just those two words, reveal two distinct persons. And yet with all that, does not disprove Christ's divinity.
If Christ was equal with the Father in all things and in every way by which the creeds teach and the trinity formula attempts to explain, then Christ could not have died. He did die. But God cannot die, they say. Well, The Son obviously can, and did. The scriptures declare the Son gave His life a ransom for many. Who else but God has not just the power, but the authority to lay down His own life, wherein the life they have, is their own?

 

[Aunty Jane]

He is coeternal with the Father.

Where will I find that in the Bible that Jesus and his Father are co-eternal?

 

[quietthinker]

I just want to reiterate what I believe.
I think that Jesus is most likely the Son of God and not God himself.
But hey, I could be wrong cos I dont understand how Jesus can be God as well

I imagine the mystery of that arrangement will be clearer on the other side.

 

[Cristo Rei]

How do you feel about, "Fully human and fully divine"?

I've thought about it and I'm still thinking about it. LoL. I'm still thing about what you said before about essence.
I'll let you know if I reach a conclusion.
Please feel free to share your thoughts, I've appreciated your input so far

 

[Cristo Rei]

I imagine the mystery of that arrangement will be clearer on the other side.

I agree with that... I don't think anyone really knows it all for sure. There is so much we don't know and will only learn on the other side

 

[DavidB]

Who else but God has not just the power, but the authority to lay down His own life, wherein the life they have, is their own?

Who else? The one who God sent to do just that. The same one who he created all things through, his only begotten, firstborn Son. What an unbelievable expression of love for a bunch of sinners.

 

[Lambano]

Where will I find that in the Bible that Jesus and his Father are co-eternal?

Colossians 1:15-17, if by "eternal" one means "existing before the beginning of time and existing beyond its end".

15 Who (the "dear Son" from verse 13) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[APAK]

Why would Jesus instruct us to pray to the Father "through Himself" if Jesus was not also God?

Jesus is not God for this reason of for any other reason you might think or bring to mind.

We pray in Jesus' or Yahshua's name indeed.

As believers, we pray directly to God, our Father, as his Son instructed us to do.
We pray 'in his Son' or 'his name' because we keep identifying with his works that provided for us this access to his Father in the first place.

Moreover, Yahshua is now our mediator, our gatekeeper and our Lord over our lives as we are indebted to him. He is our only reason for living today and the reason of real hope for tomorrow. As we pray, we bring to mind and heart the agony he suffered on the Cross, and what it meant to him, his Father and to us. It is a gift of grace on his part, to sacrifice his body and life for us. So this is what is meant to also pray 'in his name.' It is much more that just parroting and speaking the word Jesus or Yahshua, and with a resounding Amen at the end. The 'in' means being refreshed and being in the right mind set and heart in not taking for granted that the Son of God gave everything for us. We must keep remembering that his blood and body was given over to death, as we metaphorically keep drinking his blood and keep eating his flesh as not just as a passing remembrance, to thoughtfully and with heavy heart remember him in a deep and sincere belief. The Father will love us more for it!

 

[ChristisGod]

"God why have you abandoned me"

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

It seems one has to apply some serious mental gymnastics or ignore this fact to be certain that Jesus is God

Below is my personal study on this topic for the past 2 years.

The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.


God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John tells us.


We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.


God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.


In Calvin’s Institutes monumental work, it is interesting for a man with such an attention to detail when it comes to dogma and Scripture that he left out any mention of Gods primary attribute that God is love (1 John 4:8;16) and any biblical reference to those two verses in 1 John regarding God is love. His institutes contain thousands of bible references and over 1500 pages in his Institutes.


Another interesting fact is that in the Shorter Westminster Catechism of Faith, question 4 “What is God “? We read the following regarding Gods attributes and notice what is left out.


“God is Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. “


Notice like in Calvin’s Institute’s, the WCF leaves out Gods primary attribute that He is love.


Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. There was no Sovereignty for there was no creation to be Sovereign over. Why do you ask about those attributes and that they were not necessary? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.


The messianic passage of Psalm 22 was played out before their very eyes, and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah, by quoting Psalm 22. The passage was being lived out before all witnesses of the crucifixion. It is a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, God's One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many.


What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone, but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. Moreover, let us not forget Jesus' promise to the sinner, "Today, you will be with me in paradise ( Luke 22:43 )." For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. The Trinity was never fractured, broken, or severed for even a moment, but together, the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners. It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning. Furthermore, when this reconciliation took place at the cross, we read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - 2 Corinthians 5:19. The book of Romans states that "God demonstrated His love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (5:8). So Jesus' sacrificial atonement both propitiates (turns away God’s wrath) and expiates (covers our sins). Gods’ wrath does not fall on the sacrifice. Scripture teaches us that sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned (Romans 8:3).



Psalm 22

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?

Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;

And by night, but I have no rest.

3 Yet You are holy,

O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.

4 In You our fathers trusted;

They trusted and You delivered them.

5 To You they cried out and were delivered;

In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,

A reproach of men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me sneer at me;

They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,

8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;

Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;

You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.

10 Upon You I was cast from birth;

You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;

For there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have surrounded me;

Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.

13 They open wide their mouth at me,

As a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,

And all my bones are out of joint;

My heart is like wax;

It is melted within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,

And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;

And You lay me in the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded me;

A band of evildoers has encompassed me;

They pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones.

They look, they stare at me;

18 They divide my garments among them,

And for my clothing they cast lots.

19 But You, O Lord, be not far off;

O You my help, hasten to my assistance.

20 Deliver my soul from the sword,

My only life from the power of the dog.

21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;

From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.

22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren;

In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.

23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;

All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,

And stand in awe of Him, all you of Israel.

24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;

Nor has He hidden His face from him;

But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;

I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.

26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;

Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.

Let your heart live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,

And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s

And He rules over the nations.

29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,

All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,

Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.

30 Posterity will serve Him;

It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.

31 They will come and will declare His righteousness

To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.


There are eight points about God and Jesus' last words that are important to examine. Some people taught when Jesus said (My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me) that the Father departed, deserted, and turned His back upon His Son to bear God’s wrath on the cross. They teach from the pulpits that God is too Holy to look upon sin. However, is this teaching biblical? Is it true?


1-God is Triune- Tri-Unity

2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated, or abandoned.

3- God does not send His wrath against God

4- Jesus is God

5- Context has meaning, and all the gospel accounts work together along with the O.T. quotations

6-In Luke 23:46, Jesus' last words were," Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit."

7- Within Psalm 22, there are numerous details regarding Jesus' crucifixion. For example, Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him. Further, Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help.

8- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus' trust and relationship with the Father when he states, "Into your hands, I commit MY Spirit."

 

[ChristisGod]

continued :

Though often taught from the pulpit and widely accepted within Christianity, there is a common misnomer that God cannot look upon sin.


This misnomer or idea is rooted in a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13, which states, "Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil." To expand upon the meaning of this verse, God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency. However, this verse does not state that God cannot look at sin or that He cannot allow sin in His presence. God did not turn His back on Adam when he sinned--God sought him out. God did not turn His back on David when he sinned. In the book of Job, God allowed satan in His presence for a specific purpose. Satan wanted to make a deal with God over His servant, Job. God restricted Satan, telling him that he "can do anything but touch Job" and not to "lay a hand or finger on him." In the wilderness, Jesus allowed the presence of satan (face to face).


Jesus did not turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him," why are you persecuting Me?" If God did not turn His back on sinners, then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. The Father turning His back on the Son (at the cross) is not found in Scripture. Jesus ate with sinners, lived among sinners, loves sinners and He suffered and died for sinners.

Wrath- strongs 3709 ὀργή is defined in the Greek lexicon as anger, retribution, vengeance, and indignation. God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love, He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor the early church fathers (ECFs). God is not against Himself. No one in the Trinity is in opposition, no conflict, no dissension, no strife, no disunity, no dysfunction. As if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity.


Jesus bearing God’s wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in the pages of Scripture. That doctrine was developed in the dark ages during the Reformation and called Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement or PSA.


Calvin's comments on Galatians 3:13,


"He could not cease to be the object of his Father’s love, and yet he endured his wrath. For how could he reconcile the Father to us, if he had incurred his hatred and displeasure? We conclude, that he “did always those things that pleased” (John 8:29) his Father. Again, how would he have freed us from the wrath of God, if he had not transferred it from us to himself? Thus, “he was wounded for our transgressions,” (Isaiah 53:5,) and had to deal with God as an angry judge."


The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.


Psalm 22:24

For he has not despised or scorned

the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him

but has listened to his cry for help.


Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.


John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."


Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.


Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.


Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.

In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":


Matthew 20:17-
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”


1 Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.


2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.


John 15:20

Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.


Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.


Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.


Exodus 34:6

Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth;


Isaiah 48:9

For the sake of My name I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off.


Psalm 78:38

And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.


Psalm 85:1-3

You, Lord, showed favor to your land;
you restored the fortunes of Jacob.
2 You forgave the iniquity of your people
and covered all their sins.
3 You set aside all your wrath
and turned from your fierce anger.




The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25.

 

[ChristisGod]

continued:

Atonement- katallagé καταλλαγή -reconciliation, restoration to favor. Strongs 2643.

Thayers: adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favor, (from Aeschylus on); in the N. T., of the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ: 2 Corinthians 5:18f; with the genitive of the one received into favor, τοῦ κόσμου (opposed to ἀποβολή), Romans 11:15; καταλλαγήν ἐλάβομεν, we received the blessing of the recovered favor of God, Romans 5:11; with the genitive of him whose favor is recovered, 2 Macc. 5:20. (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)

Romans 5:11- And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV

Romans 5:11- And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. NASB


1 Corinthians 5:7 say the following: For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. This means just like the firstborn were spared by the blood on the posts of their doors from God’s wrath so to are we passed over Gods wrath from the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus provides forgiveness of sins and God’s wrath like with the Israelites are passed over and it falls upon the wicked, not those covered and protected by the blood of the Lamb. Gods’ wrath as Romans 1 declares is still being poured out upon sin and ungodliness and the bowls of Gods wrath and punishment is still yet to come. So, if Jesus bore Gods’ wrath for sinners, then why is God’s wrath still being poured out now and in the future if in the Atonement Gods wrath was satisfied? The fact is Jesus did not bear God’s wrath on the cross because it still exists and is being poured out in the bowls of Revelation before His 2nd Coming.


Romans 5:9- Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!


1 Thessalonians 1:10- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.


Propitiation- the turning away of God's anger/wrath

Expiation- the covering for our sins


Through expiation—the work of Christ on the cross for us—the sin of all those who would ever believe in Christ was canceled. That cancellation is eternal in its consequence, even though sin is still present in the temporal sense. In other words, believers are delivered from the penalty and power of sin, but not the presence of it. Justification is the term for being delivered from the penalty of sin. This is a one-time act wherein the sinner is justified and made holy and righteous in the eyes of God, who exchanged our sinful natures for the righteousness of Christ at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby believers are delivered from the power of sin in their lives and are enabled by the new nature to resist and turn away from it. Glorification is when we are removed from the very presence of sin, which will only occur once we leave this world and are in heaven. All these processes—justification, sanctification, and glorification—are made possible through the expiation or cancellation of sin. (gotquestions.org)


Propitiation vs. Expiation- The New Testament usage of hilaskomai and hilasmos, consistent with its precedent usage in the Greek Old Testament, speaks consistently of God’s atoning action in Christ directed toward sin on behalf of sinners, not human action directed toward God to satisfy God. The criterion for interpretation, Stott has said, “is whether the object of the atoning action is God or man.” “Propitiation” indicates an action by humans directed toward God, and “expiation” indicates an action by God toward sin and sinners. According to Stott's criterion, these texts favor "expiation" over “propitiation.” Given the choice of translating hilastērion either “propitiation” or “expiation,” therefore, “expiation” is preferable based on the textual evidence of both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. James Dunn summarizes well the case for preferring “expiation” to “propitiation” as a translation for hilastērion: Darrin W. Snyder Belousek, Atonement, Justice, and Peace: The Message of the Cross and the Mission of the Church (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2012), 247–252.

So, as we see, the Tri-Unity of God is eternal, and the Father / Son relationship remained perfect through the crucifixion of Jesus. Our Triune God perfectly accomplished the atonement and our salvation through Jesus suffering for our sins on the cross, and His Resurrection from the dead gave Him and the church victory over sin, death, the devil, and the world.


Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.

Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)

Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[ChristisGod]

continued :

Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.

There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.

Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)


Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many

Conclusion

As we have seen reading through these O.T. passages quoted in the N.T., we discover that the N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. Remember, those were the days of the witch hunts and burning people at stake and hanging them publicly. That is the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement. There are many aspects/theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many aspects to the atonement. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jack]

Excuse me folks, but did I mistakenly join a Jehovah's Witness forum?

 

[Jack]

"God why have you abandoned me"

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

It seems one has to apply some serious mental gymnastics or ignore this fact to be certain that Jesus is God

Jesus was quoting Scripture. Many THOUGHT God forsook Jesus.
Isaiah 53
4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

How could God forsake the most righteous person Who ever lived? God didn't.

 

[Bob Estey]

"God why have you abandoned me"

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

It seems one has to apply some serious mental gymnastics or ignore this fact to be certain that Jesus is God

I believe Jesus was setting an example for us. You could also ask: Why did Jesus pray to God, if Jesus was God? Same answer: He is setting an example for us.

 

[Cristo Rei]

I believe Jesus was setting an example for us. You could also ask: Why did Jesus pray to God, if Jesus was God? Same answer: He is setting an example for us.

Maybe. I don't know for sure.
What I do know is that it makes more sense to me that Jesus is God's son. I simply don't understand how he can be both unless we have 2 God's which I think is unlikely

 

[Bob Estey]

Maybe. I don't know for sure.
What I do know is that it makes more sense to me that Jesus is God's son. I simply don't understand how he can be both unless we have 2 God's which I think is unlikely

There aren't two Gods. I think we will find our way, whether we think Jesus is God's son, or if we think Jesus is God in flesh.

 

[Cristo Rei]

There aren't two Gods. I think we will find our way, whether we think Jesus is God's son, or if we think Jesus is God in flesh.

Me too brother. It's all confusing to me
Thanks for the words of encouragement
God bless

 

[ChristisGod]

Excuse me folks, but did I mistakenly join a Jehovah's Witness forum?

It sure appears that way as many deny Jesus is God (YHWH ). And I do not mean oneness/modalism heresy either that some espouse. Jesus was/is fully God/fully man.