Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.
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LOL!
Ah, well, I'm glad that you believe the majority of us identify with the tax collector... But, well... LOL!I appreciate your opinions, NM, but John is not telling us that it's on any of us to cast out the fear he is talking about in our Christian brethren. He certainly does tell us to love one another (1 John 3:11-24), but John's whole context in 1 John 4 (specifically from v.7 through the end of the chapter) is that God is love, and that He loves us perfectly, and that what this means for us is that because of His love, we have no more fear of His eternal judgment. And this is in the same light as John 3:18 (the Gospel of John), where Jesus says:
"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
Now back in 1 John, the "no fear in love" declaration from John does not rule out the presence and constructive effect of "the fear of the Lord" that is "the beginning of knowledge" (Proverbs 1:7). John is speaking of fear of final judgment, which he says specifically in v.17 (which leads into v.18, of course) ~ "so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment," which Christ will execute upon His return.
Jesus is speaking in a slightly different but very much related context in Matthew 10:26-31. There is no lasting consequence of the judgment of men, but God's final Judgment is a much different story.
Both passages are about God and His absolute sovereignty over all the affairs of men. But the difference is that, where Jesus is telling us to fear the judgment of God rather than the judgment of men, John is telling us that, too, but John is, in 1 John 4, saying that if we are in Christ, we have no more fear of the judgment of God... our fear is cast out ~ which is the assurance of our faith. This is really John's whole intent in writing the letter, as we see in full in 1 John 5:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).
Having said all this, I certainly agree that there is no inconsistency or contradiction. But again, John's context is slightly different than Jesus's in Matthew. John says if we are in Christ, there is no more fear of His Judgment, and that God Himself casts out this fear, whereas Christ Jesus says don't fear man's judgment, but rather God's. Like I said, very much related, but slightly different in context.
Grace and peace to you.
No need to be belittling, NM. I would exhort you ~ as I exhort myself ~ as John exhorts us all, as I said above ~ to love one another.
Sinners though we are, we can all do a better job of that... Grace and peace to you.
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LOL!
I appreciate your opinions, NM, but John is not telling us that it's on any of us to cast out the fear he is talking about in our Christian brethren. He certainly does tell us to love one another (1 John 3:11-24), but John's whole context in 1 John 4 (specifically from v.7 through the end of the chapter) is that God is love, and that He loves us perfectly, and that what this means for us is that because of His love, we have no more fear of His eternal judgment. And this is in the same light as John 3:18 (the Gospel of John), where Jesus says:
"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
Now back in 1 John, the "no fear in love" declaration from John does not rule out the presence and constructive effect of "the fear of the Lord" that is "the beginning of knowledge" (Proverbs 1:7). John is speaking of fear of final judgment, which he says specifically in v.17 (which leads into v.18, of course) ~ "so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment," which Christ will execute upon His return.
Jesus is speaking in a slightly different but very much related context in Matthew 10:26-31. There is no lasting consequence of the judgment of men, but God's final Judgment is a much different story.
Both passages are about God and His absolute sovereignty over all the affairs of men. But the difference is that, where Jesus is telling us to fear the judgment of God rather than the judgment of men, John is telling us that, too, but John is, in 1 John 4, saying that if we are in Christ, we have no more fear of the judgment of God... our fear is cast out ~ which is the assurance of our faith. This is really John's whole intent in writing the letter, as we see in full in 1 John 5:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).
Having said all this, I certainly agree that there is no inconsistency or contradiction. But again, John's context is slightly different than Jesus's in Matthew. John says if we are in Christ, there is no more fear of His Judgment, and that God Himself casts out this fear, whereas Christ Jesus says don't fear man's judgment, but rather God's. Like I said, very much related, but slightly different in context.
Grace and peace to you.
You just choose to continue believing what you were taught, which is easy and also not true.
I could not outline chapter 4 any better than I did. Since you feel no need to help cast fear out for your brother and sister in the Lord, there's nothing else I can say.
And I already explained how that verse makes no sense if you think the one with fear has the burden, the onus to eliminate his/her own fear.
You, my friend, would not be good company. I would never be able to confess anything to you because you make no effort to alleviate my fears.
The Lord sees.
No, just mocking the claim that YOU are living a life free of all sin when Scripture tells us that it is not so. (1 John 1:5-9)
We are preserved by the grace of God through our advocate, so any claim to persevere without His grace is nonsense.
The reason Robert Derrick won't answer the question should be obvious to everyone. He knows it will betray his self-righteous attitude.
He can't possibly admit that he's like the tax collector, who cannot even lift his eyes to heaven because he acknowledges his sin and knows he is unworthy. But his taking the low position, gains him God's favor.
The Pharisee, who looks down his nose at everybody else (geeeeee, who does this remind us of) and thinks himself in good standing and boasts about his "righteousness", is not justified before God.
It's okay Robert. You don't need to answer. We already have your number.
He can't possibly admit that he's like the tax collector, who cannot even lift his eyes to heaven because he acknowledges his sin and knows he is unworthy. But his taking the low position, gains him God's favor.
The Pharisee, who looks down his nose at everybody else (geeeeee, who does this remind us of) and thinks himself in good standing and boasts about his "righteousness", is not justified before God.
It's okay Robert. You don't need to answer. We already have your number.
(bolds mine)
You said it!!! Amen!!!! I struggle with this more than anything. We are an angry society. But the love and acceptance of ourselves by Jesus helps us--we are no better than the next and the next is our brother, too. Love is active.
In your opinion. Sure.
Well this is not true at all. We are called to help bear one another's burdens, for sure, and build each other up in the Lord. And for me, personally, mercy is my most dominant spiritual gift. But it's not in the same realm as what John is saying in his epistle.
Well that's not what I think ~ that "the onus is on the one who fears to alleviate his/her own fear" ~ at all. That's quite antithetical to what I said. I invite you to go back and reread.
Well, I'm not sure how much that means if the only ones who are "good company" to you are those who agree with your every word.
Like I said, my most dominant spiritual gift is mercy. Even so, though, we've never talked about your fears, have we? The only thing I get from you is arrogance.
That He does, NewMusic. That He does.
Grace and peace to you.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Truly is amazing. Don't even bother to refute the teaching of Scripture, but simply reject the results of living without sins out of hand, because it is not how someone wants to live, and covers it up with the lie that it can't be lived:
Is any thing too hard for the LORD?
With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
There are people who really believe the God of Israel suffered separation from the Father and died on the cross, so that they could have excuse for continuing in the sins that slew Him??
What? Do they sin graciously now? Or are there some sins just not so evil as others, that God 'winks' at?
Carnal minds distinguish between levels of sin, not God:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Sinners and transgressors are not saved saints, especially not them mocking living righteously and holily without sins of transgression of the law of Christ.
just mocking the claim that YOU are living a life free of all sin.
Ok then, just mocking being free from sin and power of sin, to be pure of heart, clean of mind, and condemning sin in the body, even as Jesus did:
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
What then is it to be made free of by Christ, if not sin? It certainly isn't being free to sin freely and willfully while foolish grace covers it up.
when Scripture tells us that it is not so. (1 John 1:5-9)
God is going to command us to go and sin no more and then tell us that is not possible?? As though it is highminded heresy to even think it??
That's doctrine for the double minded, not Christ's doctrine for saints of single heart and mind.
We have no sin is saying we have arrived and have no more need of fighting against sin to overcome all world, even as Jesus did.
It does not mean we must live in sin.
OSAS is for them that disobey freely, and yet lie to themselves about being forgiven freely without repentance of sins.
Unconditional grace is fool's gold:
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
White raiment is only for the saints washed clean in the blood and living clean in the body, not whitewashed of sin by the blood covering it over, so that God cannot see it.
Sinners who continue in sin are the children of wrath. Foolish believers in OSAS are children of wrath deluded in their sins of disobedience by the doctrine of unconditional salvation and fool's grace in sin.
so any claim to persevere without His grace is nonsense.
Who said anything about continuing without His grace? Both salvation and justification are by His grace.
No one can do anything right to please God without His grace and through His faith, which is obedience to God in the heart, mind, and body, walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.
Saints do of course reject 'unconditional' grace, that 'covers' sins and trespasses, so that God is too blind to see them.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
I was actually waiting to see the OSAS definition of the fear of the Lord.AH!!! I love this statement! Well, not... really... because it's very misguided...
What, in your (I hope not "puffed up") opinion, does it mean to fear God? And before you answer, remember 1 John 4:18, where John tells us that "(t)here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear... (f)or fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love."
See, it's possible, that you understand correctly what Godly fear is, and if so, that's great, but your statement that "OSAS" (again, a clumsy and misleading way of characterizing the Calvinistic understanding of the God's great salvation, but okay) does not produce the required fear of God seems to belie that. I would argue that the true doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, as set forth by Augustine and all the reformers (Martin Luther, John Calvin, and many others even up to today) that championed (champion) it, only produces more Godly fear and more fervent worship of God. So again, what does it really mean to fear God?
Regardless of that, again I will point out, in support of the doctrine of the sure perseverance of the saints, the inspired word of God:
* "...those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."
[Romans 8:30]
* "In (Christ) you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
[Ephesians 1:13-14]
* "To all the saints in Christ Jesus... I am sure of this, that He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Philippians 1:1-6]
* "To those who are elect... (b)lessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
[1 Peter 1:1-5]
I am assuming you think we most identify with the tax collector. If so, then...
Grace and peace to you!
But none came. Fear of the Lord undefined is no fear of the Lord at all.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
I didn't see your question, being gone elsewhere for a while. Which is why I didn't know I was so afraid at some pharisaical gotcha question.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
As a sinner seeking forgiveness of God, I identified with the confessing tax collector.
But as a saint going away justified, I now identify with the forgiven adulteress.
Go, and sin no more.
I.e. the teaching is about how to be forgiven of God for sins, not how to live in sins and still be forgiven.
Which is OSAS, who most gladly love to identify with sinners, and mock them who identify with saints:
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Which is also perplexing to me, since you obviously reject OSAS elsewhere, while apparently confirming their twisted doctrine here, in a silly attempt to play the devil's advocate.
Perhaps it is because preaching righteousness and true holiness of God lived by His saints, and not continuing in sins, is too much a burden for you.
You must therefore be somewhere betwixt excusing all your sin by blind grace, as does OSAS, and being made free of all your sins by Christ, as do saints.
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robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Second, apostasy is not the same thing as what you think it is. It has a clear definition (which I provided). I'll save this debate for another time.
I.e. you don't agree with what I offered, and yet have no answer for it, and stick with what you already think.
But, if you do want to make an answer to what I gave, please do. You obviously have a learned mind, and can show clear teaching of Scripture.
Just not in the point of apostacy.
And if you want to go private or start it on another thread, let me know.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
The mind of OSAS at work: All these statements are from the carnal mind that has no clue about the doctrine of Christ for His saints, because they have no Scripture for any of these things said.
Is "born from above" and "a new creation" something that we slip into and out of repeatedly?
No one 'slips' into salvation by obeying the Lord, nor 'slips away' from righteous obedience back to sins of disobedience.
We can be forgiven 70 x 7, but we are warned to go on to perfection, and leave childish living of the double minded behind.
Or is it more like the 'prodigal son', who always remained a son of the FATHER and was destined to return home to the Father's waiting arms?
There is no 'fate' in Christ. Fate by definition is fatalism without choice. Christians are not Oedipus 'destined' to sin. And OSAS sinners are not destined to return to God, since they are 'destined' to heaven anyway.
OSAS is isn't even salvation by faith alone. It's salvation by fate alone.
Repentance ~ continual repentance for sin,
Continually repenting of the same sins over and over and over, is OSAS repenting for sin. Not God's repenting from sin.
I.e. because they are already forgiven for all the sins they are going to continue in, they now say they are sorry for it.
Well, I guess that's better than the world who doesn't bother saying they're sorry for it. Then again, maybe not, since at least they aren't mocking God to His face.
Jesus shed all His blood, so that we will at least say we're sorry when we will inevitably sin?? That is treading on His blood while 'celebrating' blind grace.
because we still can't help but sin, at least from time to time...<snicker> ~ is the inevitable result of having been given salvation.
I couldn't help myself? Really?
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
OSAS salvation is given to the childish who never will grow up in Christ to become the saint He calls us to be. Not so long as they keep believing their own lies.
The Christian life is a life of repentance.
A life of repentance is no repentance at all, but only a life of being 'sorry' for sin.
The life of the Saint is the life of righteousness and true holiness after repenting of sins.
The OSAS life is a life of saying "I'm really sorry, Lord, Lord, but I really couldn't help myself."
If Christians really don't have any power over sin and really cannot help themselves nor be helped of God to sin, then what's to be sorry about? They are just doing what they have to do.
OSAS is salvation for them that really believe they are supposed to sin. Why? That sorry grace may abound more and more, of course.
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Saints overcome the sins of the world as Jesus Christ. OSAS overcomes the conviction of all sins as only a seared conscience can do.
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
The tribulation of fighting much temptation in the flesh is commanded for saints that would enter the kingdom of God.
The tribulation of fighting much conviction by sins of the flesh is exhorted for sinners that would enter into the kingdom of OSAS.
Grace Once given, it cannot be lost, because it is God, by His Spirit, in His power, Who maintains it in the person.
Grace is given for help in time of need to overcome temptation and sin, and only given to them who come boldly for it. Grace is not given to become the 'possession' of the person, especially not to the disobedient God would have to push powerfully upon in order to 'maintain' it there.
By definition sinners of disobedience do not want the help of grace to overcome sin, especially when they believe they cannot help it.
I don't really like the language "once saved, always saved," because I think it is a little clumsy. But we cannot lose our salvation once it has been granted us. It is what it is.
Not too mention altogether false. Eternal salvation is not 'given' nor 'granted', but is obtained by them who obey Him to the end.
OSAS is salvation for them that think sinning is just being a little clumsy, like "Oops I tripped. But it's not really my fault, because I couldn't help myself."
We are given knowledge of salvation by knowing we are saved through remission of sins and repentance of dead works once for all.
And a golf ball is what it is. Not Jesus' salvation obtained by overcomers of the world, even as He did.
Hyper-Calvinism is not Calvinism at all, but only a caricature of it.
You mean there is something out there that makes this stuff look sane and reasonable??
How can anyone get more 'hyper' about salvation, than a salvation that saves by fate?
Is "born from above" and "a new creation" something that we slip into and out of repeatedly?
No one 'slips' into salvation by obeying the Lord, nor 'slips away' from righteous obedience back to sins of disobedience.
We can be forgiven 70 x 7, but we are warned to go on to perfection, and leave childish living of the double minded behind.
Or is it more like the 'prodigal son', who always remained a son of the FATHER and was destined to return home to the Father's waiting arms?
There is no 'fate' in Christ. Fate by definition is fatalism without choice. Christians are not Oedipus 'destined' to sin. And OSAS sinners are not destined to return to God, since they are 'destined' to heaven anyway.
OSAS is isn't even salvation by faith alone. It's salvation by fate alone.
Repentance ~ continual repentance for sin,
Continually repenting of the same sins over and over and over, is OSAS repenting for sin. Not God's repenting from sin.
I.e. because they are already forgiven for all the sins they are going to continue in, they now say they are sorry for it.
Well, I guess that's better than the world who doesn't bother saying they're sorry for it. Then again, maybe not, since at least they aren't mocking God to His face.
Jesus shed all His blood, so that we will at least say we're sorry when we will inevitably sin?? That is treading on His blood while 'celebrating' blind grace.
because we still can't help but sin, at least from time to time...<snicker> ~ is the inevitable result of having been given salvation.
I couldn't help myself? Really?
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
OSAS salvation is given to the childish who never will grow up in Christ to become the saint He calls us to be. Not so long as they keep believing their own lies.
The Christian life is a life of repentance.
A life of repentance is no repentance at all, but only a life of being 'sorry' for sin.
The life of the Saint is the life of righteousness and true holiness after repenting of sins.
The OSAS life is a life of saying "I'm really sorry, Lord, Lord, but I really couldn't help myself."
If Christians really don't have any power over sin and really cannot help themselves nor be helped of God to sin, then what's to be sorry about? They are just doing what they have to do.
OSAS is salvation for them that really believe they are supposed to sin. Why? That sorry grace may abound more and more, of course.
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Saints overcome the sins of the world as Jesus Christ. OSAS overcomes the conviction of all sins as only a seared conscience can do.
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
The tribulation of fighting much temptation in the flesh is commanded for saints that would enter the kingdom of God.
The tribulation of fighting much conviction by sins of the flesh is exhorted for sinners that would enter into the kingdom of OSAS.
Grace Once given, it cannot be lost, because it is God, by His Spirit, in His power, Who maintains it in the person.
Grace is given for help in time of need to overcome temptation and sin, and only given to them who come boldly for it. Grace is not given to become the 'possession' of the person, especially not to the disobedient God would have to push powerfully upon in order to 'maintain' it there.
By definition sinners of disobedience do not want the help of grace to overcome sin, especially when they believe they cannot help it.
I don't really like the language "once saved, always saved," because I think it is a little clumsy. But we cannot lose our salvation once it has been granted us. It is what it is.
Not too mention altogether false. Eternal salvation is not 'given' nor 'granted', but is obtained by them who obey Him to the end.
OSAS is salvation for them that think sinning is just being a little clumsy, like "Oops I tripped. But it's not really my fault, because I couldn't help myself."
We are given knowledge of salvation by knowing we are saved through remission of sins and repentance of dead works once for all.
And a golf ball is what it is. Not Jesus' salvation obtained by overcomers of the world, even as He did.
Hyper-Calvinism is not Calvinism at all, but only a caricature of it.
You mean there is something out there that makes this stuff look sane and reasonable??
How can anyone get more 'hyper' about salvation, than a salvation that saves by fate?
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
What he is saying is, if one says he has faith, but there are no works to show it then there is no faith at all, it is dead.
James is speaking of a faith that is now dead, being alone works of faith that have ceased. They are deceased believers whose only remaining faith is lip service for Christ and His people.
He compares it to the spirit leaving the body.
Only that which once lived by the spirit can become dead and called dead.
Faith becoming alone is dead: the dead corpse of what was once alive.
No faith at all is nothing at all. By definition, there is no such thing as no faith at all, being dead.
The only things dead in this world are things that once lived.
No faith at all is not possible, except for concrete. Concrete has no faith at all, because it cannot have faith at all, and so cannot be said to have dead faith. Concrete is not dead, nor alive. It's concrete.
Souls will always have faith in something and believe something, even if it is a lie. It is impossible for a soul to not believe anything, which is 'no faith at all'.
OSAS doesn't just produce a carnal mind for believers to die in, but it also produces a mind for dead believers to speak irrationally with.
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies.
Every time they try to say something they think is really great and profound, they only show they have no clue what is being said.
A dead believer of a dead faith is the soul of one that is dead through trespasses and sin, and yet still believes he is saved by the unconditional grace of faith alone.
James is speaking of a faith that is now dead, being alone works of faith that have ceased. They are deceased believers whose only remaining faith is lip service for Christ and His people.
He compares it to the spirit leaving the body.
Only that which once lived by the spirit can become dead and called dead.
Faith becoming alone is dead: the dead corpse of what was once alive.
No faith at all is nothing at all. By definition, there is no such thing as no faith at all, being dead.
The only things dead in this world are things that once lived.
No faith at all is not possible, except for concrete. Concrete has no faith at all, because it cannot have faith at all, and so cannot be said to have dead faith. Concrete is not dead, nor alive. It's concrete.
Souls will always have faith in something and believe something, even if it is a lie. It is impossible for a soul to not believe anything, which is 'no faith at all'.
OSAS doesn't just produce a carnal mind for believers to die in, but it also produces a mind for dead believers to speak irrationally with.
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies.
Every time they try to say something they think is really great and profound, they only show they have no clue what is being said.
A dead believer of a dead faith is the soul of one that is dead through trespasses and sin, and yet still believes he is saved by the unconditional grace of faith alone.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Lucifer saw GOD , how could he try and overthrow something or someone HE did not beleive in . HE KNEW .
So, Lucifer isn't the one who said I will ascend and be like the most High, and was slapped down like lightening for it? Nor was he the author of lies against God so as to cause rebellion of a third of angels?
Knowing and believing are not the same thing. Lucifer knew who God was, but he certainly did not believe Him, else He would not have tried to overthrow Him.
When pride came into his heart, it blinded Him to believing God as God, though he knew Him and where he was to be found for overthrowing.
Believing is a bond of trusting, so much that obedience comes with it.
Knowing God and who God is, is not necessarily also believing God. Believing God is to believe what he says and prophecies and commands and teaches.
Peter knew the Lord and confessed Him as the Christ, and then turned right around and refused to believe His prophecy of the cross, nor did he even listen to Him about the following resurrection.
All His disciples were counted as unbelievers at the cross, because they did not believe Him:
1. First they did not believe His words, when He prophesied they would all forsake Him. Instead, Peter called Him a liar to His face in boasting how he would never do such a thing, thought everyone else may.
2. None of them went to the tomb to watch His resurrection, because they did not believe Him saying so. And the women only went to anoint His dead body.
The devils believe more than Adam who knew Him, because they believe Him, when He prophecies of their judgment to come.
Eve was decieved about the commandment, because Adam ministered to her false teaching, and Adam proved He did not believe God by eating of the fruit: Adam did not believe He would surely die, just by eating some fruit.
Adam talked with GOD.
And where in Scripture is that? All Scripture says is that God commanded Adam. If Adam had actually bothered talking with god, then maybe God would not have needed make a woman of his flesh for help in someone to talk to.
The problem with Adam was unthankfulness for the free gift of eternal life as a living soul, and was probably offended from the outset of not being free to eat of that one tree.
Why do people not at least confirm with Scripture something is true, before just blurting things out they think is true?
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
About this oft-repeated "unconditionally saved" thing: Nobody is claiming unconditional salvation. Nobody. Salvation is absolutely conditional, but on one thing and one thing only: the will of God the Father. This is exactly what Paul says, that "(God) says... 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion'... (s)o then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
A truly pathetic reading of Scripture.
Unconditional salvation of OSAS is the unconditional grace that covers sins, so that obedience is not necessary for salvation, while the sin goes on.
Salvation is dependent on one and one thing only: the death of Jesus on the cross, whereby God is able to have mercy upon man.
The will of the Father to save is unconditional in that He is without respect of persons: Any who believe Him shall be saved.
And eternal salvation of God is dependent on believing and obeying Him, which is whom God chooses to have mercy upon.
So, it is not dependent upon the will or 'exertion' of man, but upon the heart of the believer who obey Him for eternal salvation.
The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill.
The Scripture is not teaching about God predetermining whom He will save and whom He will not: it is teaching the justification of God to choose whom He will and Whom he will not based on the faith or disobedience of the heart.
Which is exactly why He chose David over his other brothers, who were no doubt more physically fit, which is what decieved the prophet, who learned God chooses based upon the heart, not upon sight, which is why the saints believe from the heart, and not by sight.
OSAS is doctrine of the twisted. It's permanently and thoroughly bent.
A truly pathetic reading of Scripture.
Unconditional salvation of OSAS is the unconditional grace that covers sins, so that obedience is not necessary for salvation, while the sin goes on.
Salvation is dependent on one and one thing only: the death of Jesus on the cross, whereby God is able to have mercy upon man.
The will of the Father to save is unconditional in that He is without respect of persons: Any who believe Him shall be saved.
And eternal salvation of God is dependent on believing and obeying Him, which is whom God chooses to have mercy upon.
So, it is not dependent upon the will or 'exertion' of man, but upon the heart of the believer who obey Him for eternal salvation.
The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill.
The Scripture is not teaching about God predetermining whom He will save and whom He will not: it is teaching the justification of God to choose whom He will and Whom he will not based on the faith or disobedience of the heart.
Which is exactly why He chose David over his other brothers, who were no doubt more physically fit, which is what decieved the prophet, who learned God chooses based upon the heart, not upon sight, which is why the saints believe from the heart, and not by sight.
OSAS is doctrine of the twisted. It's permanently and thoroughly bent.
This is a claim made by no one. Nobody advocates “saved” as living free to disobey without repentance. Only those that HATE the Doctrines of Grace make the claim that others believe this.
You are mistaken about what those who believe “salvation cannot be lost” claim about the need for repentance and right living.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
we still retain the "old man," as Paul refers to the sinful nature, and exhorts us to "put off the old man and put on the new" ~ sin no more. We are no different (or better) in our condition in this life than those who are not saved ~ except that we are redeemed by the blood of Christ.
And here is the grand declaration of the OSAS doctrine by the carnal minded believer.
we still retain the "old man,"
Words that condemn themselves.
We are to not retain the old man, but crucifying him on the cross we take up for Christ. The old man is dead with his sins, when we die to sin by faith and obedience to Jesus from the heart.
OSAS carries around their old man of sins on their backs for life, in a wretched doubleminded existence called salvation by faith alone.
"put off the old man and put on the new" ~ sin no more.
The commandment is now, go and sin no more. Which is not for them who have not yet crucified their old man of sin, but continue in his deeds.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
It sure is if you are claiming someone said something then you quote them or else do not use them as its just hearsay at that point and is completely and utterly meaningless. Most rumors are just that, no substance or facts.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
You are mistaken about what those who believe “salvation cannot be lost” claim about the need for repentance and right living.
Like their definition of the fear of the Lord, it is nonexistent to know, except to they give lip service to it.
OSAS has no 'need' for repentance and right living, much less repentance of all sins and living in true holiness: not for eternal salvation.
What need? Fellowship? A guaranteed eternal salvation without condition of obeying Him, but some exhortation to not live so sinful, because then they don't 'get to fellowship' with Jesus as much?
OSAS is the salvation of convenient obedience. It is a childish Christianity for the double minded.
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.
This of course is proud boasting by Paul trying to say he 'has no sin', which is anathema to OSAS.
Living unblameably is living without sins and trespasses, without sinful living, not living in sin. Walking after the Spirit only, and not after the flesh at all.
OSAS is Christian religion for 'good sinners'.
They learn to do good things, while yet retaining their old life of sin. They lay claim to charity and love of neighbor, but do not live unblameable in His sight.
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This blamelessness is not some all of a sudden magical transformation of the heart of lust and mind of sin.
In the moment and twinkling of the eye, there won't be a real quick 'dressing up white' at resurrection time: it is those confirmed of the Lord to be unblameable before Him in this life, which is the perfecting of the saints in heart, mind, soul, and body.
When the Lord shouts, it will be as a thief in the night, so that all those claiming Him while living blameably of sin and transgression shall be found naked and not clothed in white. Only them waiting and looking for Him unblameably in their mortal bodies and are changed from mortal body and mind, to immortal perfected body and mind.
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
OSAS is the devil's doctrine of both good and evil, which commands to live with blame of sin, while doing some good things too, because it is not possible to do otherwise, and anyone exhorting and doing so is proud and puffed up in their self-righteous minds, preaching the gospel of a despotic Master of slavish captives.
This is the OSAS doctrine of salvation by faith alone: do more good than before naturally, while yet retaining the old man of sin to live with in the body. Only now when they do sin, and they will, because it is not possible to go and sin no more, they do so 'graciously and sorrowfully'.
They still sin like all sinners of the world, and are like them and no 'better' than them, while being humbly thankful for 'celebratory grace', but now they really really 'hate it'.
Gag a goat.
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