As Helen used to say, not so many things are a hill to die on. And as long as a man doesn't deny that Jesus is God, I'm not going to try to force him to see The Incomprehensible exactly as I see The Incomprehensible. It would be absurd.
Gods Standard is...
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Which is why i have for several years now objected strenuously to those who make the doctrine of the Trinity a matter of salvation. Creating a formula to describe the Godhead as if any man can understand Infinity.
Amen. No one is saved by holding a certain doctrinal position. It is more like what is our doctrine doing to us?
Yes, such rancor over that doctrine, while right in our midst is a man who repeatedly says Jesus is not God. Now THAT'S a hill to die on, because: unless you believe I am He, you will die in your sins.
My few cents worth on your article...this is another article of confusion, as are other multitudes of articles written from a Trinitarian perspective.
The common error denominator in these articles is the lack of understanding of scripture, and the dominant mind-set of believing a man-made concept over scripture. Just saying Jesus was God and that is why he did not sin does not cut it as this article concludes in short, as all of these type seem to do.
The Trinitarian cannot ever read and understanding the birth of Jesus objectively, without some heavy bias.
He is corned to believe that there are three people called ‘God’ that are in Jesus’ life. This is the foundational support of this article.
This is the Trinitarian mind-set:
The so-called 3rd person of ‘God’ conceived the so-called 2nd person of ‘God’ called ‘God’ incarnate, called Jesus. The so-called 1st person of ‘God’ became his Father. And Jesus, the so-called 2nd person of ‘God’ ascended to the same 1st person of ‘God’ who is still his Father. And of course, all three so-called personas of ‘God’ existed at the beginning of time and creation? Using scripture and then context to show this is unfortunately impossible.
So, with all this overwhelming ‘Godliness’ and spirit(s), integrated as the ‘one’ tri-une ‘God’ how could Jesus sin, right? Clear as mud and absurd.
Jesus (not a persona of YHWH, just a human with YHWH in him) could not sin because his Father’s holy spirit (1st and 3rd personas = the Father or YHWH) conceived him and dwelt within him. His Father never left him (besides his temporary departure at his bona fide, all human spirit and flesh death on the cross).
Jesus’ desire or will to sin at any time on earth was ineffective or squelched by the very presence of his Father’s spirit and presence of his own will. And when Jesus was anointed as the Messiah, the Father gave Jesus more of his spirit or power to bear, to instantly overcome temptation and persevere in his suffering and to perform miracles etc. Clearer, as a brook trout stream in the Glacier National Park, I would say.
Blessings,
APAK
Despite your protestations, I will nevertheless post an article I think one of my brothers or sisters might find useful. Even IF I don't happen to think the trinity doctrine is sufficient.
And you just replied to try to convince men that Jesus isn't God. You would do better to try to win proselytes someplace other than a Christian site but I guess that's up to you.
And you just replied to try to convince men that Jesus isn't God. You would do better to try to win proselytes someplace other than a Christian site but I guess that's up to you.
Our doctrine stops us from moving on. That's not what doctrine should do. And I don't think Satan has any problem with it. He's happy with us as long as we're weak and have little strength.
Now, I must begin by saying that I don't believe in doctrinal salvation. But the divinity of Jesus ...His divine origin as being in God, part of God, from God...is really beyond dispute. Jesus Himself testifies that He is from above...from heaven. ALL have sinned...all of us created beings. But Jesus is unique in that He is our co-Creator with the Father. He is greater than Moses as the one who builds the house is greater than the house itself. How could Jesus be Moses' creator? Because He is YHVH come in the flesh.
If we take note of the fact that John the Baptist was the best and purest of us...filled with the Spirit even within the womb...yet even he was not as great as the least of the brethren that Jesus was raising up....as the Lord from heaven. From that we can begin to get a sense of the scale of who Jesus is. The best of us was not worthy to unloose the sandal strap (to serve) of the Master among us.
Now granted, one may encounter the divine and even be filled with the Spirit without a voice telling us who Jesus is. But one cannot continue in the Spirit without the very grandeur of Christ being made known to us. As Jesus said...the Spirit will testify of Me.
If a person has walked in the power of Jesus Christ, there is no doubt about the truth of His divinity to that one.
Of course some people believe that Jesus is God is an idol worshiping kind of way...as in any other religion. Jesus becomes a genie or magic incantation or superstition that serves mankind.
Was Jesus a man? Yes. The error of trinitarians is to see just how human Jesus was and is. There is a denial to some degree of the humanity of Jesus. And that is because deep inside we don't want to think we have to be like Him in order to follow Him. It's easier to just deify Him and say...well He is God therefore I can't possibly be perfect as He is perfect.
But it is an equal error to think that a mere mortal could be raised up to have all authority in heaven and earth. According to the OT...even in the MSS...Jesus is identified as Jehovah (Yahweh).
So then at the heart of our faith is a mystery. Jesus comes from heaven to become as we are...divinity in humanity...so that He can raise up a people like Himself who contain that same divinity in their humanity.
But this takes faith...not a human faith that tries to comprehend an ideological concept by natural means of the carnal mind. That is not enough. No, a faith that brings this reality into being through a revelation from God. The faith OF Jesus Christ.
So then in our humanity there are many ways to get things wrong. But, we are all learning and hopefully seeking God's face..being open to be taught by God's Spirit and corrected in love by others who know Him.
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There is truth to this of course. But it isn't the doctrine itself that justifies us. It's what the doctrine pushes us to do. As in...what are you going to do about it?
We hear so often...you have to believe (this or that) in order to be saved. As if there was a questionnaire to be filled out. But the way of God is not theoretical. It is a practical exam. Very practical.
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101G
Well-Known Member
that's good. for one water, one plannt but God give the increase.
SO I PLANT........
see ya.
PICJAG.
101G
Well-Known Member
what scriptures you presented that shows three persons in the Godhead... none. you can't reconcile John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24.
nor any of the other scriptures we have given.
but we answered all of the scriptures you gave ..... BY SCRIPTURE, and correct you.
so no, you have done nothing but contuine in darkness......
but what we have said will come to light and expose your false beliefs. maybe not now, but it will come. see we have patience, not 101G who is walking you down, but the Lord himself. my work is just to tell you, not make you.
and as for a "manufactured your own doctrine", I'm like the Lord Jesus, this is not my doctrine, but his.....
boy oh boy I love this. PICJAG.
You know I wish I could agree with your post Epi, although I cannot. Sorry for that. Your scripture support is faulty.
Besides your outlandish non-scriptural comment “…But the divinity of Jesus ...His divine origin as being in God, part of God, from God...is really beyond dispute...” is only founded in the minds of men. Then you misuse the idioms of Jesus as some type of further support.
For example, I used to believe that these expressions like the six or so in scripture, where Jesus said he came from above or even heaven, meant that he actually did. I was pretty ignorant then. Then to find out many years later that these were local idioms and expressions and needed to be treated with caution and with the use of CONTEXT. Jesus was never from heaven by reading these idioms, and therefore cannot be used to support a feeling or human logical conclusion that he was before he was born based on these idioms alone.
In a nutshell, these idioms of Jesus I just mentioned means he was born from YHWH who is from heaven or from above, never Jesus. Unfortunately, these idioms have be abused to suit many minds and various doctrines.
I believe you are intelligent to know what I have just said and why I do not believe what you do in this regard, however let me expand on this for a bit.
If I were a star-man and said I came from the stars, or my Father sent me, it might mean I actually came from another place in the universe and my Father send me. Or, it might mean my Father conceived me here on earth who is from the stars and send me on a mission. Jesus was conceived here on earth with another human being and was given a mission by his Father who is from even beyond the stars.
Today, someone might also say, I’m from the Vikings. Now is this person a Viking, a mighty warrior of the gods? Did he come from Scandinavia? No, his Father and his ancestors were Vikings. He happened to be born in Canada. This is exactly the same thought to be used in scripture when Jesus said he came from above or from heaven. Jesus was talking about his source of existence, from his Father, who is from heaven or above.
We don’t have a problem understanding if there was only one idiom of this type in scripture. And if it said that Jesus came from his Father or was sent by his Father. Meaning the Father conceived him and sent him into the world with only the knowledge that the Father is from heaven and not Jesus, right? Unfortunately, scripture is not going to spoon-feed us that way. The Spirit from above guides and unlocks these meanings for us.
As far as John Baptist is concerned, we have to be careful to examine all the accounts surrounding his birth before we jump to a conclusion and try to relate it to Jesus and his birth. They are quite different. indeed.
Read:
(Luk 1:11) And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
(Luk 1:12) Zacharias was disturbed when he saw him, and fear fell upon him.
(Luk 1:13) But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zacharias, because your prayer is heard; your wife Elisabeth shall carry a son and you shall call his name John.
(Luk 1:14) And you shall have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice at his birth,
(Luk 1:15) for he shall be great in the sight of the Lord. And he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
(Luk 1:36) And Elisabeth your kinswoman, she who was called barren, has in her old age also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month of her pregnancy.
(Luk 1:37) For no word from God shall be void of power.
(Luk 1:38) And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord! Be it unto me according to your word! And the angel departed from her.
(Luk 1:39) And Mary arose in these days and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Judah,
(Luk 1:40) and entered into the house of Zacharias and greeted Elisabeth.
(Luk 1:41) And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the baby jumped within her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
(Luk 1:42) And she lifted up her voice with a loud cry and said: Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
(Luk 1:43) But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
(Luk 1:44) For when the voice of your greeting came into my ears, the baby jumped in my womb for joy.
(Luk 1:45) And blessed is she that believed; for there shall be a fulfilment of the things which have been spoken to her from the Lord.
The Spirit of the Father moved pre-born John the Baptist and also Elizabeth, the mother. It was realy for Elizabeth's sake. This is the meaning of John being influenced directly by the holy spirit of the Father or being ‘filled’ with his Spirit in the womb.
John was also the last of the long list of prophets that was influenced by the Spirit of God, not just momentarily before his birth for Elizabeth to jump with joy. No, he was led by the Spirit as previous prophets. What made him unique however were two things: He had the spirit of Elijah and he was filled or influenced by the Spirit of the Father before any prophet before him.
This is not the same thing as Jesus being conceived and having the Spirit of his Father united with his own human spirit for life. I hope you see the glaring difference.
Then that brings me to my last point. Just because I do not believe that Jesus was divine, only the Father, and of course his composition of his Spirit, does not make Jesus a mere human being. This type of binary thinking is degrading. Is not Jesus having the Spirit and the mind of his Father sufficient to say he was not just a mere man. I hope so! Even the 1st Adam who was also called the son of YHWH did not possess this feature. Jesus had divinity in him although this did not make him divine, as it does not make any mere human being believer today divine with YHWH and Christ’s Spirit that are holy.
Bless you,
APAK
101G
Well-Known Member
First thanks for read the post, and second may god open your eyes to this truth. God is "another" of himself to .... come, "shared in flesh and blood. that's why he said let US make man in OUR image, the image of God was to come the TRUE MAN, who is Jesus christ.
so be blessed.
PICJAG.
Ah, yes, that's what I wanted to say! That...God said "us" because He was counting Jesus, who was with Him in the beginning and who was Him. I'm not sure He didn't say "US" strictly for our own benefit...
101G
Well-Known Member
ok begotten from WHO? begotten is not limited to a biological conception. listen, 1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
again how did God beget the Christ. but before you answer God did not have a biologial son, in the natural way as you and I have. please understand what a "son" means outside the arena of biology.
now your answer.
PICJAG
101G
Well-Known Member
by George we believe you got it. "us" is himself ... to come "shared" in flesh. you're correct to say with him is himself, scripture, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". not another person standing next to him, no, but he himself to come shared in flesh. remember the scriptures, Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"
let's see his counsel ......
stunnedbygrace, he is himself to come in flesh. now listen to Isaiah to see it clearly, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I [am] he. here he, he, he, is "with" who? himself, that is to come
see it I, I, I, single designation is "WITH". just as in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". so how can one be "with" and was, was, was, see the past tenses. now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I [am] he; I [am] the first, I also [am] the last". is God two seperate and distinct person, 1. the first and 2. the Last, the other person?... NO, he's the same one person. he's with and he's also the same one person. see it now?.
did you see that he is the First and "ALSO" the Last, same person. I am the First "WITH" the Last, and I am the First and "ALSO" ... "WITH" the Last. the same ONE PERSON.
now this Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God". and, and, and, see it now?
Conclusion the SAME ONE person who is with, and, also, the same person. that's God, not three person, but one Person "diversified" with two "TITLES, Father/first and son/Last. this is JESUS, the ONLY true God.
stunnedbygrace please read theses verses above again and again, and then you will see the "US" and the "OUR".
remember Genesis 1:26 God said US and OUR, but in the very next verse the same God said He and HIM. one person diversified.
PICJAG
101G
Well-Known Member
thanks stunnedbygrace. now, not being argumentive, but just speaking the truth. to the rest of my trinity friends, you must overcome the fact that God said that he, notice the single desigination, that he is the First "AND" he is the Last, but also he, GOD, said that he is the First and is "WITH" the Last. but he said this too. I, again a single desigination, "I" am the First "ALSO" I am the Last.
my question, to the rest of the trinity believers how can one person be "with" himself, and at the same time be "also" himself, "AND" is himself as the First and the Last.
we have the answer do you? it's in the bible. for years, many say oh the Godhead is a mystry, or it can't be explain, ERROR. the bible clearly disagree with those assessments, read Romans 1:19 & 20. so those escuses are just that... excuses. this is the bible, God holy Word, playtime is out.
PICJAG
my question, to the rest of the trinity believers how can one person be "with" himself, and at the same time be "also" himself, "AND" is himself as the First and the Last.
we have the answer do you? it's in the bible. for years, many say oh the Godhead is a mystry, or it can't be explain, ERROR. the bible clearly disagree with those assessments, read Romans 1:19 & 20. so those escuses are just that... excuses. this is the bible, God holy Word, playtime is out.
PICJAG
It seems that the moment men try to build a systematic theology, God thwarts them...maybe because that's not how God wants to be known...He wants to spend time with each child...
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