Grace or works of the law?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus, Himself, wrote a letter to that church era and did not like them making His mother a substitute for a goddess to make life more familiar for the pagans. He tole them to repent and they never did so they have to go through the Great Tribulation. And Christ is always a baby.

The last recorded words of Mary, "Do what He tells you to do."

The Catholics could learn something from that! But they won't!
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You think the Church belongs to Peter and now to your pope. And you revere Mary more than Jesus who is the ONLY one to pray to. Catholics want to take Jesus completely out of our salvation and give it to Mary.

there is only one savior! Lk 2:10
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are dangerously close to blasphemy. You are trying to make Peter more important than JESUS!!!

I don't think your mind can handle the truth because you've been brainwashed since birth. One more blasphemy and you are going on ignore.

there is only one savior / one mediator!

Jesus Christ is the one who builds the church! Matt 16:18-19

I will build my church!
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing!
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

christ alone is king!

but no king administers his own kingdom, he appoints a prime minster (peter) and a parliament (the apostles) to govern his kingdom!

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

the (key) of the house was of David the king or the keys of the kingdom are given to Peter Matt 16:18-19
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well you should probably reference the Bible. Did Christ and the Apostles give instruction on prayer?
Alms...charity....Good Deeds, did Christ give instruction on that?
Virtues and morals are not works they are what Christ expects of us and what pleases the Lord.
The word suffer and its variances can mean a few things in the Bible....allow....patience....etc. When it refers to Christianity it usually is referring to Christ's Passion or that some would suffer because of their faith.
There is no requirement for fasting, but there are examples and Christ and the Apostles referred to prayer and fasting as a good thing. There is no Judgment mentioned in the Bible about not fasting. But there is judgment for certain sins that will prevent you from inheriting the kingdom of Heaven.

2nd Corinthians 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

And for those that do not help their brothers and sisters in need, the parable of the Sheep and the Goats says that.....
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

But you know these scriptures, you just want to preach against the Bible and God.

Be good and do good.....the Johnny Appleseed of truth

are Christians “called to suffer”?
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
are Christians “called to suffer”?

Finally an interesting and legitimate topic!

And Christ said, You must suffer and be poor and hate your mother and father to be my disciples.

Any takers for that religion? For one thing you would not get married because spouses would hate each other by direction of Christ and you would have no children because you would know that they would hate you.

And Christians today would be known as "walkers" or numbered with the homeless.... owning nothing.

Well Christ did say you had to hate your mother and father to be His disciple but that is another story.....
But no, Christ did not go through the Passion to form a religion of sufferers. What a morbid thought.

But you would think Christ did say, If you love me, suffer and be sad..... by the way early Christians reacted and for the majority of the history of Christianity. They tortured themselves and each other as religious devotion. The belief that Christ gets satisfaction for human suffering and Christianity's negative view of sexuality are two the most harmful misconceptions in Christian history.
 
Last edited:

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Finally an interesting and legitimate topic!

And Christ said, You must suffer and be poor and hate your mother and father to be my disciples.

Any takers for that religion? For one thing you would not get married because spouses would hate each other by direction of Christ and you would have no children because you would know that they would hate you.

And Christians today would be known as "walkers" or numbered with the homeless.... owning nothing.

Well Christ did say you had to hate your mother and father to be His disciple but that is another story.....
But no, Christ did not go through the Passion to form a religion of sufferers. What a morbid thought.

But you would think Christ did say, If you love me, suffer and be sad..... by the way early Christians reacted and for the majority of the history of Christianity. They tortured themselves and each other as religious devotion. The belief that Christ gets satisfaction for human suffering and Christianity's negative view of sexuality are two the most harmful misconceptions in Christian history.

what about?

phil 1:29
And
Matt 16:24
And
1 pet 4:1

you are not required to hate you’re wife or father and mother but it means to put God first after all the commandment of promise it to honor father and mother

and self-denial and penance is virtue
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
phil 1:29
And
Matt 16:24
And
1 pet 4:1

There was no doubt that Christ knew Christians would suffer, but it is not a religious devotion it is because of their devotion to Christ. The Roman persecution of Christians lasted about 260 years, He knew that it was something that they would have to endure.

you are not required to hate you’re wife or father and mother but it means to put God first after all the commandment of promise it to honor father and mother

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26

I mostly agree with your interpretation considering the scriptures that are before it and after it are about devotion, but not all scholars agree. Some suggest that it is a statement of exasperation because of all the excuses people were giving Him about not joining His ministry, which would explain the intensity of it. I am on the fence with the meaning of the scripture but like you, I am more sure of what it cannot mean.

self-denial and penance is virtue

The words self-denial and penance do not appear in the Bible, so it cannot refer to them as virtues. These are beliefs that evolved later and were expanded upon by the Catholic Church. In some degree in detail but were offset by the doctrine of indulgences.

All of this is part of a larger discussion of how Christianity developed some very negative beliefs because of not taking the scriptures in context of circumstances that they were written in and the over all spirit of Christ.

Some of that was resolved as time went on, for example modern Christianity developed "a focus on the family" that does not appear in the New Testament. The Bible is not going to give instruction on romance....there is not a push for marriage, if anything celibacy was seen as the better way and things went south from there.

For the most part the so called Early Church Fathers considered sex as dirty, nasty, and sinful and it did not matter if it was in or out marriage. Some considered marriage as adultery against God. In a male dominate religion it is of no surprise that the next step was to consider women as temptresses of the devil.

Just one of the examples of how a religion can go down a dark road if it does not understand the spirit of Christ or Christianity. The Protestants corrected some of the this but not all of it and it is probably because of the Protestants that the Catholic Church came out of most of it. But for sure it was the Protestants that first established the focus on the family and the Catholics followed suit.

A fun fact that the Protestants were the first to require wedding ceremonies to get married and again the Catholics followed suit.
 
Last edited:

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ephesians rightly speaks of saved by grace...

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

It is important to know to whom it was written...

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

How did the saints to whom the epistles are written get saved...

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Therefore, is Acts 2:38 grace or works of the law?
All grace is help to do the law of Christ righteously. All works of the law without grace through faith, is vain.

It's not either/or, but only one way to fulfill the righteousness of the law by grace, which is through Jesus Christ.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Eph 2:8 is already past history when it was written so it don’t apply to you getting saved by faith alone at altar call or some fundamentalist tent meeting, it refers to the redemption of man by Christ apart from us!
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Eph 2:1 & 2:5 quickend refers to being brought to the life of grace in the initiation sacrament of baptismal regeneration!

Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 cor 5:17
 

user

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
964
524
93
usa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism? ;)

Good to see you again, Dan. Hope is all well with you and yours.
You are correct, baptism is not mentioned in Acts 3:19. Repentance and baptism is absolutely vital for salvation but it is not mentioned in every salvation verse. But that is the beauty of Acts 2:38, it encapsulates both elements...


Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.(no mention of baptism)

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.(no mention of repentance)

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

Bob Estey

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2021
4,675
2,483
113
71
Sparks, Nevada
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ephesians rightly speaks of saved by grace...

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

It is important to know to whom it was written...

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

How did the saints to whom the epistles are written get saved...

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Therefore, is Acts 2:38 grace or works of the law?
I find that when I behave myself, I stay out of trouble.
 
  • Like
Reactions: user

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ephesians rightly speaks of saved by grace...

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

It is important to know to whom it was written...

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

How did the saints to whom the epistles are written get saved...

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Therefore, is Acts 2:38 grace or works of the law?

How do you reconcile that with what Apostle Paul also said in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 about those who break God's laws he mentioned there?
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Repentance alone is not NT salvation.

Salvation entails repentance as the sinner's part, water baptism in the name is Jesus Christ for the remission of sins as the Church's part, and receiving the Holy Ghost as God's part.(Acts 2:38)

Everyone has a part in salvation.

This is why Jesus said whosoever sins you remit they are remitted....

Grace is for help to do the commandment of God, and works of the law without faith have no need of grace.

Therefore water baptism alone does not save, and yet it is commanded.

Anyone one refusing to be water baptized in witness of others, have a faith and salvation problem, just as refusing to obey any commandment of the Lord.
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Grace is for help to do the commandment of God, and works of the law without faith have no need of grace.

Therefore water baptism alone does not save, and yet it is commanded.

Anyone one refusing to be water baptized in witness of others, have a faith and salvation problem, just as refusing to obey any commandment of the Lord.
I don’t care what works people have as long as they get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don’t care what works people have as long as they get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.
That's about as clear as any Pharisee can make it. Just do our law as we teach it, and anything else is of no importance, whether doing good or evil.

Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

I would never consent to be baptized into such a congregation. I would go where we are baptized into a congregation, because it is the Lord's commandment and will to declare ourselves before the saints, and to be recieved by them with open arms of fellowship.

But if they base their whole religion on it, then I don't worship one another in our own personal private sects.
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's about as clear as any Pharisee can make it. Just do our law as we teach it, and anything else is of no importance, whether doing good or evil.

Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

I would never consent to be baptized into such a congregation. I would go where we are baptized into a congregation, because it is the Lord's commandment and will to declare ourselves before the saints, and to be recieved by them with open arms of fellowship.

But if they base their whole religion on it, then I don't worship one another in our own personal private sects.
Was Peter a Pharisee here?...


37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


What a Pharisee, huh?
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Was Peter a Pharisee here?...


37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


What a Pharisee, huh?
People who push a false teaching of their own, to justify themselves, have lost the ability to be corrected by their own words.

Peter never said just be baptized in Jesus name, and no other works matter.

Being saved forever by Acts 2:38 alone, is akin to the OSAS lie of being saved forever by one's own faith alone.

They turn Ephesians 2:8 and Acts 2:38 into idols of their own making.
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
People who push a false teaching of their own, to justify themselves, have lost the ability to be corrected by their own words.

Peter never said just be baptized in Jesus name, and no other works matter.

Being saved forever by Acts 2:38 alone, is akin to the OSAS lie of being saved forever by one's own faith alone.

They turn Ephesians 2:8 and Acts 2:38 into idols of their own making.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...


Peter, the false teacher?