Grace is the power to become

[Episkopos]

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Grace is the power to become sons of God...but it is not the becoming itself. It must be walked in. The biggest miscalculation to to claim something you haven't yet attained...like counting your chirckesns before they are hatched.

Receiving grace is but the first step.

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


What is this process that people call "sanctification". (which they see as optional)

It is death before life.

Many cite the thief on the cross to show how "easy" it is to know Jesus Christ. But they forget that the thief DIED with Jesus. So we must also be crucified with Christ in order to be raised with Him....THAT is how you KNOW Jesus. You DIE with Him.

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Php_3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;


Why does Jesus say...go away I never knew you...???

It is because it is iniquity to claim to be His without ever having made room for Him by being conformed to His death and emptying!!!

You cannot fill a cup that is already full....the cup must first LOSE it's previous content. Likewise a computer cannot have 2 operating systems...one must be taken away first before the other can be installed.

So it is with Christ. We must be emptied in order to be filled.

The body of the flesh must be done away with in order to have Christ actually live through you. The cross is an instrument of death. We follow Jesus through His cross by bearing our own.

2Co_4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.


This is the cost of knowing Jesus....losing our lives for Him to make HIM manifest in this world.


Mar_8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

So all the claiming to be saved that people do these days...claiming to know Him because of their claims where one can actually know Him if one is prepared to pay the cost.

But salvation is free they say....Well yes it is freely given but it will cost you everything to walk in it and know Jesus Christ.

This is why the gate is so narrow and the way is also narrow. How many who profess Christ are actually known of Him???? Few indeed.

2Pe_1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Be wise not smug...watch and pray don't sleep...don't presume anything but seek. MANY are called but few are chosen

 

[dragonfly]

I had John 1:12 in mind today, too. Very good!!!

Psalm 7:13a He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death...'


Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,

ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ​

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death:

because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. ​

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face,

for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: ​

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad;

moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: ​

​

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,

neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. ​

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;

thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. ​

 

[haz]

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Grace is the power to become sons of God...but it is not the becoming itself. It must be walked in. The biggest miscalculation to to claim something you haven't yet attained...like counting your chirckesns before they are hatched.

Receiving grace is but the first step.

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


What is this process that people call "sanctification". (which they see as optional)

It is death before life.

Many cite the thief on the cross to show how "easy" it is to know Jesus Christ. But they forget that the thief DIED with Jesus. So we must also be crucified with Christ in order to be raised with Him....THAT is how you KNOW Jesus. You DIE with Him.

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Php_3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;


Why does Jesus say...go away I never knew you...???

It is because it is iniquity to claim to be His without ever having made room for Him by being conformed to His death and emptying!!!

You cannot fill a cup that is already full....the cup must first LOSE it's previous content. Likewise a computer cannot have 2 operating systems...one must be taken away first before the other can be installed.

So it is with Christ. We must be emptied in order to be filled.

The body of the flesh must be done away with in order to have Christ actually live through you. The cross is an instrument of death. We follow Jesus through His cross by bearing our own.

2Co_4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.


This is the cost of knowing Jesus....losing our lives for Him to make HIM manifest in this world.


Mar_8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

So all the claiming to be saved that people do these days...claiming to know Him because of their claims where one can actually know Him if one is prepared to pay the cost.

But salvation is free they say....Well yes it is freely given but it will cost you everything to walk in it and know Jesus Christ.

This is why the gate is so narrow and the way is also narrow. How many who profess Christ are actually known of Him???? Few indeed.

2Pe_1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Be wise not smug...watch and pray don't sleep...don't presume anything but seek. MANY are called but few are chosen

Hi Epi,

You are incorrect claiming that only a perfect lifestyle/behavior shows whether one is really saved or not.

So what does scripture say?

1John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

1John 3:2
Beloved, NOW we are children of God;

Gal 3:26,27
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [sup] [/sup]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

God is working to build up those in Christ so stop looking for physical evidence of perfect lifestyles as proof. You don't know where each Christian is at it their walk. But God does, so leave it to Him. The criminal on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was sanctified without the physical evidence your doctrine demands.

 

[7angels]

if you check the word of God you will find that grace does not come just because you are saved. does anyone know how grace really works? i am sure most christians can tell you what grace is for but who can tell me how we obtain grace. can anyone obtain grace? does grace belong to a select few only? are there prerequisites needed in order to obtain grace? if so what are they? please use scripture to back up your points. thanks

God bless

 

[whitestone]

Excellent posting brother.
It is all about Christ living His righteousness in us by which we are Righteous.
Every moment of every day and night I fervently pray again and again more and more that He would increase in me and I would decrease, as John the baptist said.
I pray always for every last bit of unrighteousnss to be purged out, washed away, cleansed and otherwise killed off from within this Temple Body that Christ bought with the price of His Blood.
Now, the things this body thinks are out of the Mind of Christ.
Now, the steps this body takes are His steps on that narrow way.
Now, the things I say are His Words of which I speak no more and no less than what He says.
Now, I have arisen in Christ, having died to myself.
This Spirit of Christ in me has conquered evil and overcame temptation, sin and death in me.
I move and breathe and have my being in Him who moves and breathes and has His Being in me.
Christ in me.
I love Him So!

Never could I leave Him nor forsake Him.
Never could I entertain again it is so disgusting... as a dog turning back to its own vomit.
Never could I consider repeating sins I've committed.
I was certainly a chief sinner too...
I've committed adultery, I've coveted my neighbor's wife, I've lied I've stolen and I've broken every other commandment on the books.
Never again shall this body that now belongs to Christ ever be part of that which is of the devil.
The Law of Righteousness of Christ in me assures me of this.
So now I have boldness and confidence before the Throne of Grace wherein this Power comes forth into me, that I should always stand steadfast, immovable in the work of the Lord, always abounding in His Love and enjoying His Righteousness Peace and Joy forever in His Holy Spirit.
The Kingdom of God I live in forever. The New Jerusalem. Mt Zion. The Church of the firstborn.
Christ Jesus our King is quite good to us

Praise you Jesus!
Whitestone

 

[Rach1370]

Amen haz.
It truly bothers me when people talk about 'grace' being something given to us for our own power. Like grace in and of itself is not enough, it must lead us to do something else. Talk about unbiblical.
Do you want to know what grace gives us power to do? Glorify Him. That is all we have to give...nothing else we can do will be worth squat.
Does that mean we sit back and do nothing, or live a sinful life un-bothered? No. It just means we do this in response to the gift of grace...not to earn grace or keep it...or to use it as a spring board to become 'more' or 'better'.

 

[whitestone]

Hi Epi,

You are incorrect claiming that only a perfect lifestyle/behavior shows whether one is really saved or not.

So what does scripture say?

1John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

1John 3:2
Beloved, NOW we are children of God;

Gal 3:26,27
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [sup] [/sup]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

God is working to build up those in Christ so stop looking for physical evidence of perfect lifestyles as proof. You don't know where each Christian is at it their walk. But God does, so leave it to Him. The criminal on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was sanctified without the physical evidence your doctrine demands.

You aren't tracking very well Haz.

I sure didn't have a problem understanding Epi's post, or any of the scriptures. But most definetly, none of the scriptures you quoted support your statement, nor do they thwart what Epi has said.

But since you ask, HERE is a PERTINENT scripture concerning how we can tell if others are sinning and in need of being pulled from the fire because of their sins....

(1Pe 2:12)

Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Evil doers can tell a righteous man by his "good works".
Obviously, the only good works that can come forth in a man are those works Christ Himself is doing in us;

(Php 1:6)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

(Jud 1:23)

And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Amen haz.
It truly bothers me when people talk about 'grace' being something given to us for our own power. Like grace in and of itself is not enough, it must lead us to do something else. Talk about unbiblical.
Do you want to know what grace gives us power to do? Glorify Him. That is all we have to give...nothing else we can do will be worth squat.
Does that mean we sit back and do nothing, or live a sinful life un-bothered? No. It just means we do this in response to the gift of grace...not to earn grace or keep it...or to use it as a spring board to become 'more' or 'better'.

Rach, no one has Grace unless we die to ourselves and the Power of the Risen Lord is present and is working within us.
That is what Epi is saying, that is what the scriptures he provides are saying.
Why do you feel the need to attack a Son of God teaching you with false accusations?? You would do well to lay a hand across your mouth and listen to him very closely, best advice.

(Eph 3:7)

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

POWER PRODUCES GRACE. Grace is a state of being IN His Power. And Grace comes forth ONLY from that Power that produces Sons of God.

if you check the word of God you will find that grace does not come just because you are saved. does anyone know how grace really works? i am sure most christians can tell you what grace is for but who can tell me how we obtain grace. can anyone obtain grace? does grace belong to a select few only? are there prerequisites needed in order to obtain grace? if so what are they? please use scripture to back up your points. thanks

God bless

Firstly, the Grace of God is given unto us by the effectual working of His Power. Grace comes from this Power. This can not be denied;

(Eph 3:7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Secondly, the Grace of God and it's source of power, can ONLY get stronger as WE get weaker!

(2Co 12:9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

And thirdly, the POWER is one's personal witness both of Living and Testifying of the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and Great Grace Comes upon those who bare witness of the resurrection of Christ in their bodies!

(Act 4:33) And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

We who are of this Power as Sons of God, show forth the crucifixion against our flesh moment by moment, never given room to the evil one to work wickedness in our bodies;

(2Co 4:10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
(2Co 4:11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
(2Co 4:12) So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

This is the Word of God on this topic.

When we witness the Power of Resurrection as Sons of God do, we tell others about it and are in great grace because of it. O the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ!

Peace,
Whitestone

 

[Episkopos]

Amen haz.
It truly bothers me when people talk about 'grace' being something given to us for our own power. Like grace in and of itself is not enough, it must lead us to do something else. Talk about unbiblical.
Do you want to know what grace gives us power to do? Glorify Him. That is all we have to give...nothing else we can do will be worth squat.
Does that mean we sit back and do nothing, or live a sinful life un-bothered? No. It just means we do this in response to the gift of grace...not to earn grace or keep it...or to use it as a spring board to become 'more' or 'better'.

Grace is a gift that is given as a means to attain to Christ.

Even Paul said...

Php_3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

People are following a far different course in our time than Paul was in his.

 

[dragonfly]

The Spirit of grace is the Spirit of enabling.

The spiritual gifts are properly known as the graces (the charismata). We are enabled by the Spirit to 'do' things which ordinary people cannot.

How do we 'do' them? By the power of the indwelling Spirit of enabling - the Holy Spirit - from God, which works through us (also changing us in that process).


Episkopos is talking about the power to do the right(eous) thing. That's grace. Rom 6:11, 16.


1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that
God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

All the worry about 'works' is unnecessary. It's as simple as this. If you lie (verb), you are a liar (noun).


We become what we 'do', just as we become what we look at, or, we become what we eat. All are relevant.


By 'doing' righteousness, we become righteous. We become righteous!

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you:
he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


Grace is the power of Christ's resurrection bringing us new(ness of) life (Rom 6:4) - enabling us to be different, after we have identified with Christ in His death by faith (cirucmcision of the heart); 'faith' being our response to hearing the preaching of the cross where 'our old man' was crucified. [was = past tense]

 

[Episkopos]

The Spirit of grace is the Spirit of enabling.

The spiritual gifts are properly known as the graces (the charismata). We are enabled by the Spirit to 'do' things which ordinary people cannot.

How do we 'do' them? By the power of the indwelling Spirit of enabling - the Holy Spirit - from God, which works through us (also changing us in that process).


Episkopos is talking about the power to do the right(eous) thing. That's grace. Rom 6:11, 16.


1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that
God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

All the worry about 'works' is unnecessary. It's as simple as this. If you lie (verb), you are a liar (noun).


We become what we 'do', just as we become what we look at, or, we become what we eat. All are relevant.


By 'doing' righteousness, we become righteous. We become righteous!

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you:
he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


Grace is the power of Christ's resurrection bringing us new(ness of) life (Rom 6:4) - enabling us to be different, after we have identified with Christ in His death by faith (cirucmcision of the heart); 'faith' being our response to hearing the preaching of the cross where 'our old man' was crucified. [was = past tense]

Well said!

It mystifies me how anyone cannot see this...

 

[dragonfly]

It mystifies me how anyone cannot see this...

If the length of time it took me to 'see it' is anything to go by, it's not a mystery to me!


God had given me His Spirit long before and I still couldn't 'see' that I was trying to live in His resurrection - of which I had proofs - without having been grafted into His death. Now I could 'see' what those who had preached it had been talking about - because now it was relevant to my going on with God, and I could, at last see its great appeal! I 'saw' that I had been trying on my own, to fix the unfixable. Now I understood His death would free me from fleshly-effort, it presented itself in a new light and I realised that in my heart, with my whole heart, I had never received His death willingly, and with that understanding. The process of coming to that moment also, was God's grace at work in my life.


So then I discovered that to receive His death marks an end to self, and it really worked!!!!

 

[Episkopos]

If the length of time it took me to 'see it' is anything to go by, it's not a mystery to me!


God had given me His Spirit long before and I still couldn't 'see' that I was trying to live in His resurrection - of which I had proofs - without having been grafted into His death. Now I could 'see' what those who had preached it had been talking about - because now it was relevant to my going on with God, and I could, at last see its great appeal! I 'saw' that I had been trying on my own, to fix the unfixable. Now I understood His death would free me from fleshly-effort, it presented itself in a new light and I realised that in my heart, with my whole heart, I had never received His death willingly, and with that understanding. The process of coming to that moment also, was God's grace at work in my life.


So then I discovered that to receive His death marks an end to self, and it really worked!!!!

That's great!!!!

I came at it from the other direction. I was basically suicidal and had no more hope or wish to live when God came in to convict me of my sins...I even went to the RC's to confession...but my sins were a weight I could no longer bear. I read all the books in my apt until there was just a living new testament left. I was fasting because I had no money...and I read all day and into the night. I tried praying asking if God was real or not...I did this continually for a few days and then He baptized me in the Spirit as I read about the Holy Spirit (1980)!!! I walked in a literal light for days afterwards until I got very lonely in my soul. I wanted out as this was both too good to be true AND no one would believe me...

God let me out as I wished....I then regretted this and again sank into a depression. I had seen so much thast I could not return to a life without Him...yet I could not remain in Zion with Him due to my selfishness. Then Jesus spoke to Me...

You know WHERE I am...follow Me.

This I have endeavoured to do having seen so many other things and experienced more than I would expect anyone to believe. Woe is me if I don't bear witness of the power of God.

 

[haz]

You aren't tracking very well Haz.

I sure didn't have a problem understanding Epi's post, or any of the scriptures. But most definetly, none of the scriptures you quoted support your statement, nor do they thwart what Epi has said.

But since you ask, HERE is a PERTINENT scripture concerning how we can tell if others are sinning and in need of being pulled from the fire because of their sins....

(1Pe 2:12)

Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Evil doers can tell a righteous man by his "good works".
Obviously, the only good works that can come forth in a man are those works Christ Himself is doing in us;

(Php 1:6)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

(Jud 1:23)

And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.



Rach, no one has Grace unless we die to ourselves and the Power of the Risen Lord is present and is working within us.
That is what Epi is saying, that is what the scriptures he provides are saying.
Why do you feel the need to attack a Son of God teaching you with false accusations?? You would do well to lay a hand across your mouth and listen to him very closely, best advice.

(Eph 3:7)

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

POWER PRODUCES GRACE. Grace is a state of being IN His Power. And Grace comes forth ONLY from that Power that produces Sons of God.



Firstly, the Grace of God is given unto us by the effectual working of His Power. Grace comes from this Power. This can not be denied;

(Eph 3:7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Secondly, the Grace of God and it's source of power, can ONLY get stronger as WE get weaker!

(2Co 12:9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

And thirdly, the POWER is one's personal witness both of Living and Testifying of the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and Great Grace Comes upon those who bare witness of the resurrection of Christ in their bodies!

(Act 4:33) And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

We who are of this Power as Sons of God, show forth the crucifixion against our flesh moment by moment, never given room to the evil one to work wickedness in our bodies;

(2Co 4:10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
(2Co 4:11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
(2Co 4:12) So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

This is the Word of God on this topic.

When we witness the Power of Resurrection as Sons of God do, we tell others about it and are in great grace because of it. O the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ!

Peace,
Whitestone

Hi whitestone,

We clearly differ in understanding of scriptures as we both follow different gospels.

A Christians works are to believe on Jesus (John 6:29). It's by grace that we are saved, not of works of the law, Eph 2:7-9

But you see works in the same way as Paul did before his conversion. Perfect obedience to the law. According to the righteousness which is in the law, Paul was blameless (Phil 3:6), just as the works crowd here also preaches.

But Paul counted that dung, to instead be found in Christ having the righteousness which is of God by faith (Phil 3:9).

 

[Episkopos]

Hi whitestone,

We clearly differ in understanding of scriptures as we both follow different gospels.

A Christians works are to believe on Jesus (John 6:29). It's by grace that we are saved, not of works of the law, Eph 2:7-9

But you see works in the same way as Paul did before his conversion. Perfect obedience to the law. According to the righteousness which is in the law, Paul was blameless (Phil 3:6), just as the works crowd here also preaches.

But Paul counted that dung, to instead be found in Christ having the righteousness which is of God by faith (Phil 3:9).

Now if you only understood what faith really is.

 

[haz]

Now if you only understood what faith really is.

Hi Epi,

Faith: Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But your gospel is based on physical evidence as proof one is abiding in Christ.

Your claim of understanding 'faith' based on a physical proof before acceptance of it, is not faith.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

Faith: Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But your gospel is based on physical evidence as proof one is abiding in Christ.

Your claim of understanding 'faith' based on a physical proof before acceptance of it, is not faith.

Again both your options are from men.

Here is a question that is meant to help you...although I don't expect your defensive mechanisms will let you actually listen... (such is the conundrim of one who is still captive by the old sin nature)

How did Ananias know where to find Paul in Damascus???

 

[dragonfly]

That's great!!!!

I came at it from the other direction. I was basically suicidal and had no more hope or wish to live when God came in to convict me of my sins...I even went to the RC's to confession...but my sins were a weight I could no longer bear. I read all the books in my apt until there was just a living new testament left. I was fasting because I had no money...and I read all day and into the night. I tried praying asking if God was real or not...I did this continually for a few days and then He baptized me in the Spirit as I read about the Holy Spirit (1980)!!! I walked in a literal light for days afterwards until I got very lonely in my soul. I wanted out as this was both too good to be true AND no one would believe me...

God let me out as I wished....I then regretted this and again sank into a depression. I had seen so much thast I could not return to a life without Him...yet I could not remain in Zion with Him due to my selfishness. Then Jesus spoke to Me...

You know WHERE I am...follow Me.

This I have endeavoured to do having seen so many other things and experienced more than I would expect anyone to believe. Woe is me if I don't bear witness of the power of God.

Wow! That is indeed a very different experience to mine. I really understand what you mean about that literal light, and how it changed you for ever. That battle with old habits is mean, isn't it?

But it is the proof of our relationship with Him, the more we overcome them by the power of His life!

Praise the Lord!

 

[Rach1370]

Rach, no one has Grace unless we die to ourselves and the Power of the Risen Lord is present and is working within us.
That is what Epi is saying, that is what the scriptures he provides are saying.
Why do you feel the need to attack a Son of God teaching you with false accusations?? You would do well to lay a hand across your mouth and listen to him very closely, best advice.

(Eph 3:7)

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

POWER PRODUCES GRACE. Grace is a state of being IN His Power. And Grace comes forth ONLY from that Power that produces Sons of God.

My problem is I have been listening to him. And while he's got religious language down pat, a lot of what he says does not ring true...biblically.

We know that grace is a gift:

and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:24 ESV)

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:23 ESV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

A gift, especially a free one, means that there is no need to earn it or keep it by some behaviour on our part. I agree completely that we need to 'die' to ourselves...that we need to put the old sin nature to death. But we do not do this before Christ saves us with his grace. We were 'still sinners' when Jesus saved us, when his grace knocked us over and created us anew. So obviously there was nothing we did to merit such a gift. And once we received it and were made new? Then we begin to walk with him...sanctification. Yes we try and do what the bible tells us to, yes we strive to become more Christ like, yes we repent from our sins and put them to death. But we do not do this on our own...we are still incapable of doing this under our own steam....we need Christ to help us. We are his 'workmanship'...and he that authored our faith, will perfect it through us.
My problem with Epi is that he constantly puts a spin on this...that we must do this, or that, to earn or keep grace. That we must be 'good enough' to enter (under our own steam apparently) into God's "inner circle". That is not how it works...for that would be placing some of the glory on ourselves and our own ability. It should all be on God. We know that He gives grace to us freely while we are hopelessly lost and dark...and we know that anything we do is in response to that gift...not to earn it, or to keep it.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
(Romans 4:4-12 ESV)

Grace is NOT the power to get where we want to go ourselves. Grace is everything...it is eternal life and salvation...forgiveness of sins...given to us by a loving God. It is given to us when we believe, when we have faith...not because of our actions beforehand, and certainly not afterwards. How we behave after we are saved is in direct response to what we've been given...because we want to please him, not because we have to.

Grace is a gift that is given as a means to attain to Christ.

See, again you are putting the emphasis on what YOU have to do...."grace...a means to help you get to Christ". No. I'm sorry, but that is wrong. You do not get yourself to Christ....He comes to you. He give a free gift to you, and he walks with you. You have placed yourself in a role of a teacher, and you are teaching others that their works will somehow have an impact on their salvation. That is unbiblical, and just wrong, and I'm very much afraid that you will end up paying for this folly. I have no problem with you encouraging people to live well...to revel in the grace given, to follow Jesus because of love and joy in being set free.
But to tell them that if they stumble they have not yet 'attained' Jesus, and to tell them that they can only 'attain' Jesus if they don't stumble, leaves them no where to go. They will spend the rest of their lives trying to be perfect so they can 'attain' Christ, only to be told at the end that works could not save them, and that Jesus did not know them at all. Jesus saves. He comes to us, gives us grace and then we have a personal relationship with Him. We cling to him and keep our eyes on him, and as we do that we walk with him, by his help. That is how we grow. And it's all on him...all the glory and all the power. Anything else is self glorifying, and that's not biblical.

 

[Episkopos]

My problem is I have been listening to him. And while he's got religious language down pat, a lot of what he says does not ring true...biblically.

We know that grace is a gift:

and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:24 ESV)

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:23 ESV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

A gift, especially a free one, means that there is no need to earn it or keep it by some behaviour on our part. I agree completely that we need to 'die' to ourselves...that we need to put the old sin nature to death. But we do not do this before Christ saves us with his grace. We were 'still sinners' when Jesus saved us, when his grace knocked us over and created us anew. So obviously there was nothing we did to merit such a gift. And once we received it and were made new? Then we begin to walk with him...sanctification. Yes we try and do what the bible tells us to, yes we strive to become more Christ like, yes we repent from our sins and put them to death. But we do not do this on our own...we are still incapable of doing this under our own steam....we need Christ to help us. We are his 'workmanship'...and he that authored our faith, will perfect it through us.
My problem with Epi is that he constantly puts a spin on this...that we must do this, or that, to earn or keep grace. That we must be 'good enough' to enter (under our own steam apparently) into God's "inner circle". That is not how it works...for that would be placing some of the glory on ourselves and our own ability. It should all be on God. We know that He gives grace to us freely while we are hopelessly lost and dark...and we know that anything we do is in response to that gift...not to earn it, or to keep it.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
(Romans 4:4-12 ESV)

Grace is NOT the power to get where we want to go ourselves. Grace is everything...it is eternal life and salvation...forgiveness of sins...given to us by a loving God. It is given to us when we believe, when we have faith...not because of our actions beforehand, and certainly not afterwards. How we behave after we are saved is in direct response to what we've been given...because we want to please him, not because we have to.




See, again you are putting the emphasis on what YOU have to do...."grace...a means to help you get to Christ". No. I'm sorry, but that is wrong. You do not get yourself to Christ....He comes to you. He give a free gift to you, and he walks with you. You have placed yourself in a role of a teacher, and you are teaching others that their works will somehow have an impact on their salvation. That is unbiblical, and just wrong, and I'm very much afraid that you will end up paying for this folly. I have no problem with you encouraging people to live well...to revel in the grace given, to follow Jesus because of love and joy in being set free.
But to tell them that if they stumble they have not yet 'attained' Jesus, and to tell them that they can only 'attain' Jesus if they don't stumble, leaves them no where to go. They will spend the rest of their lives trying to be perfect so they can 'attain' Christ, only to be told at the end that works could not save them, and that Jesus did not know them at all. Jesus saves. He comes to us, gives us grace and then we have a personal relationship with Him. We cling to him and keep our eyes on him, and as we do that we walk with him, by his help. That is how we grow. And it's all on him...all the glory and all the power. Anything else is self glorifying, and that's not biblical.

I think you are confusing coming to Christ and attaining to Christ. I am using exact biblical terminology here.

Coming to Christ is through the gift of repentance by the Holy Spirit. But we must choose afterwards whether we will run the race of faith or not...most today choose to call it quits and claim they are already saved. Some try to improve themselves and call it sanctification....but this is not what I'm saying at all.

What we have begun in the Spirit we must continue in the Spirit. Coming to Christ is only the first step in a race to ATTAIN to Christ in our characters....we are saved in our spirits in order to become saved in our souls.

So the race of faith is to go lower learning true humility in the process...not exult ourselves with our initial salvations. We must go deeply to the cross to be broken and have the old nature killed so that the deposit of the Spirit can rise up and overcome.

I am stating that we must further surrender AFTER being born again...THAT IS sanctification. This sanctification is both a one time experience (to show us what this is) AND an ongoing process that leads to a full maturity in Christ. (2 Peter 1)

We furthermore...who take the walk of Christ seriously...should seek out to be in a constant fellowship with ohters also called to be saints...that the life generated by the gathering of the body might draw out the life that is in us who are born of the Spirit.

I realize this sounds very foreign to most people...but it is entirely biblical...and it actually works in real life.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

You commented to whitestone:

We clearly differ in understanding of scriptures as we both follow different gospels.

Doesn't it bother you that there is only one gospel in scripture - the one Episkopos is proclaiming - and you don't recognise it?

You say to him...

But your gospel is based on physical evidence as proof one is abiding in Christ.

Why do you think this is unreasonable, when it's not possible to read the New Testament and receive any other impression of what it means to be a Christian? The world was not turned upside-down by 120ish people who had no 'physical evidence as proof of their abiding in Christ'. The opposite was true. Just look at the end of Acts 9. That's 'physical evidence'.

That's because the Son of God as man physically hung on a cross and in His own body bore our sins, resisting all the powers of darkeness which assailed Him there (as He had habitually resisted before the cross) and he really shed blood that our sins may be remitted.

His victory over the devil, there, was a physical victory. There is no 'spiritual' which does not have a 'physical' side to it.

And now we are expected to be able to attain to many physical victories if we are in Him, walking according to His faith and strength and having the same attitude to sins as He had. This rudimentary concept justifies a person calling himself 'a disciple' - that is, a person who is now disciplined by and wholly attuned to agreeing with the thinking of his Teacher and Master.


Look at these verses, please:

John 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; [These are John's disciples with John.]
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he [John the Baptist] said, Behold the Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples [of John] heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and said to them, What seek ye?
They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He said to them, Come and see. They came and saw where he [Jesus] dwelt, and abode with him that day:

Can you see in that important incident which the apostle John records for us, that John the Baptist lost two disciples that day, because the disciples had found who they were looking for now? John 1:41, 42 They changed from following John, to following Jesus? That is, they stopped walking along with John and started walking along with Jesus. It was a physical following. It was physically experienced by them and by John and by Jesus.


To make out that Episkopos is proclaiming requirements as if they are way beyond scripture, only proves what he is saying when he states that most people are not aware of what's involved in the stages after the first step of faith towards Christ.

John 16:12 I [Jesus] have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


Here are a few verses which tie in with what he wrote to Rach, above.

Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 [There is] one body,
and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But to every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [ - grace for the callings in v 11.] ?

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man,

to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ​

14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,

by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness whereby they lie, in wait to deceive; ​

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies,
according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them,

because of the blindness of their heart...'​

There are churches which use Ephesians 4:1 - 16 as the pattern of their understanding of church life. Have you ever seen one?