Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[robert derrick]

The full hypocrisy of OSAS:

Hypocrisy No.1:

OSAS teaches as commitment to sins in this life that cannot be ever fully done away with: they must yet continue in their sins.

Scripture teaches such profession of godliness is without the power to live godly, and so they profess Christ while denying Him in sinful deed.

Hypocrisy No. 2:

They teaching all sins past, present, and future are already forgiven.

Therefore, they can never have any sins that are not forgiven.

Herego, they can never have any sins that need forgiveness.

To wit: They have no sins to be judged by God, who cannot see any sins to speak of in them.

If there is no need of forgiveness for sins, nor any judgment of sins, then there are no sins: sinlessness in Christ. Sinless Christianity.

While yet openly living in sins and declaring themselves to be sinners.

Hypocrisy No. 3:
They accuse elect saints who teach not living in sins according to Scripture, but rather going on to be made perfectly whole, righteous, and blameless in this life, as being 'judgmentally' hateful and unclean.

They further demand all Christians acknowledge themselves to be ongoing sinners by grace, and reject any notion of not living in sin to that needs forgiveness.

While yet preaching sinless Christianity without any sins in need of forgiveness.

And yes. They actually accuse people of being 'judgmental'. Which only proves the modern source of OSAS infecting the minds of believers in Christ: liberalism.

Liberalism is a disease of a heart that rejects judgment and truth of God, and ruins the life into complete degeneracy, which end we see fully on display today.

OSAS is liberalism taught for doctrine of Christ.

 

[atpollard]

Romans 8:26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; 27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

It is not about our having obtained perfection from sin, it is about our having obtained a LOVE that cannot be lost (Romans 8:38-39). That is why we strive, and fail, and repent and press on ... always striving to return the infinite love we have received with our best (although imperfect) obedience.

 

[atpollard]

[Matthew 19:17 NKJV] 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
[Mark 10:18 NKJV] 18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
[Luke 18:19 NKJV] 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

If Jesus said "no one is good [except God]", why do some teach that they are "perfect" [sinless]?
Isn't "perfect" even better than "good"?

 

[robert derrick]

No, but rather that someone who thinks he actually understands scripture fails to understand that Paul is actually talking about folks who have a double nature

No, but rather that someone who thinks he actually understands scripture fails to understand that Paul is actually talking about folks who have a double nature.

The lie of double nature is to cover for double mindedness. It is used to excuse never fully crucifying the old man of sin, while yet believing to be a new creature in Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.

God does not share a table with Belial, nor a soul with the devil.

The is no old and new man in Christ Jesus, no more than there is doing both good and evil in His body.

apparently have no idea what double-mindedness, as Scripture (specifically James, in James 1:6-8, emphasis mine) defines it, really is

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

The double minded are believers who have yet to purify their hearts of sin, and cleansed their minds of thoughts to do sin, and so are living the hypocritical life of 'good works' amidst sins of the world.

Those who are troubled by it and know their own wretchedness in it, are them that Paul shows how to be rid of it: By defeating the law of sin in the mind through the power of the law of the Spirit, so that lust is purged from the heart, and sins of the flesh from the body.

They are the ones who become more than conquerors through the faith of Jesus, and go on to perfection of living blamelessly and harmlessly in this life.

OSAS soothes the wretchedness of double minded into yucky celebration of blind grace, that just refuses to see the sins of the body. They never go on anywhere from the babyhood of double mindedness, except to perfect it by a seared conscience.

are still in this life just as depraved as the rest of the world and still deserving of hell, but, having received God's grace (mercy and compassion), are no longer condemned with the rest of the world, as they have been freed from slavery to sin and are now slaves to righteousness.

Uh. Right. Got it. Still just as depraved with the sins of the world, yet are slaves to righteousness, having been freed from slavery to sin.

This is the confession of the double minded, who are also salved with gooey grace, who do not see it as wretched, but are even glad about it, so that grace may abound and celebration of grace may be even wilder in performance.

By the error of double nature doctrine, OSAS literally takes the Scripture of wretched double mindedness, that finds itself trying to serve the law of Christ in the mind, yet still serving the law of sin with the body.

And so, they preach a hypocrisy without any basis of reality, that the world despises and blames on the salvation of Christ by faith: OSAS are still depraved sinners such as the unbelievers, but we are not condemned as such, because we believe our sins are hid from God sight in the blood of the the Lamb.

We are living just as sinful as the children of disobedience, but our hearts are good, while theirs are not: We are good children of disobedience and of God.

we now have this new spirit in us ~ and we have the Spirit ~ and it is waging war on the old. The "new man," as Paul calls it in 2 Corinthians, vs. the "old man," who, yes, is wretched.

Here is the carnal mind trying to rationalize a continue life of sin, that will never overcome sin as Jesus did, and as we are commanded to do likewise. The old man rides piggy back on the new, which is not seen by God.

And the great thing is, in the end, the Spirit ~ and our new spirit, the "new man" ~ is certain to win, because God has promised it, and all God's promises have their "yes" and "amen" in Christ Jesus.

The certaintyu of overcoming the world of sins in this life is by the power pof His perfect seed in our souls, and the sword of the Spirit that destroys sin in the mind and the body. It is these elect overcoming saints who have promise of eternal salvation obtained at the end.

OSAS first teaches a life committed to sins. A double mindedness to walk with Jesus while arm in arm with the old man, and finally shrugging off being an overcomer until the new world to come, which will not ever happen.

It is the lie of never being holy, righteous, and blameless, without spot in this life, and expecting God to magically do it for them in the next:

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Jesus is not a new and old man cohabiting with one another. He is not of dual nature, and we are to be as He is in this world, not to be as He is not and never has been.

If Christians have double nature, and we are as He is in this world, then OSAS officially teaches a false christ of double nature, and is guided by the spirit of antichrist that has been in the world ever since it taught Christians how to enjoy the liberty of sin for a season, while acknowledging they must remain servants of corruption unto the end.

"Wouldn't that be depraved humanity before being saved and delivered from depraved sins?"

No, it would be those who know they are just like everyone else in the sense that they still fall short of the glory of God in this life and are thus no better or more deserving ~ or superior in any way ~ to anyone else.

This is called by Paul a voluntary humility, which is to act humble about their depraved life. In a very, very humilified way they actually reject and denounce no longer being depraved as the unbelieving world, all of which lies in wickedness.

And it is no surprise therefore that with much great humbleness, they thoroughly reject being worthy of eternal salvation to walk with Jesus in white:
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

The old man is to have been crucified on our cross, that we may walk with Christ in this life unto the end, not to walk with a false christ to the one side and the old man to the other.

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called. With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

While the elect saints walk worthy of the calling to righteous and true holiness living in this life, they do so in meekness to keep the unity of the Spirit and so be seen by the world as one in Christ and the Father.

But there is no unity nor fellowship with sinners that claim to be a new creature in Christ and the old man abiding still in sin.

Double minded wretchedness is one thing, but double natured souls? That is dystopian surrealism. OSAS is dysfunctional Christianity.

OSAS loudly, yet most humbly, declare themselves worthy only of death and hell:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

And so they are, who openly shame Christ with a continued life of old sins of the old man, despising the Spirit of grace, which is offered to the saints for help in time of need to overcome temptation and sin in the flesh, but instead celebrate it as help in time of need not to be condemned with the world, while living as the world, in enmity with God.

And so, those seeking to obtain eternal salvation by only obeying Jesus......are the ones who don't realize they've already been given this eternal salvation.

And so it makes perfect since to think themselves worthy of hell by the lives of sin they continue in with the rest of the world, since they think they have already been saved, and have salvation in a lock box, that no man can touch, neither God, since Mother grace forbids it.

Scripture never speaks of having been saved, nor were saved, but only of having been freed from sin and death, which is being saved with faithful obedience to Jesus as Lord. The elect are being saved, so long as they continue in the overcoming life of Christ, without the sins of the world, and in the end they shall obtain that salvation eternally, having attained to the resurrection of life, while living holily, righteous, and blameless without spot of sin as He is in the world.

And those living so by faith are the ones not realizing they are already saved and so don't have it live so holily and righteously and unblameably, especially when the Cains of OSAS coming demanding to see them sin like themselves.

Ceeeelebrate that grace, C'mon!! That's exactly my exhortation to you.

No thanks. Not being a confirmed and committed sinner such as you, I'll not be 'celebrating' your grace that enables you to do so.

 

[robert derrick]

The teachings of OSAS that are true for them that believe it:
1. It teaches they are sinners and sin with grace.
2. It teaches they are not worthy to walk with Him in white, but only deserve hell.
3. It teaches they are just like the rest of the depraved world.
4. It teaches they are still the old man of sin.
5. It teaches a voluntary humility to willingly declare their depraved status before all men.
6. It teaches to accuse them living without sins of the world unblameably, as self-righteous sinners worse than themselves.

Now that's a doctrine any false christ could be proud of.

 

[PinSeeker]

The one teaching of "OSAS" (if that's even a thing... ) that is absolutely true ~ because God Himself affirms it through the writers over and over and over again throughout Scripture, His inerrant, infallible Word ~ is that, for any one person, if he or she receives God's gift of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, God does not at any subsequent point, take it away. As Peter says so emphatically:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)​

And Paul also dispels any doubt about the above truth:

"For those whom He foreloved He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified... Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the One Who died ~ more than that, Who was raised ~ Who is at the right hand of God, Who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:29-39)​

There are many truths to be taken from these passages, but one of the greatest is the inevitable and certain perseverance of the saints, those in Christ. What a great God we serve!

Grace and peace to all.

 

[robert derrick]

[/QUOTE]

[Matthew 19:17 NKJV] 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
[Mark 10:18 NKJV] 18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
[Luke 18:19 NKJV] 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

If Jesus said "no one is good [except God]", why do some teach that they are "perfect" [sinless]?
Isn't "perfect" even better than "good"?

If Jesus said "no one is good [except God]", why do some teach that they are "perfect" [sinless]? Isn't "perfect" even better than "good"?

So, you're a no good sinner.

Is that worse or better than just being a sinner?

I think by the way OSAS people talk, it's probably better to be a dirty rotten low down no good sinner, than just your average run of the mill sinner.

They seem to be falling all over themselves to compete at who's the worst sinner. I guess that they can be greatest celebrator of their grace.

Ceeeeeelebrate that grace, C'mon!!!!!!!!

 

[robert derrick]

Here are the titles OSAS believers have given for themselves:

Sinners. Saved sinners. No good sinners. Depraved sinners. Chiefest of sinners.

Any common denominator there? Right. Sin. And Sin. And more Sin. And Sin again. And Sin city.

They have never even gotten close to Saint. I don't even think they have written the word Christian.

OSAS is doctrine of a false christ. Period.

I'm not saying their not saved sinners. I agree with that. It's just who's salvation is it?

Since their God can't see their sins, then their God is blind to their sins. Wouldn't that then be the god of this world?

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them...

 

[robert derrick]

[Matthew 19:17 NKJV] 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
[Mark 10:18 NKJV] 18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
[Luke 18:19 NKJV] 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

If Jesus said "no one is good [except God]", why do some teach that they are "perfect" [sinless]?
Isn't "perfect" even better than "good"?

Is it possible for OSAS believers to blaspheme the Holy Ghost?

 

[atpollard]

Here are the titles OSAS believers have given for themselves:

Sinners. Saved sinners. No good sinners. Depraved sinners. Chiefest of sinners.

Any common denominator there? Right. Sin. And Sin. And more Sin. And Sin again. And Sin city.

They have never even gotten close to Saint. I don't even think they have written the word Christian.

OSAS is doctrine of a false christ. Period.

I'm not saying their not saved sinners. I agree with that. It's just who's salvation is it?

Since their God can't see their sins, then their God is blind to their sins. Wouldn't that then be the god of this world?

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them...

Beware what is coming out of your mouth.

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.” [Luke 6:45 NKJV]

“Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.” [Romans 14:4 NKJV]

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm going to quote the two passages I quoted above and a couple others and ask Robert to give us his understanding of them and how, in his thinking, they do not imply the sure perseverance of the saints:

"For those whom He foreloved He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified... Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the One Who died ~ more than that, Who was raised ~ Who is at the right hand of God, Who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Paul, Romans 8:29-39)

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Paul, Romans 11:29)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth." (Paul, Ephesians 1:3-10)

"And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (Paul, Philippians 1:6)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (Peter, 1 Peter 1:3-5)

"See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is." (1 John 3:1-2)​

There may be silence from Robert on this, and if so, it will be deafening. Or, maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[robert derrick]

Beware what is coming out of your mouth.

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.” [Luke 6:45 NKJV]

“Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.” [Romans 14:4 NKJV]

It's not my mouth it come from, but the mouths of your kindred. Did I make this stuff up? Is it not true? Do you not believe it?

Are you not a sinner? Are you not good? Are you not a no good sinner? Are you not depraved? Is not Paul as the chiefest of sinners your example to sin by?

If it is false, say so and correct the error, otherwise, keep pouting.

 

[robert derrick]

I'm going to quote the two passages I quoted above and a couple others and ask Robert to give us his understanding of them and how, in his thinking, they do not imply the sure perseverance of the saints:

"For those whom He foreloved He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified... Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the One Who died ~ more than that, Who was raised ~ Who is at the right hand of God, Who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Paul, Romans 8:29-39)

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Paul, Romans 11:29)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth." (Paul, Ephesians 1:3-10)

"And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (Paul,Philippians 1:6)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (Peter, 1 Peter 1:3-5)

"See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is." (1 John 3:1-2)​

Grace and peace to all.

If people want to believe they were personally chosen by God to be saved before they ever came into the world, and after having believed that, are already forever saved, while yet continuing in their old sins. Then they can go right ahead and keep believing and celebrating it. It matters nothing to me.

And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Are the elect saints glorified? The first resurrection is not yet passed. No saint has yet been resurrected with glorified spiritual body and mind.

Therefore the Scripture cannot be speaking of the past. None of these things have already happened, but are happening now only for them obeying Him.

Those who speak of salvation as being once and for all in the past are lying to themselves.

The saints are being saved in the flesh, being called, being justified, being chosen, being predestined to be conformed to Him, being a new creature in Him.

And such good work begun and being done does not begin at all, until all the old man is crucified, and the believer is made free from the law of all sin, to no more obey any sin in the flesh.

Sinners have not even started the race. Believing sinners are as the believing devils: they believe only but do not obey.

Only those obeying Him in all things, having purified their hearts to be circumcised from the carnal mind, and crucified the old man and his deeds, are them baptized in Him and being saved unto the end.

Sinners disobeying him in unrighteousness are none of His.

Once the sinner repents of all sins to obey only Him from the heart, and not to obey sin in the body, then that new creature and saint is now predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, which is the life of His obedience in all things.

Those continuing in willful obedience to the devil are not being saved, nor predestined to anything in Christ:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

God knew beforehand who He would begin His good work in: Whosever believes and obeys His Son from the heart.

'Was saved' while yet in the flesh is a lie. Today, if any will hear His voice to obey Him, and not sin, they are being saved, predestined, conformed, called, chosen.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? The question is who, not what. And who is you. We have found the enemy, and it be us:

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

The soul which sinneth it shall die has not been done away in Christ, but rather the sins have been done away from the soul, to no more live therein.

No Scripture speaks of any salvation in Christ without fellowship of God. There is no such thing as being saved but not fellowshipping with Him in the Light. And His fellowship is all in the Light, with no works of darkness at all:

The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

The commandment to be ye holy as He is holy is not a wish for the future. There is no 'safe space' from it, neither do them that ove Him and love to obey Him look for one.

The question is not about 'losing' a salvation, because we've never had a salvation to begin with: being saved is the good work begun, which does not end, until death by sins unto destruction or death of the body unto life.

The elect saints are being saved in holiness and righteousness of blameless living in Christ: them whose old man is dead and gone from off the earth, as a corpse that no longer has breath to breathe nor will to do.

The real question is them obeying Him having power to return to the old man and resurrect him back to life with sins of old.

Scripture continually warns of it and condemns it as worthy of death.

But them who vainly imagine to themselves reason and cause to continue in sins, having never repented of sins, are in strong delusion of having been saved by a false grace.

God doesn't predestine anyone to sins:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Blesses is the man that endureth temptation, not the man that caves in defeat to temptation, whose end is death of the soul.

The only predestination of OSAS is predestining believers to sin and death, by separating obedience from their faith, and so separating themselves from the God they only believe in, but do not obey.

There is no partial obedience to Christ, even as their is no darkness in His Light, nor spot on His body, other than the prints of the marks of the cross.

 

[robert derrick]

For we are saved by hope.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

God has never begun the good work of salvation in any sinner still serving the devil.

All unrighteousness is sin.

There is no good sin, nor good sinner in sight of God.

Until all sin is repented of at once, there is no being saved by God.

No saint is walking in the steps of Jesus, holding to Him with one hand, while yet holding to the old man with the other.

There is no saving fellowship with Christ arm in arm with sin.

 

[robert derrick]

We are not responsible for staying saved. Which naturally would rescind God's part in our Salvation as the sole source for it.

I.e. we don't repent of sins, because we're not responsible for them.

Which of course is why the continue in their sins.

Such irresponsible sinners are just as corrupt, unrighteous, unholy, and unsaved as the rest of the world.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

OSAS is not responsible for anything in being saved: not to repent, not to circumcise, not to purify, not to work out anything for their own salvation, including not to love God with all the heart.

The only salvation God is source of is a clean one, not one spotted with the sins of the world: He does the forgiving and washing clean, we do the repenting and purifying and circumcising and working out by grace through the Spirit.

OSAS is salvation for them that don't want to be responsible for their own souls, nor their own lives in sin.

They are the very definition of the babies that never grow up and go on to the perfection in Christ in Hebrews 6.

They halt in Romans 7, while claiming half the verse of Romans 8:1.

 

[PinSeeker]

Okay, let's go through this. There are some nice little nuggets in there, but the rest of it not so much.

If people want to believe they were personally chosen by God to be saved before they ever came into the world, and after having believed that, are already forever saved, while yet continuing in their old sins. Then they can go right ahead and keep believing and celebrating it. It matters nothing to me.

See, the "continuing in their old sins" is the silly part of this statement, because it implies total non-repentance and willful continuance in sin and that's not the case.

And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Are the elect saints glorified?

The ones still living are not, no. But they certainly will be, when they leave this life and enter into the presence of the Lord. So they can live now in this future certainty.

The first resurrection is not yet passed. No saint has yet been resurrected with glorified spiritual body and mind. Therefore the Scripture cannot be speaking of the past. None of these things have already happened, but are happening now only for them obeying Him.

This is a mixed bag. For those who have been born again of the Spirit, they have experienced the first resurrection, which is spiritual. Paul talks about it in Ephesians 2, when he writes, "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." This is the first resurrection. And this has been and is happening on an individual basis as they receive this new birth, this spiritual resurrection. And it will continue until Jesus comes back, when, as Paul puts it in Romans 11:25-26, the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in and the partial hardening that is now on Israel is removed; in this way all of Israel will be saved. So yes, that part of Romans 8, Paul is writing about the past, present, and future at the same time, actually. People who have experienced this first resurrection ~ you and me included ~ are living lives of obedience (not perfectly, of course, but we're doing our best) precisely because of this first resurrection that has occurred.

Those who speak of salvation as being once and for all in the past are lying to themselves.

Justification ~ being declared righteous in Christ by the Father ~ is a result of the call of God, which is irrevocable, a once-and-for-all event. This is the "have been saved" event. Sanctification then ensues, and that is the lifelong process superintended by the Spirit in which we are made like Christ, finally being brought to completion at the day of Christ. This is the "being saved" process.

The saints are being saved in the flesh, being called, being justified, being chosen, being predestined to be conformed to Him, being a new creature in Him. And such good work begun and being done does not begin at all, until all the old man is crucified, and the believer is made free from the law of all sin, to no more obey any sin in the flesh.

This is mixed up, too. The saints are being saved in the flesh, because they have been given new spiritual life. This is true because they were called, then justified, and they are certain to be glorified. And all this is true because they are chosen by God, members of His elect, predestined to be conformed to Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20).

Sinners have not even started the race.

Well, sinners in the context of those not having received this first resurrection.

Believing sinners are as the believing devils: they believe only but do not obey.

This is ~ sorry ~ just kind of a ridiculous statement. Believers are still sinners because they still sin, but they are striving against sin, not willfully sinning or dwelling in sin. And this struggle against sin is the race we are exhorted to run with endurance, keeping our eyes on Jesus, in Hebrews 12:1-2. If someone who says he believes but does not obey at all, then that is quite evidence that he or she does not really believe at all, has not experienced the first resurrection, is not in Christ, is not really a Christian.

God knew beforehand who He would begin His good work in: Whosever believes and obeys His Son from the heart.

Absolutely, He knew from all eternity who He would begin His good work in, because He chose them before the foundation of the world, before any of them had done anything good or bad, just like Jacob. But not because they would believe, as if it depended on what they were going to do. Again, Paul is very clear in Romans 9:15-16 that God said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Today, if any will hear His voice to obey Him, and not sin, they are being saved, predestined, conformed, called, chosen.

Our predestination does not depend on us, but on God and God alone. He is completely sovereign over all His creation.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? The question is who, not what. And who is you.

So yes, Paul poses this rhetorical question in Romans 8:29, and the question very plainly is 'who,' but the answer is no one. If God is for us, who can be against us? Again, no one. And that includes even us, if we have truly been born again of the Spirit. And actually, Paul goes on to say, in verse 39, "nor anything else in all creation," so it's actually 'who' and 'what,' so the answer is no one and no thing. So, If we are in Christ, there is therefore now no condemnation for sin (Romans 8:1). Now that doesn't somehow mean, "Hey, it's okay to sin, now!"... that would be truly ridiculous. But it does mean that we will eventually overcome sin completely and be completely free of it, and God will make sure of this; this is the function of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

God doesn't predestine anyone to sins.

Yeah, nobody every suggested such an inane thing. I'm not even sure how you came up with this little "jewel."

God has never begun the good work of salvation in any sinner still serving the devil.

Agreed.

All unrighteousness is sin.

Agreed.

There is no good sin

Agreed.

(no) good sinner in sight of God.

Agreed.

Until all sin is repented of at once, there is no being saved by God.

Our repentance is part of the natural result of our having been saved. Yes, all sin should be repented of at once... immediately. On a continual basis, because we still sin, not willingly, but because we are not perfect like Jesus... yet.

There is no saving fellowship with Christ arm in arm with sin.

Agreed.

We are not responsible for staying saved. Which naturally would rescind God's part in our Salvation as the sole source for it. I.e. we don't repent of sins, because we're not responsible for them. Which of course is why the continue in their sins. Such irresponsible sinners are just as corrupt, unrighteous, unholy, and unsaved as the rest of the world. OSAS is not responsible for anything in being saved: not to repent, not to circumcise, not to purify, not to work out anything for their own salvation, including not to love God with all the heart. OSAS is salvation for them that don't want to be responsible for their own souls, nor their own lives in sin. They are the very definition of the babies that never grow up and go on to the perfection in Christ in Hebrews 6. They halt in Romans 7, while claiming half the verse of Romans 8:1.

Yeah, this is all just more demagoguery and silliness.

I'm not surprised that you addressed only a small bit of the Scriptures I cited... only Romans 8, really, which you botched. See above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

Okay, let's go through this. There are some nice little nuggets in there, but the rest of it not so much.

Grace and peace to you.

You're basic conundrum is that you would like to be called a saint, but you know you are still a sinner. Your conscience is not yet so seared as others in the unconditionally secured salvation realm, that I have learned from.

You want to believe that doctrine, but you have yet to be convinced by the free sin it teaches: if all sins are already forgiven, and we are bound to continue in sins until death do us part, then there is no need to confess sins when committed, and they will be by God!!, because confession is for forgiveness, which is no longer needed, having been forgiven all sins already.

I.e. if you really believe that all your sins are already forgiven, then you become a hypocrite by ever confession sins in godly sorrow, which is necessary for forgiveness from God. By doing so, you are telling God He is a liar, who has not already forgiven all your sins.

OSAS doctrine forbids you confessing and having godly sorrow for sins already forgiven. OSAS doctrine is of the devil.

Your unwillingness to acknowledge the simple logic here is because you know it would unravel the doctrine of already being forgiven of all sins past, present, and future.

Your doctrine sets you up for a permanent double minded living, which you like to call the dual nature, but whatever you want to call it, the results are the same: a predetermined continuance in sins, where there is never in this life blameless living apart for all sins of the flesh, which is what God plainly calls His elect saints to.

I am taking so much time with you, because at least you object to the stark realities of what you believe, that I plainly repeat: You call yourself a sinner, because you continue in sins that have yet to repented, as well as agreeing there is no good in you, and you are not good, but your conscience objects to the natural conclusion: You are a no good sinner. You agree with being just as depraved as the rest of humanity, yet you object to being called a depraved no good sinner.

Here is the understanding you need, before you can ever go on to the high calling of God in Christ Jesus to be an elect saint freed from all sins of the body in this life:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Paul is not speaking of himself, nor of any saint in Christ Jesus, even as he was not calling himself the chiefest of sinners. No sane person undefiled by devil's doctrine, whether believer or unbeliever, would even think the chiefest of the apostles, Paul of tarsus, was the biggest sinner on earth.

He was the chiefest example of how God can change murderers of Christians and blasphemers of Christ into holy, harmless, undefiled, blameless Saints on this earth: Not sinners. There are no good sinners at all.

Scripture plainly shows Paul was speaking not of himself as a Christian, but of his sinful flesh, which will not be redeemed until the resurrection of the dead.

Elect saints live holily in this life despite the flesh remaining corrupted by sin. They are not continuing to live sinfully because of the flesh.

Overcomers are them who fight the good fight of faith to stop lust of sin of the flesh at the door: the lust of the devil is not allowed to take root in the heart of them who purify their hearts and cast down every single imagination of doing sin in the mind.

Obedient faith begins in the heart: there is no faith of God without obedience to Him in the heart and the mind, which is where sins of the flesh take root in them that do not obey Him and take up the sword of the Spirit to rule over and have the mind of Christ.

The mind of Christ is not a sinner' mind at all. The mind of Christ is free from the law of sin and death by taking into hand the law of the Spirit to destroy it at the door, not trying to pluck it all up here and there in the heart, and trying vainly to battle sins with a vile body, that is still subject to the law of sin.

You have taken a double-minded, dual-natured condition that Paul is empathizing with, and are foolishly adopting it it as your banner of Christian living for life: Stop that!

You are applying being a dirty rotten low down no good sinner to yourself. You don't like that? Then stop that!

Apply the cognitive to where it belongs: your flesh. Not your soul.

We are what we believe, and so we will do as we believe, and so long as you remain convinced by false doctrine that you are just another helpless sinner in this life, who will never be free from sins of the flesh on earth, because you have been wrongly convinced to believe it: Stop that!

Your being in Christ, your soul is not part of the devil and part of God: Either we are Christ's or we are none of His:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No man has the Spirit of Christ and the spirit of the world in their hearts and minds at the same time: that is a two-faced lie of the devil.

Jesus Christ does not have any fellowship in any heart with any devil: Elect saints do not have communion with Jesus Christ and Belial. Period. Stop thinking that, and you will stop doing that.

The great lie of Satan to already be forgiven of all sins, with no need of repenting of all sins, is robbing you of your true hope in Christ in this life, and of the promised living of being born of the perfect seed of God: holy, harmless, blameless, righteous, faithful and true to God.

Sins of disobedience have no part in that life of the elect saints of Jesus Christ.

You are waiting for the sinless living of the elect saint at death, which will never come for them that continue to disobey Him from the heart.

All unrighteousness is sin, and all sin is from lust of the heart, and all commission of sin is willful disobedience to God, except you be a reprobate, and you no longer have any knowledge of good and evil, righteousness of God and sins of the flesh.

There is no 'sin of ignorance' spoken of at all in the new covenant of Christ. That was only for the unregenerate minds of carnal people taught to live by a law, without first having the regenerated soul of the seed of Christ.

God winked as such things for a time, but no more, and now commands everyone to repent of all sin and believe the gospel only, to do all His righteousness and truth in this life.

That's all I've got for you, again. I pray for you, but you have to be the one to both believe and do it for your own soul's sake. Because our souls certainly do depend on it.

Besides, what's the crying harm and foul in at least trying it??? Repent in your heart of the sins you know not to do at this time, and defy any thought to do so in the mind, by the might and power of God that works in us to do so, and see what happens.

After all, what you've had so far is just a continued existence of good and evil, trying to celebrate over it.

 

[Scott Downey]

h

 

[Scott Downey]

Tried responding to robert derrick, but too much10,000 chars message, so here goes
Well Paul tells believers to put off the 'old man', so it must still be hanging around in some fashion dont you think?
As in patterns of behavior, those new creations are living a lie.
Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Ephesians 4:22
that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
Colossians 3:9
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,

Yes we are new creation in our spiritual sense, but we still live out our remaining days in our old body which is dead because of sin as Romans 8 says.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'll just say this, in follow up of a previous post of mine. Obedience is not to be discounted in any way, shape, or form. But obedience, though it cannot be perfect of anyone in this life because we still, even though desiring not to do so, sin, at least from time to time. But we are being sanctified (being made holy) by the working of the Spirit in us, and thus improving in our obedience. But our obedience is not to be relied on to "keep our salvation." The person who believes that a person can somehow lose his or her salvation after having received it is directly opposed to and refuting, either unwittingly or knowingly, the following passages in God's inerrant and infallible Word:

"For those whom He foreloved He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified... Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the One Who died ~ more than that, Who was raised ~ Who is at the right hand of God, Who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
[Paul, Romans 8:29-39]​

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
[Paul, Romans 11:29]​

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth."
[Paul, Ephesians 1:3-10]​

"And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Paul, Philippians 1:6]​

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
[Peter, 1 Peter 1:3-5]​

"See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is."
[John, 1 John 3:1-2)]​

And I'll add one, from Jesus Himself:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him Who sent Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
[John 6:37-40]​

Grace and peace to all.