Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[robert derrick]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is enabling me to do so, but that does not mean I am without sin or that I sin no more. Consider what Paul writes to the Colossians:

"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him..." (Colossians 1:21-22)​

You should notice, Robert, that in what he writes, Paul is not saying that we, in this life, are actually holy and blameless and above reproach (without sin), but that we are reconciled ~ despite our sin ~ to God in Christ, because we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. And in the life to come, we will be presented as such, having been sanctified through the course of our earthly lives. The reconciled part is past (we ARE reconciled), but the presenting is yet to come (we WILL BE presented holy, blameless, above reproach). It is in the same context as 1 Corinthians 1:18 ~ "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Now. Robert, I answered your questions. Now you answer mine... but it will probably require some humility on your part. I will understand if you decline. If you do so, though, I would advise remembering the Colossians 1 passage above and 1 John 1:8 ~ "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" ~ in doing so.

Grace and peace to you.

or that I sin no more.

I.e. living unblameably in the OSAS mind is not to go and sin no more. But by grace to go and sin more.

The confession of disobedience to OSAS is confession of celebratory grace. I have no doubt OSAS requirement for fellowship is to plainly declare they still sin more. There can be no 'righteous living more than thou' among them. They must all be made sinners by grace.

Like in the mafia, once you're a 'made man', you're made with them for life.

OSAS is eternal salvation for believing 'made sinners', as opposed to the unbelieving sort.

Paul is not saying that we, in this life, are actually holy and blameless and above reproach (without sin).

Not 'in this life' of OSAS, which is a life of delusion that openly forbids it:

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

They witnessed such living on this earth, not in the third heaven.

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.

In this life, in the midst of the crooked generation, of which OSAS are proud members by grace.

OSAS acknowledges living blamelessly is not living in sins and going on to sin no more. And so, they must 'translate' that living as only possible in the world to come. That will not be possible at all, if not being done already in this life, while today is at hand.

Them that wait on that blamelessness in the world to come, while willfully celebrating their continued sins by grace, will never see it at all.

OSAS needs to take away the vail of blindness by the god of this world, and just go on and repent of their sins by grace through the faith of Jesus, just like any pother elect saint in Christ that obeys Him and Him only unto the end. They need to stop deluding themselves of having already won a race, that they are not even lawfully in the running for.

i.e. You need to repent of your sins already, and get on with the righteous and unblameable living of the saints. Join the race with them, rather than fighting against them from the sidelines of willful sinners.

The reconciled part is past (we ARE reconciled), but the presenting is yet to come (we WILL BE presented holy, blameless, above reproach)

The reconciled and repented part is past, with forgiveness of sins that are past. The new creature being saved by grace, does not begin until the old man is crucified and past.

Only them living blamelessly will be presented blamelessly, even as only them running the race lawfully will be presented with the lawfully won crown.

Waiting to be magically changed in a moment into what we are commanded with power to be and do now, is strong delusion of OSAS.

If we are not faithful over the little things of sin in this life, we will not be granted the greater things of glory in the next.

Them not ruling over their own hearts and minds with the law of Christ, so as to have power over their own bodies to go and sin no more, will not be given a rod of iron to rule over the nations of earth.

That is hypocrisy at the worst: they reject the rod of iron for themselves, but eagerly await one for others.

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

True. We are being saved by grace through faith. Not, we have been saved. There is no Scripture for 'having been saved', but only for being saved today, while the day is at hand:

If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

If not continuing in, then not disciple indeed. Whether ever was or not is a smokescreen: Eternal salvation is only for them continuing to be His disciples and having been made free from the power of sin to go and sin no more, which is freedom indeed today, not later at a more convenient time by false hope of unconditional salvation.

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

The hope of the gospel is obtaining eternal salvation at the resurrection to life, not being finally made free of sin by death of the body.

By faith we are being saved in obedience to Jesus, and if we continue in that faithful obedience, we shall be saved forever at His appearing. If obeying ends, then being saved ends, and the race is half-run, even as the cake is half-turned.

OSAS sees as the old man already crucified on our own cross as being foolish: it is folly and pride to even think so. They tell themselves they 'are crucifying' and 'are repenting' and 'are circumcising', but never just go ahead and do so, and so are never able to say they have crucified, have repented, have circumcised the heart and the body of sins.

Forever repenting and never ever able to come to the knowledge of the truth of the liberty in Christ, that is free indeed to go and sin no more.

Now you answer mine... but it will probably require some humility on your part. I will understand if you decline. If you do so, though, I would advise remembering the Colossians 1 passage above and 1 John 1:8 ~

Gee. I'm really worried here. I really hope I don't say something wrong.

I am not a sinner like you. Period. You are a self-confessed sinner continuing in sins, and plainly reject to go and sin no more.

And your childish efforts to 'constrain me' to admit I am a sinner like you, on 'pains' of being accused by you, is rubbish to me. I used to be like you in double minded living, but because I have never believed the lies of unconditional security and 'celebratory' grace, I have moved on by true grace of God with help to be repented and done with my sins, and so to live peaceably and unblameably instead.

If anything the lies of Scripture and testimonies of OSAS' persistent sins, has made me even more firm in not becoming a sinner like you, again.

I am no better than any other human with pride to boast, but I am certainly living better and freer than any sinner, by grace to be thankful for indeed. I don't boast over sinners like you, but neither do have desire to return and continue with them like you, especially them like you that think you are better than other sinners, because your filthiness sins of the flesh don't stink so much as theirs, because God cannot see nor smell them: you're a 'good' sinner by 'grace'.

I.e. My fear of the Lord is to fear failing Him at any moment of time, by entertaining sin in the mind and allowing lust once again in the heart, and so to be set adrift in this life with no assurance of Him in my soul, even before I follow through with the sinful deed of the body.

The elect saints know they are already lost by lust in the heart. The saved sinners by grace keep their lust in the heart with their continued sins of the body, but they do not care enough to repent and be purified even as He is pure, because they have no need of doing so by grace, because their grace does not allow God to see their present sins and lusts anymore.

OSAS sits a queen with salvation already secured from the past, and has no need of being repented of sins in order to be saved from sins, but only play the double minded game of continually repenting and 'being sorry' for ongoing sins that never pass away, not in this life nor in the world to come.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yep. I knew it. Just couldn't hold out for very long, before the wrested, twisting, and squirming comes into play.

The only squirming, et. al., is coming from you, Robert, because you can't bring yourself to answer a very simple question with a very simple yes or no answer. Never mind, though, because your silence speaks volumes, and assures me that you see my point... and now the truth of scripture, though you can't bring yourself to admit it, because of your lack of humility.

The closer OSAS gets to even appearing to being living righteously and unblameably on earth, the more they must cover themselves from appearing to not be continuing in sins. Once they get a chance to earn some respect as a saint in Christ Jesus, they bail.

These statements are absolutely ridiculous.

They have no problem with talk of doing good and 'hating' sin...

Right...

...but they want nothing at all to do with having their souls being dependent upon their obedience to the faith.

I thank my God every day that it depends not on me, in and of myself, to sustain myself in Christ, and that nothing in all creation ~ including myself; I myself am a part of creation, you know (as are you) ~ can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus my Lord.

I'll leave you with this:

"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8)​

You, sir, in this thread, are zero of three.

And:

"(T)he fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23)​

And you're zero of nine, here.

Grace and peace to you, Robert. Especially grace, since you seem to be so lacking in it, though I hope not altogether.

 

[atpollard]

Still waiting on what you believe the fear of the Lord is.

Sorry, I missed the question.

Fear of the Lord is clean (Psalms 19:9), the beginning of wisdom (Psalms 111:10), the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7), to hate evil (Proverbs 8:13), a fountain of life (Proverbs 14:27), the instruction of wisdom (Proverbs 15:33) and His treasure (Isaiah 33:6).

 

[robert derrick]

The only squirming, et. al., is coming from you, Robert, because you can't bring yourself to answer a very simple question with a very simple yes or no answer. Never mind, though, because your silence speaks volumes, and assures me that you see my point... and now the truth of scripture, though you can't bring yourself to admit it, because of your lack of humility.


These statements are absolutely ridiculous.


Right...


I thank my God every day that it depends not on me, in and of myself, to sustain myself in Christ, and that nothing in all creation ~ including myself; I myself am a part of creation, you know (as are you) ~ can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus my Lord.

I'll leave you with this:

"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8)​

You, sir, in this thread, are zero of three.

And:

"(T)he fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23)​

And you're zero of nine, here.

Grace and peace to you, Robert. Especially grace, since you seem to be so lacking in it, though I hope not altogether.

The only squirming, et. al., is coming from you, Robert, because you can't bring yourself to answer a very simple question with a very simple yes or no answer.

I have done so plainly for several mockers such as yourself, and gladly do so one last time:

Yes, I continue to go and sin no more. No, I do not live in daily sins.

Yes, I cast down every stronghold of thought and vain imagination of sin in the mind, before it ever becomes lust in my heart, and sins of the body.

I have sin continuing to bombard my mind as a daily fight, that I enjoy, because I overcome them and have the surpassing peace of mind that is worth the fight.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

The reason you cannot see my answer is because you have no clue what it is to have repented of all sins, but rather boast of your going and sinning more and more.

It is not for the elect saints to justify living holily and blamelessly in this life, but rather it is for the self-confessed sinners such as yourself to cease professing Jesus, while yet willfully continuing in unrighteousness living.

I have given you every opportunity to stop openly declaring your continued life of sin, and repent. You refuse to do so, because your false doctrine blinds you daily to the truth.

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I will not repent to become a double minded sinner such as yourself, and I do not bid you God speed, nor continue in any further personal communications with you in the doctrine of Christ, since you bring in the false doctrine of another sinful gospel.

If you truly believed the doctrine I bring is not that of Christ, then you would heed the Scripture as well, but you do not, because 'obedience' to Christ and His written word is only theoretical to you, based upon your whim of the moment, and your own pseudo-spiritual self-righteousness.

Especially grace, since you seem to be so lacking in it, though I hope not altogether.

Not just lacking, but altogether void of blind sin-pleasing grace.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Since you proudly declare your continued sins, and repent not after many admonitions of Scripture to do so, we have no fellowship nor company of the saints.

You can keep posting your errors, and I will be glad to catalogue them and show Scripture to refute them independently.

Now, if you would like to repent of your sins and continue in them no longer, and know the true peace of Christ in the mind and blessed assurance of the soul, then it would be an entirely different matter.

You would no longer being warring against the wholly righteous and blameless living of the elect, and rather be exhorting them in it.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.

By your own confessions willful sins, you were overcome long ago, and now you openly war against ceasing from sins, and you do so very poorly with obvious twisting of Scripture to justify yourself in your sins.

I am still not a sinner like you, nor do I return to my old daily sins like you.

 

[robert derrick]

Sorry, I missed the question.

Fear of the Lord is clean (Psalms 19:9), the beginning of wisdom (Psalms 111:10), the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7), to hate evil (Proverbs 8:13), a fountain of life (Proverbs 14:27), the instruction of wisdom (Proverbs 15:33) and His treasure (Isaiah 33:6).

No problem. Scripture as plainly written. I like it. Thanks.

Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

And so, the fear of the Lord begins with the wisdom and understanding to eschew and depart from all sins and to keep His commandments only.

The power of God working mightily in His saints to cast down all such thoughts and imaginations of sin from the mind, with a purified heart to do good only, and no evil nor since of the flesh.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Sinners are of the devil, but His elect saints are them that do the righteousness of Christ, even as He is righteous.

There are no good sinners, but only saints in Christ Jesus that go about doing good, even as He did in the days of His flesh.

Those who continue in their sins in this life have no fear of the Lord before their eyes, being carnally minded and not subject to the law of Christ, but continuing in the service to sins of the mind and of the flesh.

 

[atpollard]

And so, the fear of the Lord begins with the wisdom and understanding to eschew and depart from all sins and to keep His commandments only.

Not advocating sin and evil, but I think that verse places the "cause" and "effect" the other way around. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" ... so having a "relationship" comes before "obedience". The 'reverential respect' for the LORD that we have come to know (because God has made Himself known like He did to the Patriarchs) is our motivation for departing from sin and keeping His commandments.

When I was an nihilist and viewed God as "an invisible unicorn" (at best) and a "monster guilty of depraved indifference" (at worst), I had no motivation, interest or desire to even KNOW His commandments (let alone obey them). It was after God made Himself known that the desire to "eschew sin" came ... (only then did I want to please Him).

YMMV.

Those who continue in their sins in this life have no fear of the Lord before their eyes, being carnally minded and not subject to the law of Christ, but continuing in the service to sins of the mind and of the flesh.

Is there a difference between "sinning" (missing the mark) and "being a sinner" (walking in the lifestyle)?
Are any saints completely sinless?

[A question above my pay grade, but I don't think so. I know that I am not "perfect" in my walk. That my failures bother me I take as a good thing ... it was not always so.]

 

[robert derrick]

Not advocating sin and evil, but I think that verse places the "cause" and "effect" the other way around. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" ... so having a "relationship" comes before "obedience". The 'reverential respect' for the LORD that we have come to know (because God has made Himself known like He did to the Patriarchs) is our motivation for departing from sin and keeping His commandments.

When I was an nihilist and viewed God as "an invisible unicorn" (at best) and a "monster guilty of depraved indifference" (at worst), I had no motivation, interest or desire to even KNOW His commandments (let alone obey them). It was after God made Himself known that the desire to "eschew sin" came ... (only then did I want to please Him).

YMMV.


Is there a difference between "sinning" (missing the mark) and "being a sinner" (walking in the lifestyle)?
Are any saints completely sinless?

[A question above my pay grade, but I don't think so. I know that I am not "perfect" in my walk. That my failures bother me I take as a good thing ... it was not always so.]

Not advocating sin and evil,

I appreciate your circumspect honesty.

And so, I will give all I have:

but I think that verse places the "cause" and "effect" the other way around. so having a "relationship" comes before "obedience".

I believe this is the slippery slope of continuing in sins and never going on to sin no more, which is a commandment, not a wish.

The problem with 'cause and effect' and 'comes before' implies a temporal period of time between believing and obeying, as though they were two different things. Such a mindset can stretch out without end, and would thus become unrepented sin unto death, which has no forgiveness nor prayer of hope in the world to come.

I.e. it is sloppy carnal thinking at best, and self-justified hypocrisy at worst.

The key is to understand that the faith of Jesus has no separation in principle nor in time with the obedience of Christ: Neither is ever without the other.

Cause and effect are the same with the faithful obedience of Christ. There is no cause and then effect, but only cause with effect. There is no believing coming before obeying, but only believing with obeying, because both believing and obeying begin in the heart:

With the heart man believeth unto righteousness.

Righteousness is by obedience to the faith. There is no acceptable lapse or separation of time between believing with the heart 'unto' obeying from the heart in the body.

The same who teach unconditional salvation by believing, as separate from obeying for eternal salvation, are the same ones who teach 'repenting' in the mind as separate in time from repentance of the body: double mindedness.

If the faith of Jesus is in the heart, then so is the obedience, even as the root springs from the seed. With the world there is time between the seed taking root, but not in the kingdom of God:

And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Hearing without faith to obey is as hearing on stone ground with no root at all. But hearing the Word on ground of the heart has immediate root, which is faith that obeys, and it is only in time where that seed and root will grow to full age or die in place.

It was after God made Himself known that the desire to "eschew sin" came ... (only then did I want to please Him).

When we receive the faith of Jesus, it is not just to believe that God is, and that Jesus is the true God, which He is whether we believe it or not, because the devils believe and tremble. Why? Because their belief is not mixed with obedience: The faith that saves is the faith that can obey, that has power to obey, the faith that believes unto righteous obedience to God.

Sinners cannot please God, because they cannot obey God, neither do they believe they can. Saints are those who can please God, because they do believe Jesus, and through His faith can obey Him.

The faith that is alone and dead is faith that believes Jesus is the Christ, but does not believe it can obey Him in all things, but rather finds excuse not to: double mindedness. OSAS is the doctrine that justifies it by grace.

There is no substance of faith without obedience to the faith, because obedience is the evidence of the faith not seen: The faith of Jesus is faithful obedience to God.

Faith alone is with disobedience, which is without obedience, because eternal salvation is for them that obey Him, not for them that obey and disobey Him: God's eternal salvation is all or nothing, even as it was for His dear Son on the cross, who was obedient in all things unto death, which is the example set for us, and therefore is the commandment for us to do likewise:

For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

The sum being:

There is no faith in the heart without obedience in the heart, which is faith alone and DOA to be taken immediately out of the heart by Satan.

There is no disobedience and obedience in the faith of Jesus, by which we are eternally saved.

In this life, we are being saved by faithful obedience to Him, and at the resurrection eternal salvation will be for them who do so unto the end.

If we disobey Him and sin, then we can be forgiven with confession and repentance of sin, again, but if we justify sin as unstoppable in this life, then we shall be counted with the disobedient by continued disobedience of sin, and having professed Christ with the mouth only, we are appointed with the wrath of the hypocrites.

 

[robert derrick]

Not advocating sin and evil, but I think that verse places the "cause" and "effect" the other way around. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" ... so having a "relationship" comes before "obedience". The 'reverential respect' for the LORD that we have come to know (because God has made Himself known like He did to the Patriarchs) is our motivation for departing from sin and keeping His commandments.

When I was an nihilist and viewed God as "an invisible unicorn" (at best) and a "monster guilty of depraved indifference" (at worst), I had no motivation, interest or desire to even KNOW His commandments (let alone obey them). It was after God made Himself known that the desire to "eschew sin" came ... (only then did I want to please Him).

YMMV.


Is there a difference between "sinning" (missing the mark) and "being a sinner" (walking in the lifestyle)?
Are any saints completely sinless?

[A question above my pay grade, but I don't think so. I know that I am not "perfect" in my walk. That my failures bother me I take as a good thing ... it was not always so.]

The 'reverential respect' for the LORD that we have come to know.

Once again, this is the talk of the slippery slope of time between believing and obeying: we come to know it immediately so soon as we come to believe and obey it.

As by your own Scriptures, nowhere does God say His fear is 'reverential respect'. The pagans have reverential respect for the gods, while having no fear of their gods to disobey them, even so with them professing Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and yet willfully disobeying Him on a daily.

The fear of the Lord begins with the eschewing of evil and departing from sins: it is the fear in the heart not just of wrath for sins, but for failing Jesus, to fail Him and not believe Him and so disobey Him, even as Peter who wept bitterly for it, but not as Esau who cried about the wage of sin, nor as Judas who got caught between the righteous judgment of the Lord and the scorn of His persecutors.

The fear of the Lord in the heart is such that it becomes unthinkable in the mind to entertain thoughts for sin and allow lust to take root in the purified soul washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

The warfare is in the proper place of the heart and mind, not in the body, so that our warfare is not carnal but spiritual and mighty through God to cast down and to cast out and to keep out every thought of imagination to do that which we know not to do: to disobey Him.

Not by might, but by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord.

Christians can give up on the warfare of the body, because they try to fight the enemy with the body: by force of will to make the body do good and not evil.

When the heart is purified of lust, and the mind purged of thoughts for sin, the victory over the body is already won: we cannot do with the body, what is neither desired from the heart nor willed to do by the mind.

The body cannot sin from a pure heart and mind stirred up for war against sin.

Therefore, We cleanse the inside of the cup by grace of God, and the outside will come clean, with no need of excuses for sins.

Is there a difference between "sinning" (missing the mark) and "being a sinner" (walking in the lifestyle)?

Yes. But not as most think.
1. The main difference between a Christian committing a sin and 'being a sinner', is sinners being sinners are saved at all.

2. Sin is not described as 'missing the mark' in Scripture, but rather is a convenient definition of sin by man:

All unrighteousness is sin. All sin is transgression of the law.

So, the real question is not about just committing a sin, as though it were expected (which OSAS teaches), but rather is about doing unrighteousness as a transgressor of the law. There is no 'good sin' before God, nor 'good sinners' in Christ Jesus.

The question that must be answered therefore is: how much, and how often is unrighteous transgression of the law acceptable to God, is winked at by God, is overlooked by God: is not seen by God? (as OSAS teaches)

Asked Scripturally the answer is easily identified by Scripture:

Shall we continue in sin...at all? Shall we enjoy sin for a season...at all? Shall we go and sin more...at all? Shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein...at all?

I had no motivation, interest or desire to even KNOW His commandments.

Sinners sin by nature, both willfully yet ignorantly, not desiring to even know the law of the Lord, as you say. But Christians only sin willfully, knowingly, and against the new divine nature of the soul.

Scripture speaks of them ignorantly sinning under the law of Moses, but no such sin is spoke of for the saints in Christ Jesus, who are now born of His Spirit to know the difference between good and evil: "I didn't mean it" doesn't apply to overcoming saints. God only accepts open confession of what was known to be sin when committed.

If you believe this teaching is true, as I do, then I exhort you to do it. The faith of Jesus says we can do it, because we can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth us.

Is anything to hard for them that believe they can obey the Lord in all things?

But if any believe they cannot do so, then they most certainly never will: they forever remain in wretched double mindedness with the eyesalve of blind grace, that only celebrates their good works, while not seeing their evil deeds of unrighteousness.

We fight the good fight spiritually in the mind that Christ has given us. We cease from 'struggling with sin' by the will of the body, and take the fight to the enemy where it belongs, which is the enmity of the law of sin abiding in the mind: work out your own salvation today, by casting down and casting out, and not allowing the birds of sin to nest at all, because a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

It is the good fight of the true professional, who seeks mastery over the body by first ruling over the mind, in order to succeed with good success in this life. But the elect saints do so for an incorruptible crown.

The assurance of faith is not eternal salvation for them that disobey Him anyway, but is to become overcomers in all things, when we believe it is necessary for our soul's sake to destroy the law of sin in the mind, uproot lust in the heart, and subject the body to the law of Christ, and not at all to the law of sin and death.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The mortal body declares it must obey the law of sin in the body and with the mind, but the mind of Christ declares it must obey the law of the Spirit, in the mind and with the body:

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Perfect peace hath He whose mind is wholly freed from the law of sin by the law of the Spirit, and is now stayed on the Lord and His righteousness, that is now stayed on the frontline of victory.

Them who have won the war unconditionally are them that are at peace, though they must continue to destroy every assault of the enemy trying to return to their old conquered ground. That ongoing war will not end until the resurrection.

 

[robert derrick]

Not advocating sin and evil, but I think that verse places the "cause" and "effect" the other way around. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" ... so having a "relationship" comes before "obedience". The 'reverential respect' for the LORD that we have come to know (because God has made Himself known like He did to the Patriarchs) is our motivation for departing from sin and keeping His commandments.

When I was an nihilist and viewed God as "an invisible unicorn" (at best) and a "monster guilty of depraved indifference" (at worst), I had no motivation, interest or desire to even KNOW His commandments (let alone obey them). It was after God made Himself known that the desire to "eschew sin" came ... (only then did I want to please Him).

YMMV.


Is there a difference between "sinning" (missing the mark) and "being a sinner" (walking in the lifestyle)?
Are any saints completely sinless?

[A question above my pay grade, but I don't think so. I know that I am not "perfect" in my walk. That my failures bother me I take as a good thing ... it was not always so.]

Are any saints completely sinless?

In word and deed. Yes. Of course:

If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Are the saints supposed to therefore confess they have sin?? (OSAS apparently demands it as a rite of passage into their fellowship)

No Scripture says to ever confess sin that is not committed.

When born again of the new divine nature, where all things are made new and cleansed of sin in the soul, then the only sin remaining is in the natural body, which lusts of the flesh are to be purified from the heart, and to be brought into captivity and purged from the mind, which is the good fight of the faith of Jesus, and we certainly have power of God to do so in heart, mind, and body, because we have the very Being of God dwelling in us by His perfect seed:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We have no sin is not a commandment to claim sin in us, but rather is a false declaration of having arrived in perfection of mind and of body: there is no more need to fight the sins of the flesh, adn so we have no more sin to fight against.

OSAS' blind god that cannot see our sins, are in another way saying we have no sins for God to see.

The only unconditional salvation and grace of God is for them that seek His grace for help in time of need to unconditionally destroy the enemy at the gates and keep him subdued at all times:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Since Jesus proved man could defeat sin in the flesh, then we are called upon as saints to do likewise through His faith to obey Him, even as He obeyed the Father:

He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end...

The elect saints have all the same power, faith, might, divine nature and perfect seed, and strength to walk in His steps always. To say otherwise is to reject the power of His blood washing clean the soul, and the might of His God to dwell in us mightily.

The blood of the Lamb does not whitewash the soul, nor make God blind to sin of the soul, which the world can see plainly in the flesh.

 

[atpollard]

Once again, this is the talk of the slippery slope of time between believing and obeying: we come to know it immediately so soon as we come to believe and obey it.

I only meant that I did not respect the LORD that I did not know, then I came to know the LORD (and I immediately had respect for Him once I knew Him.) It was the KNOWLEDGE of God that was TEMPORAL, not moving from "Saved" to "obedient" that had a time lag.

If you claim to know God but the meeting did not radically transform you, that who or whatever you know ... it is not God.
That said, "fake it til you make it" never really seemed like a way to get saved, either. So doing "good deeds" to become a Christian is just as non-Biblical as a Christian with no "obedience".

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, I continue to go and sin no more. No, I do not live in daily sins. Yes, I cast down every stronghold of thought and vain imagination of sin in the mind, before it ever becomes lust in my heart, and sins of the body. I have sin continuing to bombard my mind as a daily fight, that I enjoy, because I overcome them and have the surpassing peace of mind that is worth the fight.

So, the rest of your post is just meanness and spite ~ full of the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19) and void of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), but this response is worth addressing, and very close to being an encouragement in the Lord. So, in saying you "continue to go and sin no more," that seems to me an admission (tacit as it may be) that quite often (at least), you sin, so you do this ("go and sin no more") ~ actually repent ~ as often as you sin. Which seems to say that you are repentant of your sin on an ongoing basis. If so, then you and I are in absolute agreement, and that's great!

One clarification on people being sinners. See, I think you understand the term 'sinner' only in the context of Psalm 1:1 or Romans 5:5 ~ dwelling in sin and unrepentant. But that's not the only context in which the term 'sinner' is used; it's also used in reference to believers all through the New Testament, by Paul, Peter, and especially James and John ~ in reference to believers, those who are of God (His elect), redeemed by the Lord, and thus in possession of the Spirit and repentant of their sin, yet still daily falling short of God's glory. The latter context applies to both you and me. We still sin way more often than we even know, not willfully so, and therefore not "dwelling in sin," but we are still sinners... in this latter ~ not the former ~ context.

The reason you cannot see my answer is because...

...because you still haven't really answered it clearly. Maybe what I say in this post clarifies your comments a bit.

...you... boast of your going and sinning more and more.

Not at all. Again, as John tells his readers and all Christians, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. But if we (continually) confess our sins (and repent), then He is (continually) faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. My boast is in the Lord and Him only.

I am still not a sinner like you, nor do I return to my old daily sins like you.

Well, yes you are, and yes you do, sadly, but one day we'll finally be free of all that. God has assured us of that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[atpollard]

Since Jesus proved man could defeat sin in the flesh, then we are called upon as saints to do likewise through His faith to obey Him, even as He obeyed the Father:

He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end...

The elect saints have all the same power, faith, might, divine nature and perfect seed, and strength to walk in His steps always. To say otherwise is to reject the power of His blood washing clean the soul, and the might of His God to dwell in us mightily.

The blood of the Lamb does not whitewash the soul, nor make God blind to sin of the soul, which the world can see plainly in the flesh.

I am not a sinless Christian.
Of THAT I am certain.

Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
[Romans 7:13-25 NKJV]​

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Who are the "Grace-Haters" ?

 

[atpollard]

Who are the "Grace-Haters" ?

Those that hate the Doctrines of Grace so much that they need to redefine the actual definitions of “T”, “U”, “L”, “I” and “P” into some grotesque parody of the actual doctrines so they can destroy their “strawmen” without ever needing to engage honestly with what the Doctrines of Grace actually claim. Morphing “Perseverance of the Saints” into a parody of OSAS that is redefined by ‘grace-haters’ as “Christians can be saved and continue to live reprobate lives without loosing their salvation” being a classic example of the thought process of those that “hate” the Doctrines of Grace so intensely.

I can understand why some people would reject TULIP and the Doctrines of Grace, however I just ask for enough intellectual honesty to at least reject what they actually teach without creating deliberate misrepresentations to reject as “unbiblical”.

 

[PinSeeker]

Who are the "Grace-Haters" ?

Yeah, that's a "good question."

The problem is that some folks, for one reason or another, unwittingly vastly underestimate God's truly amazing grace. And they actually make His grace out to be something quite other than grace, which is unmerited ~ wholly undeserved ~ favor.

Grace and peace to you, DWG!

 

[robert derrick]

Who are the "Grace-Haters" ?

YOU!

If you don't agree with unconditionally blind grace to help in time of need to avoid being judged for your sinful ways.

I confess, I am a hater of such grace. I also hate the blind god who authored it.

 

[robert derrick]

I am not a sinless Christian.
Of THAT I am certain.

Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
[Romans 7:13-25 NKJV]​

I gave you all I had thinking you were perhaps a serious person. I'll not be making that mistake ever again with filthy grace lovers.

Your preference to remain double minded is your prerogative of course.

But if you ever want to move on to Romans 8, then you can be made free from it.

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Justifying your sins by thinking the chiefest of apostles was also the chiefest of sinners, so that you can serve God with your mind while serving the devil with your body is childish in the lest.

But then, what can be expected from them that look to a blind god that cannot see their sins.

 

[PinSeeker]

Now, this is just mind-numbing, really:

"...if you ever want to move on to Romans 8..."​

You might remember that the very first verse of Romans 8, Robert, says, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." Romans 8 comes right after Romans 1 through 7, where Paul explains the wholly depraved condition in this life of all of humanity. So the truth is, you've never gotten to Romans 8.

You just go right on trying to justify yourself before a holy God, Robert. Good luck with that... although there is no such thing as luck... But if you continue ~ do not repent ~ you will, unfortunately, be on Jesus's left at the final Judgment. I hope that's not the case, but, well, it will be what it will be, I guess.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

Now, this is just mind-numbing, really:
To those perpetually stuck on the double mindedness of Romans 7? Yes. I would agree.

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." Romans 8 comes right after Romans 1 through 7, where Paul explains the wholly depraved condition in this life of all of humanity.

Wouldn't that be depraved humanity before being saved and delivered from depraved sins?

No. Not the sinful salvation of OSAS. Not at all, because they are still just as depraved as the rest of the world, and still deserving of hell, with the exception of learning to do it with grace, and so not being condemned with the rest of the world they live like.

OSAS has got be a multi-multi-legged creature, to have so many feet to put in their mouths.

That would also include being perpetually stuck in the wretched existence of the double minded revealed in Romans 7. But since it is with grace, it can become quite celebratory, rather than wretched as Scripture calls it.

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, though yet being as depraved in this life with the rest of unbelieving humanity."

So the truth is, you've never gotten to Romans 8.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And so, those seeking to obtain eternal salvation by only obeying Jesus, and no more to obey sin in the flesh, are the only ones that have never gotten to the no condemnation of holy, righteous, and blameless living in Christ? Because they refuse to acknowledge the sins they no more do??

But the depraved 'believing' sinners and wretched double minded, they are the only ones with no condemnation. Why? Because they are the ones most humbly declaring all the sins they must continue to??

So, OSAS doctrine of unconditional salvation must be: no longer a depraved sinner of the world, but now a believing depraved sinner who knows it and acknowledges it for life. So, long as we acknowledge are sins we must continue in, then we are no more condemned when doing them mindfully.

"Be ye mindful of your sins, and thou shalt not be condemned with the ignorant sinners of the world."

But, that doesn't make any sense, since the first rule of OSAS doctrine is to be already forgiven those sins to be committed, which therefore need no confession.

Oh wait, by Jove, I think I've finally got it: Acknowledging their sins is only with the mind, since confession from the heart for forgiveness of sins is not necessary! So, while they are sinning like the rest of the world, so long as they know and acknowledge they are sinning, unlike the rest of the world, then they are good to go with God!

Even as they are saved by faith alone without proving works worthy of repentance, so they are not condemned in sins with mindful acknowledgement thereof.

OSAS skips being delivered from depraved human sins and wretched double mindedness of hypocritically trying to serve God in the mind only, while serving sin in the flesh, and go right to the first half of Romans 8:1.

Ceeeelebrate that grace, C'mon!!

 

[PinSeeker]

Now, this is just mind-numbing, really...

To those perpetually stuck on the double mindedness of Romans 7? Yes. I would agree.

No, but rather that someone who thinks he actually understands scripture fails to understand that Paul is actually talking about folks who have a double nature, because they have been born again of the Spirit and thus of God. You, Robert, apparently have no idea what double-mindedness, as Scripture (specifically James, in James 1:6-8, emphasis mine) defines it, really is:

"But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

So, the double-mindedness description is properly applied to one who doesn't believe in the assurance of God ~ one who lacks faith. And actually, Robert, that seems to be you, in everything you're saying in this thread.

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." Romans 8 comes right after Romans 1 through 7, where Paul explains the wholly depraved condition in this life of all of humanity.

Wouldn't that be depraved humanity before being saved and delivered from depraved sins?

No, it would be those who know they are just like everyone else in the sense that they still fall short of the glory of God in this life and are thus no better or more deserving ~ or superior in any way ~ to anyone else. And those who plead with the Lord to have mercy and compassion on others as they themselves have received the Lord's mercy and compassion.

...OSAS... are still just as depraved as the rest of the world, and still deserving of hell, with the exception of learning to do it with grace, and so not being condemned with the rest of the world they live like.

Some of this assertion is good, but there's enough stupidity in it to make it... well, inane. Here, I'll correct it for you:

Those who have been saved (justified by God and received the righteousness of Jesus by imputation) are still in this life just as depraved as the rest of the world and still deserving of hell, but, having received God's grace (mercy and compassion), are no longer condemned with the rest of the world, as they have been freed from slavery to sin and are now slaves to righteousness.

That would also include being perpetually stuck in the wretched existence of the double minded revealed in Romans 7. But since it is with grace, it can become quite celebratory, rather than wretched as Scripture calls it.

Yeah, no. See, this is the problem. Paul, in Romans 7, is talking about the dual nature, not double-mindedness. Because those of us who have received God's mercy and compassion and been born again of the Spirit, we now have this new spirit in us ~ and we have the Spirit ~ and it is waging war on the old. The "new man," as Paul calls it in 2 Corinthians, vs. the "old man," who, yes, is wretched. And the great thing is, in the end, the Spirit ~ and our new spirit, the "new man" ~ is certain to win, because God has promised it, and all God's promises have their "yes" and "amen" in Christ Jesus.

And so, those seeking to obtain eternal salvation by only obeying Jesus...

...are the ones who don't realize they've already been given this eternal salvation ~ if they actually have, because they may not have ~ and are fooling themselves into thinking they can somehow earn it, as James says ("If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" [1 John 1:9]).

Oh wait, by Jove, I think I've finally got it...

No, you most assuredly do not. God will bring you around, though...

Ceeeelebrate that grace, C'mon!!

That's exactly my exhortation to you, Robert.

Grace and peace to you.