God's Desire is that All Men be Saved!

[justbyfaith]

Psalm14 says what God saw...no man seeks God no not one.
Paul quoted it in Roman's 3.
No we were given as guilty fallen sinners.
No man can come,except the Father who sent me draws him.

Jusr read the thread verses.

Being drawn enables us to come to Him because we are disposed to run away from Him.

It does not guarantee that we will come to Him.

It is like being woken up out of sleep; and you have the choice of whether to wake up completely or lay your head back down and sleep longer.

 

[justbyfaith]

See you in the morning...

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Is God being arbitrary?

Is there some goodness in the people He chooses that is not in those whom He chooses not?

Or does He choose them based on the fact that He foresaw their choice of Him?

God is never arbitrary.
Man has no goodness.
Man is like Ezk16.
God saves sinners.1tim1:15

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

See you in the morning...

Okay. Thanks for interacting. Any questions are good questions. Read the verses carefully.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I asked this question elsewhere.

Why does the Lord, in your opinion, choose some people and does not choose others?

In Deut7 God explained why He made choice among Israel....He said I loved you, because I loved you.
He has perfect wisdom and understanding.
He will save all He can wisely save consistent with His Holiness.

 

[logabe]

It needs to be clarified that this passage does not teach Universalism.

While God desires that all men be saved, this does not preclude that all men will be saved, even though the Lord is Omnipotent; and love never fails.

Because the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. Since it is required of us that we might have an obedient heart, God doesn't force salvation (and thereby obedience to His Lordship) on us.

He gives us a free choice in the matter.

Why did he coerce Paul?

Logabe

 

[logabe]

We see in scripture all men are saved.
Kings, those in authority, young men, old men, Jew, Gentile. People from every tribe , tongue and nation.
Never do we see all men ever born getting saved.
God never intended to save all men.
If all men desired to repent and believe the gospel, they would be saved but the fact is men love darkness rather than light because t hug eir deeds are evil....only evil continually.

What did Paul say about that? 1st Corinthians 15:22 says,

15 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

He also said in 1st Corinthians 15:28,

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son
also himself be subject under him that put all things under him, that
God may be all in all.

God has a plan for the disobedient also. He will place them into the Lake of Fire for their
purification. They will be sold as slaves to the overcomers after they have been judged at
the Great White Throne. Jesus gave us an inkling of this process in Luke 12:42-44,

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward,
whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their
rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master
finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you, that he will put
him in charge of all his possessions.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The Ephesians were no different than the rest of mankind which Paul, through the Gospel. concluded under sin...

as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
(Rom 3:10-18)

The context of Romans 3:10-18 is being directed specifically at the group Jew (Romans 3:19) in order to show the Jew was no better than the Gentile, v9. Paul does not say they were 'born aside' but they 'turned aside'. They were not 'born worthless' but 'become worthless'. Many verses speak to the sinfulness, wickedness of man but no verse says man was born that way but become that way.

 

[prism]

The context of Romans 3:10-18 is being directed specifically at the group Jew (Romans 3:19) in order to show the Jew was no better than the Gentile, v9. Paul does not say they were 'born aside' but they 'turned aside'. They were not 'born worthless' but 'become worthless'. Many verses speak to the sinfulness, wickedness of man but no verse says man was born that way but become that way.

That's absolutely not true...

Romans 3:9 KJVS
[9] What then? are we better than they ? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

No man born that way?...

Romans 5:12,14,19 KJVS
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. [19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Otherwise, where did we get our sin nature?...

Ephesians 2:3 KJVS
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Believe God's Word!!
God Would Have ALL Men to be Saved!!

2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. == A stake in the false teaching Calvinism's heart!

Romans 5:8-12 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. [11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. [12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 John 3:10-16 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. [11] For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. [12] Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. [13] Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. [14] We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. [15] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. [16] Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

“Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.” As Cain hated and slew his brother. But God contrast this with yet “in this the children of God are manifest” ...how are they manifest? Romans 8:18-19 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

 

[Base12]

I suppose that there is an exception to every rule in scripture.

Ouch.

In other words, you are saying God broke the Law so that your opinions can fit better.

The second death comes after the judgment. Before that, a person dies only once.

Now that I agree with.

In other words, for every death there is a judgement.

Christians often twist the verse by leaving out the last part.

And this means that they did not die once before, and were then reincarnated.

I disagree. That is a false assumption that contradicts many verses in Scripture.

And the judgment results in only two possibilities...heaven or hell.

There is no verse in the Bible I disagree with. The Unsaved go to Hell and then are later thrown into the Lake of Fire.

It's what happens *after* the Lake of Fire that most Christians don't bother to investigate. According to the Old Testament, those thrown in go *through* the fire. They eventually end up here again, thus...

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"

Child of Hell means just that. It's as plain as can be. That's Jesus talking.

We are now faced with two options...

1) Jesus didn't mean what he said... you know how he's always making things up

or...

2) It's literal

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That's absolutely not true...

Romans 3:9 KJVS
[9] What then? are we better than they ? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

No man born that way?...

Romans 5:12,14,19 KJVS
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. [19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Otherwise, where did we get our sin nature?...

Ephesians 2:3 KJVS
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In Romans 3, the Jews thought they were better than the Gentiles, v9. Paul disproves this by stringing together several OT verses in vs 10-18. After citing those verses Paul says in verse 19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." It was the Jew who had been given the OT law therefore it was the Jew that was under that OT law not the Gentile. Hence verses 10-18 are being directed specifically at the Jew who was the one under the OT law. Paul is in v19 basically telling the Jew that your own law given to you says you are a sinner.

Under that OT law, physical birth put the Jew into a covenant relationship with God therefore the Jew was not born a sinful, lost reprobate in need of salvation.

=================

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." THis verse does NOT say all men were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinner by Adam's disobedience no more than it says all men be UNCONDITINALLY made righteous by the obedience of CHrist. If all men are unconditonally made sinners due to Adam's disobedience per 19(a) then 19(b) must teach that all men will unconditionally made righteous by Christ's obedience and you have universalism. Yet the Bile teaches men are made righteous by CONDIOTNALLY haivng faith (Romans 5:1-2) and CONDITNALLY made sinners by having chosen to sin (Romans 5:12).

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." If all men were made sinners due to Adam's transgression then all would be guilty of the same sin. Yet this verse speaks of those who death came upon for sinning a sin DIFFERENT from Adam's. If all die as a result of the same exact sin of Adam then there needs to be no difference made in sins.

================

I dealt with Ephesians 2 earlier, which speaks of those Ephesians' own sins (not Adam's) and how those Ephesians kept on making themselves children of wrath in the past by habitually having walked according to the course of this world and had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind. The passage speaks to sinful activities those Ephesians participated in and says nothing about how they were passively born against their will. (See Romans 2:14 and how the lost Gentiles by nature did the things contained in the law, not possible if born totally depraved.)

 

[justbyfaith]

God is never arbitrary.
Man has no goodness.
Man is like Ezk16.
God saves sinners.1tim1:15

So it is the third option.

(the Lord foresaw their choice and chose them accordingly).

Is there a fourth option proposed by your theology?

In Deut7 God explained why He made choice among Israel....He said I loved you, because I loved you.
He has perfect wisdom and understanding.
He will save all He can wisely save consistent with His Holiness.

Let me rephrase the question: why does God love some and doesn't love others?

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"

Child of Hell means just that. It's as plain as can be. That's Jesus talking.

We are now faced with two options...

1) Jesus didn't mean what he said... you know how he's always making things up

or...

2) It's literal

A "child of hell" would refer to someone whose nature is consistent with hell...utterly sinful.

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." THis verse does NOT say all men were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinner by Adam's disobedience no more than it says all men be UNCONDITINALLY made righteous by the obedience of CHrist.

What condition, do you propose, made us sinners through Adam's disobedience?

 

[prism]

In Romans 3, the Jews thought they were better than the Gentiles, v9. Paul disproves this by stringing together several OT verses in vs 10-18. After citing those verses Paul says in verse 19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." It was the Jew who had been given the OT law therefore it was the Jew that was under that OT law not the Gentile. Hence verses 10-18 are being directed specifically at the Jew who was the one under the OT law. Paul is in v19 basically telling the Jew that your own law given to you says you are a sinner.

Under that OT law, physical birth put the Jew into a covenant relationship with God therefore the Jew was not born a sinful, lost reprobate in need of salvation.

=================

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." THis verse does NOT say all men were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinner by Adam's disobedience no more than it says all men be UNCONDITINALLY made righteous by the obedience of CHrist. If all men are unconditonally made sinners due to Adam's disobedience per 19(a) then 19(b) must teach that all men will unconditionally made righteous by Christ's obedience and you have universalism. Yet the Bile teaches men are made righteous by CONDIOTNALLY haivng faith (Romans 5:1-2) and CONDITNALLY made sinners by having chosen to sin (Romans 5:12).

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." If all men were made sinners due to Adam's transgression then all would be guilty of the same sin. Yet this verse speaks of those who death came upon for sinning a sin DIFFERENT from Adam's. If all die as a result of the same exact sin of Adam then there needs to be no difference made in sins.

================

I dealt with Ephesians 2 earlier, which speaks of those Ephesians' own sins (not Adam's) and how those Ephesians kept on making themselves children of wrath in the past by habitually having walked according to the course of this world and had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind. The passage speaks to sinful activities those Ephesians participated in and says nothing about how they were passively born against their will. (See Romans 2:14 and how the lost Gentiles by nature did the things contained in the law, not possible if born totally depraved.)

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)

as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
(Rom 3:10)

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
(Act 17:30-31)

I suppose you deny the substitutionary atonement seeing you deny we have a sinful nature?

 

[Nancy]

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
John 12:32

 

[GISMYS_7]

PTL. God does draw ALL to Himself!! Accept His love, mercy, forgiveness, and gift of salvation or reject Him = your choice!
Timothy 2;4 God==desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[justbyfaith]

God's Desire is that All Men be Saved!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"justbyfaith,

So it is the third option.

(the Lord foresaw their choice and chose them accordingly).

Absolutely not. God is not a spectator who has to observe what ,man will do.
God knows all our thoughts.
What part of men do not seek or choose God on their own do you not understand?

What condition, do you propose, made us sinners through Adam's disobedience?
[/QUOTE]

The condition was sinful unbelief by Adam. God warned him;
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God was not kidding at all. He does not joke about judgment.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
John 12:32

All men ever born have not been drawn to Jesus.
millions have already died before he was lifted up. Such posts are fruitless.
All manner of sinners have lived and died in their sins by the time of the cross.
Take Sodom and Gommorah. All manner of sexual sins exposed and condemned;
19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

Jesus was lifted up, all these commiting these sins as well as others perished.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What condition, do you propose, made us sinners through Adam's disobedience?

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,....."

THis verse does not say men are unconditionally made sinners having inherited Adam's sin. Such an idea is reading much into the verse that is not there.

Adam was not created with a totally depraved nature but was given free will and allowed by God to use it. Adam used his free will to go against God's law then Adam became a sinner. A totally depraved nature therefore is not necessary for one to become a sinner, just free will and breaking God's law.

We today follow in the steps of Adam, like Adam we are not created/born with a sinful nature but with a free will. When we become accountable to God's law and break that law then we become sinners as Adam.