justbyfaith
Well-Known Member
until we choose to sin as Adam
Which happens from conception and the womb, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3.
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until we choose to sin as Adam
I see where the problem lies.Regeneration, the new birth, takes place when one is water baptised has sins remitted and walks in newness of life (Acts 2:36; Romans 6:1-5). Some wrongly think that regeneration is something miraculous, random that occurs to certain men apart from the word of God, apart from hearing and obedience to that word.
Men go out of the way for they choose to do, not born out of the way.
Romans 9:11 shows that men in infancy have done no good or evil therefore are not sinners but in a neutral state. The larger context Paul is refuting the Jew's argument he knew they would have in God having cast them off (Romans 11) but verse 11 does contain truth about how men are born. In the first few verses of ROm 9 Paul is proving to the Jews that God's promises/choices do not have to be based on physical birth.
I disagree with you. I believe that the Bible teaches us that we inherited sin from Adam.There is no such thing as sin DNA.
There is such a thing (John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30).
justbyfaith said:No; because a free gift must be received in order to be appropriated.
No, OSAS is an invention of man
Likewise, men must conditionally sin in order to be a sinner.
I see where the problem lies.
The new birth is miraculous..I once hated and scorned God, was into drugs and the occult but through the new birth I was quickly brought to love Him with a new heart that desires to please Him....then I was water baptized.
Sir. You need to be born again.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:3)
Nope: it is sound doctrine inferred from the scriptures presented (John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30).
I disagree.
Which happens from conception and the womb, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3.
As long as one CONDITIONALLY continues to hear and believe he hath everlasting life. If one quits hearing and believing he will not have everlasting life.
Again, as long as one CONDITINALLY maintains a present tense ongoing belief he hath everlasting life.
If one desries to be of the THEM that shall never perish and of the THEY that shall not be plucked out of God's hand one must CONDITIONALLY be a sheep of Christ per v27.
But no just anyone is a sheep of Christ. To be a sheep of Christ one must CONDITIONALLY 'hear' and follow' Christ perverse 27.
One cannot hear and follow for a moment then stop and remain a sheep of Christ.
If one is born a sinner then what law did the infant transgress? Lie?
If these texts are taken literally then does one become a sinner at conception or at birth?
If at conception (Psa 53) then one cannot become a sinner at birth (Psa 58) for he already is one.
If one does not become a sinner until birth (Psa 58) then one cannot be a sinner at conception (Psa 53).
--I already dealt with Psa 58 in an earlier post
Example:
In a drunken rage a husband beat his wife.
In sin did did my mother conceive me.
Who was in a drunken rage? The husband
Who was in sin? The mother.
that is seems man was born that way.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
After one is born again, one walks in newness of life Romans 6:4. THis change from walking in sin to walking in newness of life comes about a result of God's word being heard, implanted in the heart and men choose to believe and obey that word. Nothing miraculous about it. In Acts 2, those lost Jews heard the gospel as prached by Peter, that word (seed) was implanted in their heart and it prciked their heart leading them to obeying the word in repenting and being baptized for remssion of sins then walking in newness of life (born again). Again, nothing miraculous took place, all was needed as the word (seed) planted in good soil.
1 Corinthians 15:21 speaks of that fact that all men will die physically (Hebrews 9:27) as a consequence of Adam and all men will be resurrected from physical death as a consequence of Christ's resurrection.
On the day Adam sinned he died spiritually (so no such thing as OSAS) but also as a result of his sinning he was cast out of the garden away from the tree of life and would then die physically. As a CONSEQUENCE of Adam sinning we all will die physically. Infants therefore die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin not because they inherited Adam's sin. A drunk drive crosses the center yellow line and hits another vehicle head on killing those occupants. Those people died as a consequence of the drunk driver's sin and do not inherit the drunk driver's sin.
Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
"all men" refer to the same group both times it is used. If 18(a) says all men are UNCONDITONALLY condemned for inheriting Adam's sin then 19(b) says that same all men will be made righteous by Christ's obedience and you have Universalism.
This verse (as verse 19) does NOT say condemnation came upon all men UNCONDITIONALLY nor that justification comes upon that same all men UNCONDITONALLY. One is condemned when he chooses to sin as Adam. One is justified when he conditionally chooses to have faith. Paul's point in v18 is that benefit of Christ's righteousness in dying on the cross can be gained all who have been affected by sin since sin entered the world by the offence of Adam. In other words, the benefit of being justified through Christ's righteousness can be had by any and all who have been condemned by sin since sin entered the world through Adam. Romans 5:18-19 not only refutes original sin but refutes the idea of limited atonement.
The question is whether the life is actually everlasting or not. If, in ceasing to believe, my life comes to an end, then it was never everlasting.
I do not subscribe to OSAS but to POTS.
This means that we are kept by the power of the Lord. Not that we can cease from believing and thus lose everlasting life (the life comes to an end; and therefore was not everlasting). But that those who are recipients of the promise receive everlasting faith and thus everlasting life. They will never cease to believe.
This has to do with my teaching on how Luke 8:13 applies to a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith while John 6:47 refers to a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10).
No one is arguing any differently.
1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Anyone who is truly one of Jesus' sheep will never stop following Him.
Yes. Psalms 58:3.
At conception.
He is already a sinner at birth.
Didn't see it. Can you provide a link?
I suppose that this is an alternate interpretation that may be valid.
However, the fact that there is an alternate interpretation does not necessarily mean that the primary interpretation is invalid. You would have to prove that your alternate interpretation is the only valid interpretation.
As is actually the case.
Adam was certainly made upright; but he took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and thereby, he brought sin upon the entire human race. This is sound and faithful doctrine; and to depart from it is to depart from the realm of being orthodox.
Yes, the new birth takes place when one is water baptized, then one walks in newness of life (born again) (Romans 6:3-4).Sir. You need to be born again.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)
Did condemnation come upon all men when Adam sinned? It sure did! Did we have anything to
do with that judgment? Not one thing. That was done before anyone was ever born from Adam
& Eve. Romans 8:20 says,
20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by
reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.
Paul is telling us that God was the one that subjected us to this vanity. We didn't go to God before
we were born and say, hey God, I don't think I want to go down there, so I will just stay with you.
Nope! We had absolutely nothing to do with being born in this vanity. God did it all in his own
sovereign will.
In other words, what we have been living for the last 6 thousand years is called the 1st death. It
was the death (judgment) that was put upon all mankind, because of the one transgression of Adam.
But the beauty of it is God in his sovereign will subjected the same in hope. He sent his Son to die
for that judgment for the ones that would believe in his death, burial, and resurrection. What a God!
Not only for them, but he also had a plan for the ones that didn't accept him by bringing them in
through the 2nd death.
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
1 Peter 1:5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
As long as one CONDITIONALLY has faith he will be kept by God. Again, the belief must be ongoing, sustained to be kept by God.
Luke 8:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."
Speaks of those that clearly believed but did not maintain a present tense, sustained belief.
1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
Again, the verb "doeth" is present tense, so those that CONDITIONALLY sustain a doing of God's will abides for ever.
John 10:27-28 one hears and follow by choice and can stop hearing and following by that same volition. It is not impossible for one to stop hearing and following and that is why there are many warnings, admonishments to Christians about going into unbelief and falling away, Hebrews 3:12;
Psalms 58:3 new born infants cannot lie,
obviously the language David uses is highly poetic, figurative..
You say one becomes a sinner conception but Psalms 58:3 speaks of birth "... they go astray as soon as they be born..." which is a separate distinct point from conception which occurs about 9 months later.
Now earlier you said infants can sin by lying using Psalms 58:3 as your proof. Here you say men are sinners at conception. At conception all there is is a fertilized egg about the size of a grain of rice with no developed brain, mouth, etc. Explain how any sin, (as the sin of lying) can take place at conception.
Again, sin is not a substance that is passed from person to person,
For sin to exist there must be law (Romans 5:13)
If original sin were true then Christ would have been born with it (Hebrews 2:17; Philippians 2:7-8; Hebrews 4:15)
I hope you see the contradiction of your own words."Nor of the will of man" means man cannot will himself to be saved apart from God. Note verse 12 those that have "received" Christ and have the "right" to become a son of God are those that of their own will choose to believe. Therefore the passage does not eliminate the will of man altogether.
I believe that God will convict a person of their sin especially in light of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Those that are obedient to that conviction of sin and seek relief, God will further reveal His rescue (for them) in His Son for their sin...that would be where they exercise their will in embracing God's Son and Him crucified for their sin. But as you can see, even that exercise of the will was made possible by the previous convicting and illuminating work of His Spirit. (see Jn 16:9-11 and MT 16:17)@prism, do you believe that receiving Christ is an act of the will? If not, why not?
So, in order to receive Christ, a person must make a choice?I believe that God will convict a person of their sin especially in light of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Those that are obedient to that conviction of sin and seek relief, God will further reveal His rescue (for them) in His Son for their sin...that would be where they exercise their will in embracing God's Son and Him crucified for their sin. But as you can see, even that exercise of the will was made possible by the previous convicting and illuminating work of His Spirit. (see Jn 16:9-11 and MT 16:17)