Grace is the power to become

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

The whole point of my asking the question - and I do mean whole point - is to find out why you object to the term, since it is used in scripture several times in different ways, because there are several Greek words which have all been translated 'perfect' in English.

I was wondering if you are thinking of 'perfect' by a non-biblical definition - because that's the only way you could be at variance with scripture. Do you see what I mean? That if you're a believer, you are now called upon by God to use His definitions of words, and to expect His words to create faith in you which brings results which please Him. This is the reason He continues speaking to believers after they first meet Him.

For instance, here is one of the most famous places, spoken by Jesus Himself. As you read it, ask yourself whether Jesus believed it is possible to do what He commands, or, are His commands disposable if we find them inconvenient or incomprehensible? How would your employer react if you told him you hadn't carried out a named task as he directed because you had decided it didn't matter if you didn't do it. How many times do you think you could give him your own opinion about the job he'd chosen you to do, before he would start looking for someone who'd faithfully obey Him?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If Episkopos has found the way to fulfil Jesus' stated command, why does it bother you so much that it is now part of his testimony?

Why should he not obey our Lord? Any good reason?


You may remember I asked Episkopos to clarify what he meant by 'perfect' - maybe in a different thread - and he declined my invitation, drawing attention to the change of perspective which a believer should have - from a human perspective, to now seeing God's.

I remember the day it dawned on me, that true perspective (eternal perspective) comes from the Holy Spirit. And then I found that once it begins, nothing can look the same as it had before that moment. One cannot go back again.

 

[haz]

Hi dragonfly,

You could have just given me that list I asked for on what you believe we need to be perfect in. You know I'm going to keep on asking for that list....don't you?

BTW, there is no objection to the term 'perfect'.
For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified, Heb 10:14.
Christians have been perfected.

Regarding Epi, he has already said in an earlier post that he has sinned and failed God's grace.
And if you are referring to alleged 'perfect' behavior in Epi, then unfortunately his behavior here on this forum has been far from perfect.

As to your claim of perfection bothering me.......,would that be an assumption or a strawman? Just curious <_< .

Admittedly I am bothered though by Epi's attempts at undermining the faith in Christ of anyone on this public forum.

But, back to that list. Any chance you can provide it as it might help clarify discussions here better.

Thanks.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi dragonfly,

You could have just given me that list I asked for on what you believe we need to be perfect in. You know I'm going to keep on asking for that list....don't you?

BTW, there is no objection to the term 'perfect'.
For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified, Heb 10:14.
Christians have been perfected.

Regarding Epi, he has already said in an earlier post that he has sinned and failed God's grace.
And if you are referring to alleged 'perfect' behavior in Epi, then unfortunately his behavior here on this forum has been far from perfect.

As to your claim of perfection bothering me.......,would that be an assumption or a strawman? Just curious <_<.

Admittedly I am bothered though by Epi's attempts at undermining the faith in Christ of anyone on this public forum.

But, back to that list. Any chance you can provide it as it might help clarify discussions here better.

Thanks.

I am seeking to bring to light that which undermines actual faith in Christ. A short-circuit is that which redirects a signal to a premature resolution before attaining the goal. A half-gospel and half-truths are designed to kill those who receive it. The enemy seeks to dishonour God by spoiling those whom God is calling through His word. The enemy then blinds those who accept his ploys as the truth. God allows this as men seek so often to rejoice in what benefits them..rather than seek the will of God.

If I then point this out, the nature that sins and refuses to die (in these victims of lies)...then further dig their heels in to their error due to pride. Thus they become full fledged vessels of iniquity and wrath. Had they been humble and teachable these could have come to the knowledge of the truth.

I am not judging those who are spewing these false doctrines...but teachers of error will be judged more severely than simple believers of error.

The enemy preys on the immature ones that are carnal and cannot see or understand the will of God. So whatever a man cannot do in his own strength is seen as impossible and "makes salvation harder". How much more carnal a viewpoint can one have????

Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The word perfect will always get the flesh into a snit....because this standard is beyond the grasp of men posing as candidates for salvation which they have accorded themselves in the belief that salvation is easy.

Salvation is neither hard nor easy. Salvation is to do the will of God and to be pleasing to Him.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Readers will not doubt remember your apparent concern that Episkopos could claim perfection - and now you are in agreement! That's wonderful!

Regarding Epi, he has already said in an earlier post that he has sinned and failed God's grace.

First of all, Readers will remember that Episkopos started a thread called 'Falling from Grace' to discuss what that term might mean.

Readers will also remember that you introduced law-keeping to the discussion, and then used Episkopos' replies to accuse him of failing to keep the law. Then you accused him of preaching a gospel which mixed law and grace. Then it turns out you think there is no law which applies to Christians!!!

I am interested to know, therefore, if - according to the gospel of grace you preach/believe that it is impossible to fall from grace - even when one sins (because according to your gospel sin cannot be imputed to a Christian) why has it mattered so much to you to keep pointing out the admission you drew from Episkopos by your questions?

And why have you complained continuously about his claim to walk in holiness, righteousness and perfection, if not to indicate that the gospel of grace in which you believe makes no such demands upon the believer?

As to your claim of perfection bothering me.......,would that be an assumption or a strawman? Just curious <_<

You are the person who kept referring to perfection. That's why I asked. If it was a strawman, it was yours.

But, back to that list. Any chance you can provide it as it might help clarify discussions here better.

Quite a few days ago I provided the list in the Gospel of Grace thread. I'd assumed you'd seen it, understood it, and had no further comment.

I will look for the post and bring the relevant parts over here.

In adding to my earlier reply (written about five hours ago) how can you ask me if perfection is a strawman, when you began your post -

You could have just given me that list I asked for on what you believe we need to be perfect in. You know I'm going to keep on asking for that list....don't you?

The simple answer is everything.


If the reason for all your questions about law and perfection is that you don't think it's required, or you don't think it's possible, then why not say that?

Again I bring to your attention these two verses:

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

And here again are the verses I had posted with regard to laws which are relevant to Christians:

Heb 8:10, - Rom 3:27, - Rom 6:22, - Rom 8:2 - - - - Rom 8:4,

James 2:8, - John 14:15, 16, 17, 18, - John 15:12, - 1 John 5:3.


I found our discussion on p11 and p13 of Gospel of Grace (links below).

I hope we've moved on from there, but I'm interested that you didn't dispute any of the laws I brought to your attention. Is this through lack of time on your part? Or, do you now agree that these laws have a bearing on Christian life and demeanour?


If you do, then are you ready to stop claiming that Romans 4:15 applies to Christians?


And are you ready to stop claiming that there is no way sin can be imputed to a Christian?



I've brought over this one quote in which you answered a question to me.

You questioned if I had never heard of the doctrine of perfect obedience to the law in this physical life. I have heard of a similar doctrine to yours. It was from the Seventh Day Adventists.

I hope you know enough about Seventh Day Adventists to know that they believe in keeping the 10 commandments. To my knowledge, they make nothing at all of the law written on our hearts through the circumcision of Christ in the New Covenant Church, although no doubt some have received it.



Episkopos wrote in Gospel of Grace on p11

The normal state of a disciple of Christ is to be pure....as in cleansed from ALL unrighteousness. This is not a facade of righteousness but real righteousness and TRUE holiness. Those who walk in this have a witness to the truth. Those who read verses and make up a salvation scheme for themselves have an opinion but not a witness.

Episkopos' mention of 'a witness', leads me to expand on that phrase. It is to do with having 'seen' something. Unless you 'see' (an event, a revelation) you cannot be a witness to it. The very meaning of the word 'witness' excludes a person who has not 'seen'. Therefore, many Christians use Paul's prayer at the end of Ephesians 1, to invite God to give them more revelation every day.


Jesus said: '12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. (John 16)

The importance of the role of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life cannot be overstated. He makes us know the presence, the peace and rest in God, and, the power of God. But as Episkopos has said several times, we never own Him. I would add, that we can easily prevent His effectiveness by blocking our ears, looking away from the Lord, and walking in paths of unrighteousness. This is our old association with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil showing through, from which we should consciously steer ourselves away, choosing rather to eat from the tree of life.


This is why it is important to come to the Lord at the beginning, with the clear understanding that sin created a barrier between God and man, and it will be a barrier between God and Christians if we continue in sin.

Upon this single fact do the reasonings of the apostles depend in all their epistles. Therefore, it is pure imagination for a Christian to 'think' he can do his own will rather than God's.

Jesus Christ was revealed to us as the sinless Son of God - the Lamb of God - (that means He was without blemish of any kind) to show us that a man can obey God perfectly when free from the power of sin.


On the cross, when Jesus broke the power of sin so that we could enter into His life through the Holy Spirit, it was implicit in God's mind that those who attempted to enter into His life by faith, would also intend to live free from sin - by faith.

The good news that it's now possible to live free from sin, is the gospel. This is the key to eternal life.

The idea that although it's possible, it's not mandatory, has not come from scripture. It's a modern myth, as is the idea that it's not possible to live free from sin. Both are lies.

 

[us2are1]

Grace is an open invitation and open Gate to the path that leads to salvation.

 

[Episkopos]

Grace is an open invitation and open Gate to the path that leads to salvation.

Perfect!!!!

 

[Axehead]

Yes, exactly! An invitation to be chosen, for "many are called but few are chosen".

Colossians 1:21-24
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

IF, IF, IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH...

Axehead

 

[haz]

Hi haz,

Readers will not doubt remember your apparent concern that Episkopos could claim perfection - and now you are in agreement! That's wonderful!



First of all, Readers will remember that Episkopos started a thread called 'Falling from Grace' to discuss what that term might mean.

Readers will also remember that you introduced law-keeping to the discussion, and then used Episkopos' replies to accuse him of failing to keep the law. Then you accused him of preaching a gospel which mixed law and grace. Then it turns out you think there is no law which applies to Christians!!!

I am interested to know, therefore, if - according to the gospel of grace you preach/believe that it is impossible to fall from grace - even when one sins (because according to your gospel sin cannot be imputed to a Christian) why has it mattered so much to you to keep pointing out the admission you drew from Episkopos by your questions?

And why have you complained continuously about his claim to walk in holiness, righteousness and perfection, if not to indicate that the gospel of grace in which you believe makes no such demands upon the believer?



You are the person who kept referring to perfection. That's why I asked. If it was a strawman, it was yours.



Quite a few days ago I provided the list in the Gospel of Grace thread. I'd assumed you'd seen it, understood it, and had no further comment.

I will look for the post and bring the relevant parts over here.

In adding to my earlier reply (written about five hours ago) how can you ask me if perfection is a strawman, when you began your post -



The simple answer is everything.


If the reason for all your questions about law and perfection is that you don't think it's required, or you don't think it's possible, then why not say that?

Again I bring to your attention these two verses:

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

And here again are the verses I had posted with regard to laws which are relevant to Christians:

Heb 8:10, - Rom 3:27, - Rom 6:22, - Rom 8:2 - - - - Rom 8:4,

James 2:8, - John 14:15, 16, 17, 18, - John 15:12, - 1 John 5:3.


I found our discussion on p11 and p13 of Gospel of Grace (links below).

I hope we've moved on from there, but I'm interested that you didn't dispute any of the laws I brought to your attention. Is this through lack of time on your part? Or, do you now agree that these laws have a bearing on Christian life and demeanour?


If you do, then are you ready to stop claiming that Romans 4:15 applies to Christians?


And are you ready to stop claiming that there is no way sin can be imputed to a Christian?



I've brought over this one quote in which you answered a question to me.



I hope you know enough about Seventh Day Adventists to know that they believe in keeping the 10 commandments. To my knowledge, they make nothing at all of the law written on our hearts through the circumcision of Christ in the New Covenant Church, although no doubt some have received it.



Episkopos wrote in Gospel of Grace on p11


Episkopos' mention of 'a witness', leads me to expand on that phrase. It is to do with having 'seen' something. Unless you 'see' (an event, a revelation) you cannot be a witness to it. The very meaning of the word 'witness' excludes a person who has not 'seen'. Therefore, many Christians use Paul's prayer at the end of Ephesians 1, to invite God to give them more revelation every day.


Jesus said: '12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. (John 16)

The importance of the role of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life cannot be overstated. He makes us know the presence, the peace and rest in God, and, the power of God. But as Episkopos has said several times, we never own Him. I would add, that we can easily prevent His effectiveness by blocking our ears, looking away from the Lord, and walking in paths of unrighteousness. This is our old association with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil showing through, from which we should consciously steer ourselves away, choosing rather to eat from the tree of life.


This is why it is important to come to the Lord at the beginning, with the clear understanding that sin created a barrier between God and man, and it will be a barrier between God and Christians if we continue in sin.

Upon this single fact do the reasonings of the apostles depend in all their epistles. Therefore, it is pure imagination for a Christian to 'think' he can do his own will rather than God's.

Jesus Christ was revealed to us as the sinless Son of God - the Lamb of God - (that means He was without blemish of any kind) to show us that a man can obey God perfectly when free from the power of sin.


On the cross, when Jesus broke the power of sin so that we could enter into His life through the Holy Spirit, it was implicit in God's mind that those who attempted to enter into His life by faith, would also intend to live free from sin - by faith.

The good news that it's now possible to live free from sin, is the gospel. This is the key to eternal life.

The idea that although it's possible, it's not mandatory, has not come from scripture. It's a modern myth, as is the idea that it's not possible to live free from sin. Both are lies.

Hi dragonfly,

Sorry for my delay in answering. As I’ve mentioned before I don’t have a lot of time here and your long posts with so many points/questions takes time to respond to. In addition it’s winter here and I’m one of the many here who have caught a bad cold. Hopefully my post will be comprehensible enough in spite of this.

There’s no point you and I going around in circles about who is obsessing about “perfection”. But, any readers who have been following these discussions will know that I’ve always been confronting Epi because he has been challenging bloggers here claiming they are unsaved unless they follow his gospel of perfection in the flesh, without which the result is death. My part on this merry-go-round has been to challenge Epi’s false gospel.

BTW, your claim that ‘now’ I agree that we are perfected, is incorrect. I always believed Christians were perfected by Christ’s one offering (Heb 10:14). BUT, we differ on how we both see perfection being attained.

Regarding your reference to Epi’s early posts in my discussions with him, readers will recall how Epi’s posts were described by various bloggers here in similar terms (examples: “Obfuscated”, “ambiguous’, “complicated” ). For Epi to use such methods (no doubt deliberate), is it any wonder the debate took so many angles. Your assessment of my responses to Epi completely ignores Epi’s deliberate “obfuscation”. Such bias discredits your point.

Now…to that question whether a Christian can fail God’s grace.

Here’s a warning in scripture about it. Heb 12:15,16
'looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.'

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus John 16:9

The fornicator is one who turns back to self-righteous works, which is unbelief.

Example Gal 2:18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Epi and I agree in the claim that the soul that sins it shall die. But we both differ in understanding as to what is sin. For Epi it’s an imperfect lifestyle. My understanding is it’s unbelief in Jesus.

Regarding Epi’s admission that he sins and your concern as to why I make issue about this?
Epi has sought to undermine the faith of believers here with his gospel of works. Works of perfection that neither he, nor Prentis, nor you and Axehead have attained to (Whitstone claims he’s done it but his behavior here shows otherwise). And this gospel you guys share declares that condemnation/death is the result for failure to attain perfection in the flesh.

This gospel of yours is no different to the law of sin and death. Condemnation and death. Your gospel demands physical proof of continually walking in “holiness, righteousness and perfection” in lifestyle/behavior.

But in Christ there is no condemnation/death. There was no physical proof of a perfect lifestyle in the thief on the cross, yet he was saved.

The gospel according to Epi differs greatly from the gospel of Christ.

Regarding the laws Christians are under?

Agreed. Christians are under the law of faith (Rom 3:27), law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:2). Also John 15:12.
James 1:25 and 2:12 speaks also of the law of liberty.
Also Christians keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. Believe on Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23

BUT, can you clarify what you understand about laws referred to in the following scriptures you quoted.
Heb 8:10, Rom 6:22, Rom 8:4, John 14:15-18, 1John 5:3

And the law of righteousness (aka law of sin and death, 10 commandments)?
We are not under this law for righteousness. “Christ is the end of the law, for righteousness to everyone that believes”, Rom 10:4. Our righteousness is in Christ. Imputed.
And, our works are to believe on Jesus, (John 6:29)

The false gospel the likes of Epi preaches here is unbelief/sin.

 

[us2are1]

Yes, exactly! An invitation to be chosen, for "many are called but few are chosen".

Colossians 1:21-24
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

IF, IF, IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH...

Axehead

Amen Axehead

here are some scriptures that tell the story further.


Romans 13:11 NKJV

And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]salvation [/background]is nearer than when we first believed.


Philippians 2:12 NKJV

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,work out your own [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]salvation[/background] with fear and trembling;



1 Peter 1:5 NKJV

who are kept by the power of God through faith for [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]salvation[/background] ready to be revealed in the last time.


1 Peter 1:9 NKJV

receiving the end of your faith--the [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]salvation[/background] of your souls.


2 Peter 3:15 NKJV

and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]salvation[/background]--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,


Matthew 10:22 NKJV

And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]saved[/background].


Mark 13:13 NKJV

And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]saved[/background].


1 Corinthians 1:18 NKJV

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being[background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]saved[/background] it is the power of God.


1 Corinthians 15:2 NKJV

by which also you are [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]saved[/background], if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi dragonfly,

Sorry for my delay in answering. As I’ve mentioned before I don’t have a lot of time here and your long posts with so many points/questions takes time to respond to. In addition it’s winter here and I’m one of the many here who have caught a bad cold. Hopefully my post will be comprehensible enough in spite of this.

There’s no point you and I going around in circles about who is obsessing about “perfection”. But, any readers who have been following these discussions will know that I’ve always been confronting Epi because he has been challenging bloggers here claiming they are unsaved unless they follow his gospel of perfection in the flesh, without which the result is death. My part on this merry-go-round has been to challenge Epi’s false gospel.

BTW, your claim that ‘now’ I agree that we are perfected, is incorrect. I always believed Christians were perfected by Christ’s one offering (Heb 10:14). BUT, we differ on how we both see perfection being attained.

Regarding your reference to Epi’s early posts in my discussions with him, readers will recall how Epi’s posts were described by various bloggers here in similar terms (examples: “Obfuscated”, “ambiguous’, “complicated” ). For Epi to use such methods (no doubt deliberate), is it any wonder the debate took so many angles. Your assessment of my responses to Epi completely ignores Epi’s deliberate “obfuscation”. Such bias discredits your point.

Now…to that question whether a Christian can fail God’s grace.

Here’s a warning in scripture about it. Heb 12:15,16
'looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.'

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus John 16:9

The fornicator is one who turns back to self-righteous works, which is unbelief.

Example Gal 2:18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Epi and I agree in the claim that the soul that sins it shall die. But we both differ in understanding as to what is sin. For Epi it’s an imperfect lifestyle. My understanding is it’s unbelief in Jesus.

Regarding Epi’s admission that he sins and your concern as to why I make issue about this?
Epi has sought to undermine the faith of believers here with his gospel of works. Works of perfection that neither he, nor Prentis, nor you and Axehead have attained to (Whitstone claims he’s done it but his behavior here shows otherwise). And this gospel you guys share declares that condemnation/death is the result for failure to attain perfection in the flesh.

This gospel of yours is no different to the law of sin and death. Condemnation and death. Your gospel demands physical proof of continually walking in “holiness, righteousness and perfection” in lifestyle/behavior.

But in Christ there is no condemnation/death. There was no physical proof of a perfect lifestyle in the thief on the cross, yet he was saved.

The gospel according to Epi differs greatly from the gospel of Christ.

Regarding the laws Christians are under?

Agreed. Christians are under the law of faith (Rom 3:27), law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:2). Also John 15:12.
James 1:25 and 2:12 speaks also of the law of liberty.
Also Christians keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. Believe on Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23

BUT, can you clarify what you understand about laws referred to in the following scriptures you quoted.
Heb 8:10, Rom 6:22, Rom 8:4, John 14:15-18, 1John 5:3

And the law of righteousness (aka law of sin and death, 10 commandments)?
We are not under this law for righteousness. “Christ is the end of the law, for righteousness to everyone that believes”, Rom 10:4. Our righteousness is in Christ. Imputed.
And, our works are to believe on Jesus, (John 6:29)

The false gospel the likes of Epi preaches here is unbelief/sin.

I must be on Haz's ignore list because he keeps repeating the same untrue accusations. But, hey, some people are just driving through the ruts that are already present in their minds...and refuse any push to get out of them.

 

[whitestone]

I must be on Haz's ignore list because he keeps repeating the same untrue accusations. But, hey, some people are just driving through the ruts that are already present in their minds...and refuse any push to get out of them.

Don't worry Epi

I've been keeping up here and you are beyond reproach of the false accuser. The enemy to the Gospel has also shown many other dispicable traits in their mis-speaking and mis-handling scriptures.

Sorry Haz, I just call it as I see it in the Spirit of Christ. You really need to lay a hand on your mouth and open your eyes and ears you have very little clue of the things of the Lord. Axe and Epi and others here are ones in whom you should put great energy to listen to and understand. Their words are filled with the insight and wisdom of Christ, and you pridefully walk right over the top of their words as though your words mean something and theirs don't, the exact opposite of what is actual. It is a strong delusion to overcome but Christ in you can do it if you humble yourself and ASK HIM to COME into you and then let Him heal your eyes and ears.

Peace

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,
Sorry to hear about your cold. I hope you feel better soon.

The questions I write to you are genuine attempts to divide issues and find out how you see them.

BTW, your claim that ‘now’ I agree that we are perfected, is incorrect. I always believed Christians were perfected by Christ’s one offering (Heb 10:14). BUT, we differ on how we both see perfection being attained.

As I see it, there is more than one area of our beings to be concerned about. Yes, in the Spirit, we have been completed by Christ's perfect sacrifice which has been accepted in heaven on our behalf. But that does not let us off the hook with regard to sin.

I know you're keen to get away from the Mosaic Law, but as a foundation for understanding how to define sin, it is essential. That is what God gave it for - to help us get the shape of what He abhors, as well as the attitudes He promotes and wants to see us promote. If we do not have at least a thumbnail sketch of this - which the NT provides in various places, such as chapters 12 - 14 of Romans (There are others, too.) then we will be prone to do what we used to do rather than what God desires us to do. It was different if you'd been brought up as an Israelite, because you knew the Mosaic Law from childhood. But, there were sins which could not be forgiven or covered under the Mosaic Law, and that's why the blood of Jesus Christ is precious to us who believe in the New Covenant era.

I'm not saying that every sin will be forgiven, but, in coming to the Lord having been ignorant of His standards previously, yes, we can be forgiven anything and everything. But from then on, we are expected to know better, just as any parent would with a child. Acts 17:30, 31. So, I'm talking about the renewing of the mind, here, the strengthening of the inner man, and how Christ's life should be outworked through the power of the resurrection as we experience it while we are still in these 'perishing' bodies. 2 Corinthians 4:16, Ephesians 3:16, Romans 8:11.

Lastly, there will be the resurrection of our bodies. Dan 12:2, John 5:29, John 11:25, Acts 24:15, Phil 3:11

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection
from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

For those who have understood the need to be baptised into Christ's death, there is now no barrier to living out their lives according to the power of His Spirit - necessarily forsaking sin with a whole heart.

Is this what you believe? (I know you're busy. A yes or no will do. )

Regarding your reference to Epi’s early posts in my discussions with him, readers will recall how Epi’s posts were described by various bloggers here in similar terms (examples: “Obfuscated”, “ambiguous’, “complicated” ). For Epi to use such methods (no doubt deliberate), is it any wonder the debate took so many angles. Your assessment of my responses to Epi completely ignores Epi’s deliberate “obfuscation”. Such bias discredits your point.

Do you not yet understand that if you can't 'see' Episkopos' meaning, you actually need revelation from the Lord, not from me? I have done more to explain Pauline doctrine to you than Ek has done, and you don't follow it. That is because you need God to open your spiritual eyes to truths with which you are as yet unfamiliar. This is nothing to be ashamed of. I am regularly surprised by new truth that I never saw before. The truth about victory over sin eluded me for years. I couldn't even get a working definition of sin, my needs were so interwoven. But they were not beyond the help of God, and it was to Him that I looked, and upon Him that I waited. And He came to me time and again with tiny pieces of revelation which enabled me to move forward. This is no exaggeration. There is hope for you!




To be continued - it was getting a bit to long to post all at once.

 

[haz]

Hi haz,
Sorry to hear about your cold. I hope you feel better soon.

The questions I write to you are genuine attempts to divide issues and find out how you see them.

[/font][/font][/size]

As I see it, there is more than one area of our beings to be concerned about. Yes, in the Spirit, we have been completed by Christ's perfect sacrifice which has been accepted in heaven on our behalf. But that does not let us off the hook with regard to sin.

I know you're keen to get away from the Mosaic Law, but as a foundation for understanding how to define sin, it is essential. That is what God gave it for - to help us get the shape of what He abhors, as well as the attitudes He promotes and wants to see us promote. If we do not have at least a thumbnail sketch of this - which the NT provides in various places, such as chapters 12 - 14 of Romans (There are others, too.) then we will be prone to do what we used to do rather than what God desires us to do. It was different if you'd been brought up as an Israelite, because you knew the Mosaic Law from childhood. But, there were sins which could not be forgiven or covered under the Mosaic Law, and that's why the blood of Jesus Christ is precious to us who believe in the New Covenant era.

I'm not saying that every sin will be forgiven, but, in coming to the Lord having been ignorant of His standards previously, yes, we can be forgiven anything and everything. But from then on, we are expected to know better, just as any parent would with a child. Acts 17:30, 31. So, I'm talking about the renewing of the mind, here, the strengthening of the inner man, and how Christ's life should be outworked through the power of the resurrection as we experience it while we are still in these 'perishing' bodies. 2 Corinthians 4:16, Ephesians 3:16, Romans 8:11.

Lastly, there will be the resurrection of our bodies. Dan 12:2, John 5:29, John 11:25, Acts 24:15, Phil 3:11

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection
from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

For those who have understood the need to be baptised into Christ's death, there is now no barrier to living out their lives according to the power of His Spirit - necessarily forsaking sin with a whole heart.

Is this what you believe? (I know you're busy. A yes or no will do. )


[/font][/font][/size]

Do you not yet understand that if you can't 'see' Episkopos' meaning, you actually need revelation from the Lord, not from me? I have done more to explain Pauline doctrine to you than Ek has done, and you don't follow it. That is because you need God to open your spiritual eyes to truths with which you are as yet unfamiliar. This is nothing to be ashamed of. I am regularly surprised by new truth that I never saw before. The truth about victory over sin eluded me for years. I couldn't even get a working definition of sin, my needs were so interwoven. But they were not beyond the help of God, and it was to Him that I looked, and upon Him that I waited. And He came to me time and again with tiny pieces of revelation which enabled me to move forward. This is no exaggeration. There is hope for you!




To be continued - it was getting a bit to long to post all at once.

Hi dragonfly,

Thanks for the sympathy regards my cold, but really, my concern was that with the headaches and clogged head I have, whether I was getting worse at getting my message across and/or comprehending yours. Hopefully not. Forums are difficult enough to get a message across at the best of times without any added difficulties.

I'm keen to get away from the law (as you say) for good reason. The law of sin and death is exactly that. Transgression (even if just one offence, James 2:10) results in death. It is about establishing righteousness by self-works instead of by faith (Rom 9:32).

Christians are now under a more glorious ministry of the Spirit/Righteousness (2Cor 3:7-11).

Yes, we agree, that with Christ in believers sin has finally been dealt with (although we define sin differently). Our old man has been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6). Our body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10). We are dead and our lives are hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3).

And now we are to: 'put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.[sup] [/sup]Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience', Col 3:5

This is all SPIRITUAL.
These things we put to death are self-righteous works (SPIRITUAL fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, covetousness).
Any who humble themselves turning to Christ (submitting to God's righteousness) and remaining in Christ believing God's promise, until the end, have put these things to death.

But sadly we see the flesh take control in some, eager to judge righteousness by works of a perfect lifestyle in the flesh. This is fornication resulting in uncleanness. It is worldly passion, evil desire and covetousness against God. It is carnally minded.

But importantly now, in this spiritual relationship believers are in, we realise that any SPIRITUAL fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, covetousness, results in death if continued. Hence we put them to death.
The thief on the cross repented of his going his own way, without God. He stopped his SPIRITUAL fornication/uncleanness/passion/evil desire/covetousness and submitted to God's righteousness.

In a small regard your message has some validity, except that it focuses wrongly on the physical lifestyle. By judging the physical that way all will be condemned. BUT, now that it is dead (crucified with Christ), we should see each other as a new spiritual creation, in spiritual relationship with God. So we should encourage each other to build up each others faith (not undermine it by judging righteousness by a perfect physical lifestyle).

I don't know how clear I've made this considering the clogged up state I'm in with this cold. Hopefully it's clarifies things better rather than creating confusion.

 

[whitestone]

Hi haz,
Sorry to hear about your cold. I hope you feel better soon.

The questions I write to you are genuine attempts to divide issues and find out how you see them.

[/font][/font][/size]

As I see it, there is more than one area of our beings to be concerned about. Yes, in the Spirit, we have been completed by Christ's perfect sacrifice which has been accepted in heaven on our behalf. But that does not let us off the hook with regard to sin.

I know you're keen to get away from the Mosaic Law, but as a foundation for understanding how to define sin, it is essential. That is what God gave it for - to help us get the shape of what He abhors, as well as the attitudes He promotes and wants to see us promote. If we do not have at least a thumbnail sketch of this - which the NT provides in various places, such as chapters 12 - 14 of Romans (There are others, too.) then we will be prone to do what we used to do rather than what God desires us to do. It was different if you'd been brought up as an Israelite, because you knew the Mosaic Law from childhood. But, there were sins which could not be forgiven or covered under the Mosaic Law, and that's why the blood of Jesus Christ is precious to us who believe in the New Covenant era.

I'm not saying that every sin will be forgiven, but, in coming to the Lord having been ignorant of His standards previously, yes, we can be forgiven anything and everything. But from then on, we are expected to know better, just as any parent would with a child. Acts 17:30, 31. So, I'm talking about the renewing of the mind, here, the strengthening of the inner man, and how Christ's life should be outworked through the power of the resurrection as we experience it while we are still in these 'perishing' bodies. 2 Corinthians 4:16, Ephesians 3:16, Romans 8:11.

Lastly, there will be the resurrection of our bodies. Dan 12:2, John 5:29, John 11:25, Acts 24:15, Phil 3:11

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection
from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

For those who have understood the need to be baptised into Christ's death, there is now no barrier to living out their lives according to the power of His Spirit - necessarily forsaking sin with a whole heart.

Is this what you believe? (I know you're busy. A yes or no will do. )


[/font][/font][/size]

Do you not yet understand that if you can't 'see' Episkopos' meaning, you actually need revelation from the Lord, not from me? I have done more to explain Pauline doctrine to you than Ek has done, and you don't follow it. That is because you need God to open your spiritual eyes to truths with which you are as yet unfamiliar. This is nothing to be ashamed of. I am regularly surprised by new truth that I never saw before. The truth about victory over sin eluded me for years. I couldn't even get a working definition of sin, my needs were so interwoven. But they were not beyond the help of God, and it was to Him that I looked, and upon Him that I waited. And He came to me time and again with tiny pieces of revelation which enabled me to move forward. This is no exaggeration. There is hope for you!

To be continued - it was getting a bit to long to post all at once.

That's right Dfly. It is as a little bit of yeast folded into the dough, that gradually, eventually fills the entire lump into a new transformed creation entirely. Just like Jesus says

 

[haz]

I must be on Haz's ignore list because he keeps repeating the same untrue accusations. But, hey, some people are just driving through the ruts that are already present in their minds...and refuse any push to get out of them.

Hi Epi and whitestone,

My 2 misguided friends. ^_^

Sorry Epi, I haven't been deliberately ignoring you. I did notice you agitating from the sidelines but you weren't offering any serious debate and I was too busy replying to dragonfly's long posts anyway. I will try to respond sometime.

Whitestone, I pray that God will bring you to a place where you will be able to humble yourself to Him so that He can open your eyes to be able to see spiritually.

 

[Axehead]

Hi dragonfly,

Thanks for the sympathy regards my cold, but really, my concern was that with the headaches and clogged head I have, whether I was getting worse at getting my message across and/or comprehending yours. Hopefully not. Forums are difficult enough to get a message across at the best of times without any added difficulties.

I'm keen to get away from the law (as you say) for good reason. The law of sin and death is exactly that. Transgression (even if just one offence, James 2:10) results in death. It is about establishing righteousness by self-works instead of by faith (Rom 9:32).

Christians are now under a more glorious ministry of the Spirit/Righteousness (2Cor 3:7-11).

Yes, we agree, that with Christ in believers sin has finally been dealt with (although we define sin differently). Our old man has been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6). Our body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10). We are dead and our lives are hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3).

And now we are to: 'put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.[sup] [/sup]Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience', Col 3:5

This is all SPIRITUAL.
These things we put to death are self-righteous works (SPIRITUAL fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, covetousness).
Any who humble themselves turning to Christ (submitting to God's righteousness) and remaining in Christ believing God's promise, until the end, have put these things to death.

But sadly we see the flesh take control in some, eager to judge righteousness by works of a perfect lifestyle in the flesh. This is fornication resulting in uncleanness. It is worldly passion, evil desire and covetousness against God. It is carnally minded.

But importantly now, in this spiritual relationship believers are in, we realise that any SPIRITUAL fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, covetousness, results in death if continued. Hence we put them to death.
The thief on the cross repented of his going his own way, without God. He stopped his SPIRITUAL fornication/uncleanness/passion/evil desire/covetousness and submitted to God's righteousness.

In a small regard your message has some validity, except that it focuses wrongly on the physical lifestyle. By judging the physical that way all will be condemned. BUT, now that it is dead (crucified with Christ), we should see each other as a new spiritual creation, in spiritual relationship with God. So we should encourage each other to build up each others faith (not undermine it by judging righteousness by a perfect physical lifestyle).

I don't know how clear I've made this considering the clogged up state I'm in with this cold. Hopefully it's clarifies things better rather than creating confusion.

Ok, Haz I think I understand. I asked you in the Gospel of Grace to explain what you mean that "our body" is dead and now physical sins are not counted against us. You think all sin is spiritual now.

Sin, my friend, is anything that is not of God's character and nature. Physical fornication and adultery is not of God. Are you trying to justify some physical thing that you are engaged in ?

Axehead

 

[haz]

Ok, Haz I think I understand. I asked you in the Gospel of Grace to explain what you mean that "our body" is dead and now physical sins are not counted against us. You think all sin is spiritual now.

Sin, my friend, is anything that is not of God's character and nature. Physical fornication and adultery is not of God. Are you trying to justify some physical thing that you are engaged in ?

Axehead

Huh !!?? :huh: How would you construe that I'm trying to justify doing wrong in the physical?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised really as those who judge righteousness by physical works of perfection in lifestyle often argue the strawman point that grace is seen by their opponents as a licence to do wrong.

Just to clarify for you, NO, I'm not justifying wrong behavior in the flesh. I thought I had made that clear in my prevoius posts. I suggest reading them again.

But, if you want to be judged according to your physical perfection then you do so to your own detriment.

Myself, I'm glad my body is dead (Rom 8:10), having been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).

And the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 6:29.

Better put that old man to death, and believe on Jesus.

 

[Axehead]

Huh !!?? :huh: How would you construe that I'm trying to justify doing wrong in the physical?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised really as those who judge righteousness by physical works of perfection in lifestyle often argue the strawman point that grace is seen by their opponents as a licence to do wrong.

Just to clarify for you, NO, I'm not justifying wrong behavior in the flesh. I thought I had made that clear in my prevoius posts. I suggest reading them again.

But, if you want to be judged according to your physical perfection then you do so to your own detriment.

Myself, I'm glad my body is dead (Rom 8:10), having been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).

And the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 6:29.

Better put that old man to death, and believe on Jesus.

I did not construe, I asked you. It is simple deduction. You seem to think that the only sin that is sin is "spiritual sin" and that it has no manifestation in the physical realm.

So, then you believe that physical fornication and adultery is SIN? Yes or No.

Thanks,
Axehead

 

[haz]

I did not construe, I asked you. It is simple deduction. You seem to think that the only sin that is sin is "spiritual sin" and that it has no manifestation in the physical realm.

So, then you believe that physical fornication and adultery is SIN? Yes or No.

Thanks,
Axehead

Hi Axehead,

True, you did pose it as a question. My apologies.

Physical fornication/adultery is sin.
Any Christian doing wrong will not profit by it. Whether it be adultery or even a little white lie.

But for Christians, the physical is DEAD because of sin. It was crucified with Christ.
So how can it be judged of sin and face the death penalty again when it has already died?

If your body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10) why are you STILL judging it by it's works?
Your gospel resurrects the old man to be judged by it's works. This leads to death.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Here is the rest of my reply to your previous post. Later, I shall address your replies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

Now…to that question whether a Christian can fail God’s grace.

Here’s a warning in scripture about it. Heb 12:15,16
'looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.'

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus John 16:9

The fornicator is one who turns back to self-righteous works, which is unbelief.

Example Gal 2:18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 3:3Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?



Epi and I agree in the claim that the soul that sins it shall die. But we both differ in understanding as to what is sin. For Epi it’s an imperfect lifestyle. My understanding is it’s unbelief in Jesus.

On all the points you've mentioned, there is much more BIble study to be assimilated into your grasp of the breadth of the issues. Unbelief isn't the only sin. That is clear from Paul's lists of the sins of the flesh in Romans 1, Galatians 5 and 1 Corinthians 6 - and there are other lists in the shorter epistles - including the effects of wrong attitudes to truth. If you merely roll all those up under unbelief, it's little wonder you want to extend grace to yourself to cover the meaning of many other kinds of shortcoming - none of which is necessary if you walk in the fulness of truth.

Regarding Epi’s admission that he sins and your concern as to why I make issue about this?
Epi has sought to undermine the faith of believers here with his gospel of works. Works of perfection that neither he, nor Prentis, nor you and Axehead have attained to (Whitstone claims he’s done it but his behavior here shows otherwise). And this gospel you guys share declares that condemnation/death is the result for failure to attain perfection in the flesh.

Ek has not 'sought to undermine the faith of believers'. He has sought to warn you that what you're believing falls far short of the full gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. You may carry on believing as you prefer, of course, but you are way off getting a handle on the power of an endless life which is made available to us now through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You appear to have no idea of the facts. Jesus Christ gave His all for you. He has every right to the whole of your life from the moment you first believed (and before) for the rest of eternity. And that claim is the minimum we should acknowledge. What Ek is concerned about is, that you (and others) will die (and after that the judgment Heb 9:27) and you will not be raised to eternal life, because the offer of salvation you've heard to date, is not enough to save you. Read Psa 22 as an account of what was going through Jesus' mind on the cross. Right up until v 21, there is anguish, then there is a complete change of tone into victory. He was grappling with Satan there. He beat Satan there. He gives you (free gift) the victory over all sin - but you have to take it and walk in it.

This gospel of yours is no different to the law of sin and death. Condemnation and death.

That's the way it appears, because you are the legalist amongst us, thinking that the perfection is attained by what 'we' 'do' 'in the flesh'. You still don't see that we are given our bodies as a vehicle for the Holy Spirit to enable us (by God's grace) to live like Jesus lived through His body. These are the works of righteousness which are by faith, not 'the law'. Whether you realise it or not, you are still on the self-effort bandwagon. That's why 'the gospel of grace' which you've heard is so appealing. It makes little demand on you except belief in the name of Jesus. Your gospel is so far removed from the gospel in the NT, its more a gospel of another Jesus. And don't be mistaken... there are spirits that go along with that gospel, because sin and the flesh are not dealt the death blow by it, which would release you into the life of God. When we die - that fiery baptism of which Jesus told His disciples - we will finally be free of the fallen physical side of 'our old man', Romans 6:6, and we will receive an incorruptible body. Till then, we have to treat the issues which arise from our fallen body, extremely seriously; not ignore the solution which God has provided.

I don't say these things to discourage you. It may be that you have indeed received the incorruptible seed. But the only way forward is to keep pulling your life into line with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. What you post here, sincerely as you do, does not tie up properly with the beliefs of the historical Christian faith.

And the law of righteousness (aka law of sin and death, 10 commandments)?

I don't believe either the 10 commandments or the law of righteousness 'aka' the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death can be teased out a little. The law of sin, is the spiritual corruption of our beings which occurred when Adam sinned - Rom 5:12 - by which mankind became subject to death also. I recommend you find Young's Literal Translation online, and read Rom 5 - 8 in it, because he shows every place that 'sin' is a noun - the power of sin. It is then easier to see that when we 'do' sin - the active verb - it is the outworking of that power of sin in us which Jesus conquered on the cross for us.

Let's look at the verses around the one you quoted. Romans 9 -

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.

Put this together with 1 Corinthians 9:20a And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews
to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

It seems to me that Paul well understood that keeping the law was external - it didn't change a man's heart - but he felt free to join in with those customs so as to be able to share about Jesus Messiah with Jews who had never heard of Him. I believe this is what he's getting at - because as the Jews in Romans 9:31 and 32, they were trying to be counted righteous with God by keeping 'the law' which could not change their hearts. Way back in Deuteronomy, God had complained about the 'stiff-necked' children of Israel and even from then began inviting them to have their hearts circumcised. I think He was telling them something, rather than expecting them to 'have their hearts circumcised' at that time. But again, it is the gospel that we can have a profound change of heart through the circumcision of Jesus Christ. This change of heart (attitude) is what enables us through Christ, to be able to 'keep' 'the law of righteousness'.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead.

Christ is the stumblingstone.


Luke 20:18 Whoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken;

but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. ​

​

​

1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men,

but chosen of God, [and] precious, ​

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,

acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. ​

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious:

and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. ​

7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient,

the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, ​

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word,

being disobedient... '


​