Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

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Curtis

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It depends on how you define the good word that Christ begins in us. The ongoing process is being conformed to the image of Christ.


Much love!

The point is that the subject in the Philippians 1 proof text, is not salvation in any way.

The problem is Calvinists impose their theology into everything, including a text where Paul is thanking them for the work they did, and were still doing, to support him and his ministry, and isn’t talking about their salvation there.

Verse 5, the subject is Paul’s praise of the Philippian church for the WORK they did and are still doing, as mentioned above:

Php 1:5 because of the way in which you have helped me in the WORK of the gospel from the very first day until now.

Note that in Verse 7, the subject is still their WORK in helping his ministry:

Php 1:7 You have a special place in my heart. So it is only natural for me to feel the way I do. All of you have helped in the WORK that God has given me, as I defend the good news and tell about it here in jail.

Therefore, what WORK do you think Paul was talking about in verse 6, the verse in between two scriptures about the WORK that church was doing to help his ministry?

Do you think he jumped topics in verse 6, then back again in the very next verse?

Php 1:6 And so I am sure that God, who began THIS good work in you , will carry it on until it is finished on the Day of Christ Jesus.

The words “THIS good work” has to refer back to what was said before - that’s how the English language works.

What is the WORK, in the preceding verse that’s being referred to? Salvation? No.

The subject is their WORK of helping Paul spread the gospel - which is very obvious to any non biased reader of that passage.
 

marks

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Verse 5, the subject is Paul’s praise of the Philippian church for the WORK they did and are still doing, as mentioned above:

Php 1:5 because of the way in which you have helped me in the WORK of the gospel from the very first day until now.

Note that in Verse 7, the subject is still their WORK in helping his ministry:

Php 1:7 You have a special place in my heart. So it is only natural for me to feel the way I do. All of you have helped in the WORK that God has given me, as I defend the good news and tell about it here in jail.

Therefore, what WORK do you think Paul was talking about in verse 6, the verse in between two scriptures about the WORK that church was doing to help his ministry?
While we're reading English here, the writing is Greek, so as we look at the grammar rules, we need to keep that in mind.

Even so, the translation here is pretty clear, He who began a good work IN you, not through you, by you, rather, that work is being done, and complete, 'in you'.

That Paul goes onto talk about work we do, that he did, that others do, this doesn't reach back into the letter to change the word God is doing.

The work of the Gospel, the work God has given me, the work God does in you, each need to retain their own meaning, not being blended together.

Much love!
 

marks

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Php 1:6 And so I am sure that God, who began THIS good work in you , will carry it on until it is finished on the Day of Christ Jesus.
You've highlighted "this", this good work.

upload_2021-7-8_15-53-35.png
I don't see that in the text though.

"the one undertaking in you good work"

Much love!
 
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Curtis

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atpollard

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The good work God will complete is their work of continuing in their helping Paul’s ministry, as Paul says they did from the very beginning - which is the obvious subject in that text,

That’s too clear to obfuscate, except by Calvinists.
Complete “IN YOU” … you cannot just discard words without changing the meaning.
 

Curtis

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BTW, there is no P, because there is no I, in TULIP.

There’s no such thing as irresistible grace.

The nation of Israel in the New Testament completely refutes calvinist election doctrine, and particularly refutes irresistible grace.

Jesus came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 15:24.

They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4

They are His own that Jesus came for. John 1:11.

In reformed doctrine, that’s the end of the story - being the elect that the Jewish Messiah Jesus specifically and only came for, means they are predestined for salvation, unconditionally elected,, and are irresistibly drawn, thus they will believe in Jesus and receive Him whole heartedly.

Instead, what happened irrefutably proves freewill exists and there is no such thing as irresistible grace.

In John 1:11 though Jesus came for His OWN, His own received Him NOT.

WAIT! What?! His own elect that He came for did the impossible (according to Calvinism) and rejected their very own Messiah?!

Yes, this is the same people that Jesus, (who is God), came for, that He YEARNED to come to Him, but they refused:

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and AND YE WOULD NOT!

What happened to the elect being irresistibly drawn into grace? How is it that they are rejecting their savior instead of receiving Him?

And how could it be that His own elect people not only rejected Him, and failed to believe in Him, but even killed Him?

Stephen gives us the answer: The Holy Spirit, who draws us to Jesus, and without Him no man can say Jesus is Lord, is not irresistible - as reformed doctrine claims.

Therefore there’s no such thing as irresistible grace - because God allows us the free will to resist the Holy Spirit.

Stephen said this to the elect nation of Israel

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).

Stephen preached to those elect Jews who rejected Jesus in John 1:11, who refused to come to Him (though He yearned for them to in Luke 13:34) and explained HOW they were able to reject Jesus, and to kill the prophets and their Messiah Jesus that God sent them - because they resist the Holy Spirit.

Then they stoned Stephen to death, too.

The elect nation of Israel proves that Reformed doctrine is very wrong - besides it being an insult to God’s character and nature, as will be shown by me in a separate OP.
 
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atpollard

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You might want to brush up on what a brotherly discussion is.
Honestly, I am unsure if we ARE brothers.
Nothing in the last topic suggests that you hold any love for any Calvinist; every word seemed bent on slandering and attacking and misrepresenting Reformed Theology to the point that one could accuse you of lying and defend a charge of slander by pleading “truth”. So I was up front in this topic that I fully expected an adversarial discussion rather than any “iron sharpening iron” between us.

I have a strong “tit for tat” nature. That is not as it should be, but that is what it is. Those that come looking for a fight, find a fight. Those that come looking for a discussion, find a discussion. Compare the OP of this topic with the OP from “Many are called but few are chosen.” He came looking for a discussion and found a discussion. You joined that discussion looking to start a fight, and found a fight.
 
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Curtis

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Complete “IN YOU” … you cannot just discard words without changing the meaning.

What’s it say in other than archaic 16th century Elizabethan English.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

The good work was started corporately, in the church. That good work was God influencing them to work to support Paul’s ministry of gospel preaching. Nothing in the text says that the good work was their individual salvations.

JF and B commentary agrees:

a good work — Any work that God begins, He will surely finish (1Sa 3:12). Not even men begin a work at random. Much more the fact of His beginning the work is a pledge of its completion (Isa 26:12). So as to the particular work here meant, the perfecting of their fellowship in the Gospel
 

Curtis

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So you are going to just “Arminian highlight” verse 6 with a Sharpie and the rest of the paragraph reads just fine. Who cares what good work GOD is doing, it is all about what works WE do.
Got it.
That’s not what I did, and you know it.
 

Curtis

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Is there a SEAL GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE?

Are seals unbreakable?

Every item of food and drugs you buy comes sealed.

You’d get mighty hungry if seals were unbreakable.

Do you even know the specifics transaction that is referred to regarding the Holy Spirit being a deposit that seals the deal?

Obviously not.
 

robert derrick

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I decided to place this in the DEBATE forum because I have no expectations that @Curtis will engage in anything approaching a brotherly discussion on the Calvinist teaching from the Doctrines of Grace commonly called “Perseverance of the Saints”.

BEGIN FORMAL DEBATE:


Arthur
Those who went out from us were never really with us

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2)

Scripture never said they were never of us, but that when they left they were not of us. So it could go either way depending on the individual: Some were never of us and some were no longer of us.

“Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me

When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered. (Ezek 3:20)

When God knows us, we are written in His book of Life. If we turn from knowing Him, then He will blot out our name and remember us no more. Humanistic reasoning doesn't think like God, Who can know someone and then remember that someone no more, forever, like so many tears wiped away from His eyes. (Rev 7:17, 21:4)

For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ. (Phil 3)

The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish.

If we continue in the faith. If we stay in the race. If we remain steadfast unto the end. The biggest Scriptural proof that we can turn from God, even as we can turn to Him, is from all the exhortations and warnings against turning and drawing back. When we actually put our hands to the plow, we are not just professors, but confessing doers of the Word, else we had never even touched the plow in the first place.

Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.

My thought here is: who needs the devil, if we have this teaching to cheer us on into all manner of sin. It's like we will lapse into sin. It's going to happen. So why fight it?

We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament...the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.

And the point is that Saul fell seriously and stay felled unto death. Same as Lucifer, who began as an archangel of God. Dittoes Adam. Scripture never says anything about Adam's sacrifice to God as Abel. Also Solomon. No Scripture one way or the other about his end.

The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities.

Once again. Who needs the devil to deceive us, when we've got this rooting us on to big time sin and fall.

The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus.

Peter repented, Judas did not, and was called by Jesus the son of perdition. Judas is the proving case of knowing God and known of Him and died without Him. Jesus did not choose an unbelieving hypocrite and lip-service turncoat for an apostle. Judas became such a person after answering the call of the Lord and walking with Him.

Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.

...ye are fallen from grace. (Gal 5)

About as contradictive of God's Word as Ye shall not surely die...

My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.

Go ahead and finish it: He is going to bring us safely home no matter what we do...

God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”

God saves us to be able to live holy and godly before Him and remain with His Son to the end, if we turn not back from the heavenly gift and remain seated in His heavenly places.

One Scripture above all proves being saved by grace and falling away from grace unto perdition, which is to fall away so completely, that it becomes impossible to renew repentance again unto eternal life:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4-6)

It is possible to fall away to such a state far worse than before salvation (2 Peter 2:22), such that God would give up on us, who once knew Him and then turned from Him into all manner of transgressions and idolatry:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness. (Rom 1)

They knew God, and they turned from God, and God gave up on them.
 
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robert derrick

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Are seals unbreakable?

Every item of food and drugs you buy comes sealed.

You’d get mighty hungry if seals were unbreakable.

Do you even know the specifics transaction that is referred to regarding the Holy Spirit being a deposit that seals the deal?

Obviously not.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. (Eph 1)

The Holy Spirit of promise: the promise of God is to be with us unto the end, if we keep our promise to Him: to believe and obey from the heart.

God does not cast away anyone from Himself, but as with Cain, we can certainly walk away forever from His presence.

The branch that does not abide in the Vine is that branch that dies to the faith and falls away of it's own dead weight of sin.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered... (John 15)

Pretty much says it all right there. It is impossible to believe Scripture and say it is impossible not to abide in the Vine.
 

robert derrick

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I found it as quickly as you did.

He also makes claims that are largely unsubstantiated or difficult to verify. Here is the opening from that page:

For those who are regular listeners of his broadcasts, to hear eternal security taught, directly or indirectly, is not uncommon! This is so because to him, the gospel itself is very closely connected with the teaching of eternal security. Stanley has put forth his view of this with these words:

“The very gospel itself comes under attack when the eternal security of the believer is questioned.[3] … the very foundations of Christianity begin to crumble once we begin tampering with the eternal security of the believer.”[4]

“Yet I reject the notion that eternal security is just a Baptist doctrine. As you read, I believe it will become apparent that this doctrine is first and foremost a biblical one.”[5]

“You see, it isn’t just good news. It is good news about Jesus Christ, Who paid our sin debt in full to a holy God Who required death for sin and the shedding of His blood, satisfied that requirement, and made it possible for you and me to be accepted in the eyes of God and to be eternally secure in Him. That’s why He called it the grace of God.”[6]

A close examination of these aforementioned statements from Charles Stanley clearly reveals his views on eternal security. To him it is: (1) intrinsically linked to the gospel, (2) foundational to Christianity, (3) a first and foremost Bible doctrine and (4) included under the grace of God!

The following is his definition of eternal security:

“… eternal security is that work of God in which He guarantees that the gift of salvation once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.”[7]​


NOTHING ABOVE comes anywhere close to contradicting my claim that the Bible teaches ...

God grants "eternal salvation" and not "conditional salvation".

NOTHING ABOVE states anything remotely resembling the claim that was made that we Reformed / Calvinists teach ...

“God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.

We are asked to "take your and his word" for Mr Stanley's apostasy based on:

One of the objectives of this booklet is to precisely identify what Stanley means when he says that our salvation “once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.” Remember, this internationally known religious figure has linked this concept to the gospel and the grace of God. The following elaborates his view:

“The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand.”[Eternal Security Can You Be Sure? (P. 74)]

“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.”[Ibid. (p. 93)]

“… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ….”[Ibid. (p. 94)]

By these statements, Stanley’s gospel shockingly declares someone still “saved” who becomes an apostate, that is, one who “becomes an unbeliever” or “lose or abandons their faith.” In other words, one’s salvation is always “possessed forever and cannot be lost” even if such a person no longer believes.​


We are offered no context and, in most cases, we are not even given the benefit of complete sentences.
How can anyone seriously evaluate such "proof"?

Here we have a quote from Charles Stanley that does offer enough to guess at the context:
  • “… You can’t sin and live like the devil down here and get by with it even as a believer. The Bible says you will lose your reward but you’ll be saved so as by fire. You won’t lose your salvation, but there’s a whole lot to lose, brother, by sinful living.”[Eternal Security You Can Be Sure, Tape #3, MH190.]
  • 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 [NLT] 12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials--gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
  • 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 [NASB20] 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each one's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.
Shall we condemn Paul for HIS message as well? Like Stanley, Paul said a Christian can loose a reward and still be saved?



For what it is worth, I think Mr Stanley is incorrect in his understanding of Grace and may have ventured into error that needed correction. I simply object to the slandering of Christian brothers without evidence of any wrong or, worse, with false statements. I feel as strongly about those that spread lies about Wesleyan Arminian teachers (Methodists and Church of God) with whom I disagree on soteriology.
When God was drawing me as a sinner, I used to watch the Sunday morning church services on T.V. This guy Stanley was one of them, and he was really big on sins forgiven past, p-resent, and future at the cross. Even as a sinner, I wanted to believe it, but never could quite get around a salvation that already has you forgiven of anything you do in future.

Now as a Christian with Scripture, I know it wanna-believe junk. If we sin (not when we sin), but if we sin we need confess with God our sin, that He would then be faithful to forgive us.

1. How confess something we haven't done? Or do we go ahead and confess all the things we know we are going to do?

2. Why confess something we are already forgiven of?

It would be a meaningless lip-service so-called confession: Yeah, I know. I blew it again. Whatever.
 
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robert derrick

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I found it as quickly as you did.

He also makes claims that are largely unsubstantiated or difficult to verify. Here is the opening from that page:

For those who are regular listeners of his broadcasts, to hear eternal security taught, directly or indirectly, is not uncommon! This is so because to him, the gospel itself is very closely connected with the teaching of eternal security. Stanley has put forth his view of this with these words:

“The very gospel itself comes under attack when the eternal security of the believer is questioned.[3] … the very foundations of Christianity begin to crumble once we begin tampering with the eternal security of the believer.”[4]

“Yet I reject the notion that eternal security is just a Baptist doctrine. As you read, I believe it will become apparent that this doctrine is first and foremost a biblical one.”[5]

“You see, it isn’t just good news. It is good news about Jesus Christ, Who paid our sin debt in full to a holy God Who required death for sin and the shedding of His blood, satisfied that requirement, and made it possible for you and me to be accepted in the eyes of God and to be eternally secure in Him. That’s why He called it the grace of God.”[6]

A close examination of these aforementioned statements from Charles Stanley clearly reveals his views on eternal security. To him it is: (1) intrinsically linked to the gospel, (2) foundational to Christianity, (3) a first and foremost Bible doctrine and (4) included under the grace of God!

The following is his definition of eternal security:

“… eternal security is that work of God in which He guarantees that the gift of salvation once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.”[7]​


NOTHING ABOVE comes anywhere close to contradicting my claim that the Bible teaches ...

God grants "eternal salvation" and not "conditional salvation".

NOTHING ABOVE states anything remotely resembling the claim that was made that we Reformed / Calvinists teach ...

“God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.

We are asked to "take your and his word" for Mr Stanley's apostasy based on:

One of the objectives of this booklet is to precisely identify what Stanley means when he says that our salvation “once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.” Remember, this internationally known religious figure has linked this concept to the gospel and the grace of God. The following elaborates his view:

“The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand.”[Eternal Security Can You Be Sure? (P. 74)]

“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.”[Ibid. (p. 93)]

“… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ….”[Ibid. (p. 94)]

By these statements, Stanley’s gospel shockingly declares someone still “saved” who becomes an apostate, that is, one who “becomes an unbeliever” or “lose or abandons their faith.” In other words, one’s salvation is always “possessed forever and cannot be lost” even if such a person no longer believes.​


We are offered no context and, in most cases, we are not even given the benefit of complete sentences.
How can anyone seriously evaluate such "proof"?

Here we have a quote from Charles Stanley that does offer enough to guess at the context:
  • “… You can’t sin and live like the devil down here and get by with it even as a believer. The Bible says you will lose your reward but you’ll be saved so as by fire. You won’t lose your salvation, but there’s a whole lot to lose, brother, by sinful living.”[Eternal Security You Can Be Sure, Tape #3, MH190.]
  • 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 [NLT] 12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials--gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
  • 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 [NASB20] 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each one's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.
Shall we condemn Paul for HIS message as well? Like Stanley, Paul said a Christian can loose a reward and still be saved?



For what it is worth, I think Mr Stanley is incorrect in his understanding of Grace and may have ventured into error that needed correction. I simply object to the slandering of Christian brothers without evidence of any wrong or, worse, with false statements. I feel as strongly about those that spread lies about Wesleyan Arminian teachers (Methodists and Church of God) with whom I disagree on soteriology.

By these statements, Stanley’s gospel shockingly declares someone still “saved” who becomes an apostate, that is, one who “becomes an unbeliever” or “lose or abandons their faith.”

We are saved by grace through faith, and if faith is dead, then we are still saved by grace without faith.

The Bible says you will lose your reward but you’ll be saved so as by fire.

This is such a grade school level error in Scripture, that this Stanley guy proves he is purposely wresting Scripture to keep and teach a false doctrine against Scripture.

The fire testing the work in 1 Cor 3, was not the work of the Spirit nor the good works of faith, nor dead works of sin, but the work of ministry.

The whole chapter begins with ministry. And even then, we can minister such destructive things that could defile the temple and body of Christ, that we ourselves are destroyed, even as we ministered the destruction of others who believed and obeyed us and our word, not God and His Word.

Such as the Jezebel teacher in Revelation.

We are warned that no ministry is better than bad ministry, because if we minister, we are touching God's temple, the body of Christ.
 

Curtis

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While we're reading English here, the writing is Greek, so as we look at the grammar rules, we need to keep that in mind.

Even so, the translation here is pretty clear, He who began a good work IN you, not through you, by you, rather, that work is being done, and complete, 'in you'.

That Paul goes onto talk about work we do, that he did, that others do, this doesn't reach back into the letter to change the word God is doing.

The work of the Gospel, the work God has given me, the work God does in you, each need to retain their own meaning, not being blended together.

Much love!
El wrongo. The ridiculously clear context is that Paul doesn’t jump topics.