Halloween Street Preaching

[justbyfaith]

The focus of the Sermon on the Mount is not remotely fear. Same with rest of scripture.

That is what you say...

 

[Jane_Doe22]

That is what you say...

The Gospel is a message of love. Discipleship is the product of love.

Threats and fear only spawn more threats and fear. That's nothing more than the cycle of abuse.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Gospel is a message of love. Discipleship is the product of love.

Threats and fear only spawn more threats and fear. That's nothing more than the cycle of abuse.

The fear of the LORD is wisdom according to Job 28:28...

It is the beginning of wisdom according to two other verses...

The beginning of real knowledge according to one other verse...

According to another two passages, we are indeed to fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell.

Normally I can find about three verses to substantiate my pov on any given subject (and the three are enough; for the third time it shall do double damage)...

But with the subject of the fear of the LORD, there are many, many verses that teach it.

Jesus spoke about hell more than any other subject...that ought to tell you something.

 

[Willie T]

Nevertheless, it is the truth of holy scripture that people will go to hell for rejecting Christ. Should we neglect to warn them? I think that we would be held accountable by the Lord for such lack of love as to fail to warn people of impending judgment when it is about to come upon them. I think also that on their day of judgement they would look on us with hatred as well as disappointment, because, if we had told them of the truth of this matter, they might have gotten the picture and turned from their sins. They would say to you, "why didn't you warn me about this? Now I am going to hell because you remained silent."

I have BOLDED the entire mistaken premise of just about all you are trying to stand upon. Rejecting Christ is not the cause of going to Hell. It is a foregone conclusion that Hell awaits all mankind by inheritance. Accepting Christ alters that.

Your argument makes it sound like all people may have a possibly unknown hereafter (maybe even Heaven), but should they not accept Christ, then they will be punished for that rejection by being sent, instead, to Hell.

Actually, the Bible plainly says that Heaven would be our destination IF we had not been born into sin. "Yes, you can go to Heaven without accepting Christ... providing there is no sin found in you. The plain fact is that only the action of being and living totally sinless is what qualified Christ, Himself, to be raised from the dead.

 

[Helen]

Preach love, which is the foundation of discipleship.
Not fear, as if selling fire insurance.

 

[Giuliano]

Nevertheless, it is the truth of holy scripture that people will go to hell for rejecting Christ. Should we neglect to warn them? I think that we would be held accountable by the Lord for such lack of love as to fail to warn people of impending judgment when it is about to come upon them. I think also that on their day of judgement they would look on us with hatred as well as disappointment, because, if we had told them of the truth of this matter, they might have gotten the picture and turned from their sins. They would say to you, "why didn't you warn me about this? Now I am going to hell because you remained silent."

I don't know what you mean by "rejecting Christ." Do you mean failing to recite a formula saying you accept Jesus? Or do you mean rejecting his message of Love?

I think we reject Jesus if we hear about the Golden Rule and then continue to treat other people poorly. We honor Jesus if we accept his message and practice it.

Thus we read that on judgment day, Jesus says to some people to enter the kingdom because when they were kindness to others was as if they had been kind to him. Some of those people are surprised, never expecting to rewarded for their kindness to others.

Then there are others who say they did all kinds of things for Jesus, and he tells them to leave him because he never knew them.

Your scenario of the last judgment doesn't hold water if you ask me. I can invent another where people tell Jesus, "Oh if only I had known you stood for goodness and love. I thought Christians were crazy and angry; and I didn't want to be like them." That Halloween preacher may have a lot to answer for on judgment day then if he drove non-Christians further away from Jesus.

Jesus is not like an insecure male looking for a girlfriend. Such an insecure male may say, "I love you" to a woman; but if she's not interested, then he says, "Okay then, I hate you." It's not love if someone demands love in return. God is Love; and Love has no price tag attached. God Loves, pure and simple.

Do not say then that God "punishes" people for rejecting Him. It is not so. God does not enjoy punishing anyone; but He will protect the innocent, and sometimes that means He takes severe action against the guilty. A shepherd does not hate wolves. He loves his sheep, so if a wolf attacks his sheep, he takes action. If that means wounding or killing the wolf, so be it -- but the motive is still love.

If you had four children living with you and one kept stealing from the other three, what would you do? Would you do nothing, saying you loved them all, or would you kick out the offender because you loved the three innocent children? Thus when we read about God "punishing" people, we need to remember that God is Love, and His motive is always loving . . . even if it feels as if He is angry at times.

God does not become angry with His children for rejecting Him. He continues to love them. In the story about the prodigal son, was the father angry with the son who wanted to leave home? You know he wasn't. He waited for him to return.

God wants us to love Him, not because He is like a needy insecure human father or man looking for a girlfriend. God wants us to love Him because that is what is best for us.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I don't know what you mean by "rejecting Christ." Do you mean failing to recite a formula saying you accept Jesus? Or do you mean rejecting his message of Love?

I think we reject Jesus if we hear about the Golden Rule and then continue to treat other people poorly. We honor Jesus if we accept his message and practice it.

Thus we read that on judgment day, Jesus says to some people to enter the kingdom because when they were kindness to others was as if they had been kind to him. Some of those people are surprised, never expecting to rewarded for their kindness to others.

Then there are others who say they did all kinds of things for Jesus, and he tells them to leave him because he never knew them.

Your scenario of the last judgment doesn't hold water if you ask me. I can invent another where people tell Jesus, "Oh if only I had known you stood for goodness and love. I thought Christians were crazy and angry; and I didn't want to be like them." That Halloween preacher may have a lot to answer for on judgment day then if he drove non-Christians further away from Jesus.

Jesus is not like an insecure male looking for a girlfriend. Such an insecure male may say, "I love you" to a woman; but if she's not interested, then he says, "Okay then, I hate you." It's not love if someone demands love in return. God is Love; and Love has no price tag attached. God Loves, pure and simple.

Do not say then that God "punishes" people for rejecting Him. It is not so. God does not enjoy punishing anyone; but He will protect the innocent, and sometimes that means He takes severe action against the guilty. A shepherd does not hate wolves. He loves his sheep, so if a wolf attacks his sheep, he takes action. If that means wounding or killing the wolf, so be it -- but the motive is still love.

If you had four children living with you and one kept stealing from the other three, what would you do? Would you do nothing, saying you loved them all, or would you kick out the offender because you loved the three innocent children? Thus when we read about God "punishing" people, we need to remember that God is Love, and His motive is always loving . . . even if it feels as if He is angry at times.

God does not become angry with His children for rejecting Him. He continues to love them. In the story about the prodigal son, was the father angry with the son who wanted to leave home? You know he wasn't. He waited for him to return.

God wants us to love Him, not because He is like a needy insecure human father or man looking for a girlfriend. God wants us to love Him because that is what is best for us.

You're correct in saying that God is love (1 John 4:8). He's also a God of wrath. It wouldn't be loving others to deny that God's wrath will be poured out on those who reject Him and choose unrighteousness.

Col 3:5-7--Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Rom 1:18--For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5-11--But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

Rev 19:11-16--And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. -- His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Edit: Here's a link to a good article by Dr. Michael Brown talking about the wrath of God. The Wrath of God Is Coming

 

[Giuliano]

You're correct in saying that God is love (1 John 4:8). He's also a God of wrath. It wouldn't be loving others to deny that God's wrath will be poured out on those who reject Him and choose unrighteousness.

Col 3:5-7--Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Rom 1:18--For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5-11--But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

Rev 19:11-16--And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. -- His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

I believe I already explained what the "wrath" of God means. It is very much like the shepherd taking on ravenous predators. It is an expression of the Love of God for the innocent. God is not punishing the guilty out of anger but in order to establish peace for the sheep. God is always willing that the guilty come to repentance. He does not want to punish anyone.

It has nothing to do with making God feel rejected. God is not emotionally insecure. The problem is that when we reject God, we are rejecting Love; and that shows up then in how we treat others.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I believe I already explained what the "wrath" of God means. It is very much like the shepherd taking on ravenous predators. It is an expression of the Love of God for the innocent. God is not punishing the guilty out of anger but in order to establish peace for the sheep. God is always willing that the guilty come to repentance. He does not want to punish anyone.

It has nothing to do with making God feel rejected. God is not emotionally insecure. The problem is that when we reject God, we are rejecting Love; and that shows up then in how we treat others.

Here's a definition of wrath, as the word is used in the Bible.

KJV Dictionary Definition: wrath
WRATH, n. L.

1. Violent anger; vehement exasperation; indignation; as the wrath of Achilles.

When the wrath of king Ahasuerus was appeased--Esther 2.​

O Lord--in wrath remember mercy. Habakkuk 3.​

2. The effects of anger. Proverbs 27.

3. The just punishment of an offense or crime. Romans 8.

God's wrath, in Scripture, is his holy and just indignation against sin. Romans 1.

Source: WRATH - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

 

[justbyfaith]

Rejecting Christ is not the cause of going to Hell.

You're right...our sin is what puts us into hell...and our sins cannot be forgiven if we reject Christ, they will be forgiven if we receive Christ. Therefore rejecting Christ is an indirect cause for people going to hell. Because they really go to hell for their sins. Because they rejected Christ, their sins were not forgiven...and therefore the punishment of hell will be meted out: indirectly, because they rejected Christ. For Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life; no man cometh to the Father, except by me.

He also said,

Jhn 3:18, He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Actually, the Bible plainly says that Heaven would be our destination IF we had not been born into sin. "Yes, you can go to Heaven without accepting Christ... providing there is no sin found in you.

See 1 John 1:8 for that one.

I don't know what you mean by "rejecting Christ." Do you mean failing to recite a formula saying you accept Jesus?

I mean receiving or rejecting the Person of Jesus Christ. It is written,

Rom 10:8, But what saith it <the righteousness of faith>? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I think we reject Jesus if we hear about the Golden Rule and then continue to treat other people poorly.

That may be part of it, because we must receive Jesus as Lord. But there is more to it. Jesus is a Person, not just a set of moral standards. We must receive Him therefore, as a Person, in a relationship, into our hearts.

Jesus is not like an insecure male looking for a girlfriend.

I agree.

Do not say then that God "punishes" people for rejecting Him.

God punishes them for their sins; and because they do not receive Him they are not forgiven. They are therefore punished (indirectly) over the fact that they rejected Him and the forgiveness that He offers.

. . . even if it feels as if He is angry at times.

God does not become angry with His children for rejecting Him.

That may or may not be so. However God does get angry:

Psa 7:11, God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

I do think that those who are wicked wouldn't be wicked anymore if they were to receive Him. Therefore, since God is angry with their wickedness, their receiving Him, which would remedy their wickedness, would also remedy the anger that the Lord feels towards those who are wicked.

God wants us to love Him, not because He is like a needy insecure human father or man looking for a girlfriend.

I agree wholeheartedly. For @Jane_Doe22 has set forth something and compared it to the Lord, that is not to be compared to the Lord. God punishes sinners because He is the judge of all the earth; not because His love has been spurned by those to whom He has proposed marriage. The issue here is that He offers forgiveness concerning the sins that will put us in hell and along with that forgiveness comes a relationship with Him. In rejecting Him we would be rejecting forgiveness and a relationship. But He does not put us in hell because we rejected a relationship with Him; but because we rejected forgiveness and therefore the punishment for our sins will stand on the day of judgment. It is merely an unfortunate coincidence that the Lord offers a relationship with Him along with forgiveness; and this gives occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme.

 

[Giuliano]

Here's a definition of wrath, as the word is used in the Bible.

KJV Dictionary Definition: wrath
WRATH, n. L.

1. Violent anger; vehement exasperation; indignation; as the wrath of Achilles.

When the wrath of king Ahasuerus was appeased--Esther 2.​

O Lord--in wrath remember mercy. Habakkuk 3.​

2. The effects of anger. Proverbs 27.

3. The just punishment of an offense or crime. Romans 8.

God's wrath, in Scripture, is his holy and just indignation against sin. Romans 1.

Source: WRATH - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

That changes nothing. Very often the Bible uses words that express the actions of God using human terms. Surely you don't think God has a physical finger, do you? Yet we're told He wrote with His finger. Similarly we ought not to believe God's wrath is like man's wrath which is often based on irrationality. I assure you God is not like the men who throw acid on women's faces if the women reject their advances.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

God is not punishing the guilty out of anger but in order to establish peace for the sheep

I think that you should rethink this idea based on the verses and the definition of wrath that I quoted.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

That changes nothing. Very often the Bible uses words that express the actions of God using human terms. Surely you don't think God has a physical finger, do you? Yet we're told He wrote with His finger. Similarly we ought not to believe God's wrath is like man's wrath which is often based on irrationality. I assure you God is not like the men who throw acid on women's faces if the women reject their advances.

It doesn't matter what I think. I'm not second-guessing the Word of God if it doesn't make perfect sense to me.

Clearly, the wrath of God includes His anger toward ungodliness.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Similarly we ought not to believe God's wrath is like man's wrath which is often based on irrationality. I assure you God is not like the men who throw acid on women's faces if the women reject their advances.

This is a straw man. No one is saying that God is like this.

Col 3:5-7--Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

 

[Giuliano]

I mean receiving or rejecting the Person of Jesus Christ. It is written,

Rom 10:8, But what saith it <the righteousness of faith>? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That says nothing about the people who fail to accept him. What about people who never heard of him?

That passage is about people who accept Jesus and his message of Love.

That may be part of it, because we must receive Jesus as Lord. But there is more to it. Jesus is a Person, not just a set of moral standards. We must receive Him therefore, as a Person, in a relationship, into our hearts.

You perceive Jesus as an insecure male and a legalist too. The Bible consistently says we will be judged by our deeds. Those who do the deeds Jesus enjoys seeing are his true servants, not people who call him master but then disobey.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus wants us to love each other. Even people who never heard of Jesus can do that; and Jesus will reward them.

God punishes for their sins; and because they do not receive Him they are not forgiven. They are therefore punished indirectly over the fact that they rejected Him and the forgiveness that He offers.

You continue to see God as an insecure father or husband.

That may or may not be so. However God does get angry:

Psa 7:11, God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

I do think that those who are wicked wouldn't be wicked anymore if they were to receive Him. Therefore, since God is angry with their wickedness, their receiving Him, which would remedy their wickedness, would also remedy the anger that the Lord feels towards those who are wicked.

Now we're coming closer to agreeing. It's not God feeling angry at being personally rejected -- it's when His children treat each other poorly that makes Him angry.

I agree wholeheartedly. For @Jane_Doe22 has set forth something and compared it to the Lord, that is not to be compared to the Lord. God punishes sinners because He is the judge of all the earth; not because His love has been spurned by those to whom He has proposed marriage. The issue here is that He offers forgiveness concerning the sins that will put us in hell and along with that forgiveness comes a relationship with Him. In rejecting Him we would be rejecting forgiveness and a relationship. But He does not put us in hell because we rejected a relationship with Him; but because we rejected forgiveness and therefore the punishment for our sins will stand on the day of judgment. It is merely an unfortunate coincidence that the Lord offers a relationship with Him along with forgiveness; and this gives occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme.

I think you still need to go a bit further. Love cannot be forced. I can't kidnap a woman and tell her she must love me or I'll beat her. God doesn't behave like that either. The essence of Love is that it is voluntary; and the truth is sometimes people were the biggest sinners turn out to be the most loving and loyal saints once they give up on sin and selfishness.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

 

[Giuliano]

It doesn't matter what I think. I'm not second-guessing the Word of God if it doesn't make perfect sense to me.

Clearly, the wrath of God includes His anger toward ungodliness.

God is Love. Any attempt to get around that is creating an idol.

This is a straw man. No one is saying that God is like this.

Col 3:5-7--Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

It's been asserted in this thread if you read it. People said God wants us to marry Him, and He'll be angry if we don't agree.

What I would say is true is that God gets angry if His betrothed cheats on Him and plays the whore after knowing the Love of God.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I think you still need to go a bit further. Love cannot be forced. I can't kidnap a woman and tell her she must love me or I'll beat her. God doesn't behave like that either. The essence of Love is that it is voluntary; and the truth is sometimes people were the biggest sinners turn out to be the most loving and loyal saints once they give up on sin and selfishness.

I haven't been following this whole thread, but it doesn't matter. Paul tells us why the wrath of God is coming. There's no getting around this fact.

Col 3:5-7--Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

 

[Giuliano]

I think that you should rethink this idea based on the verses and the definition of wrath that I quoted.

And I think you should consider what a shepherd is and why shepherds behave as they do, and why God is portrayed as a shepherd. There's doctrine in it.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

And I think you should consider what a shepherd is and why shepherds behave as they do, and why God is portrayed as a shepherd. There's doctrine in it.

I know there is. I agree with you about this.

The fact that God is love, that He loves His sheep, doesn't change the fact that he is also a God of wrath. Both of these things are true about God at the same time. Not either/or......

 

[justbyfaith]

Surely you don't think God has a physical finger, do you?

God became a Man in Jesus Christ. So yes, God has a physical finger.

What about people who never heard of him?

Romans 1 speaks of the testimony and light of creation. Men are without excuse. Romans 2 speaks of the light of conscience. If someone obeys the first light they will receive the 2nd. If someone receives the 1st two lights, they will be given the third...the light of Christ, Romans 3...even as Abraham obeyed the 1st two lights and God showed up in his life.

You perceive Jesus as an insecure male and a legalist too.

Nope.

The Bible consistently says we will be judged by our deeds. Those who do the deeds Jesus enjoys seeing are his true servants, not people who call him master but then disobey.

Yes, those who are obedient to Jesus are His true servants. Those who have not received Him are dead in trespasses and sins, Ephesians 2:1. Therefore, if someone has not received Him, they cannot obey Him, their only inclination is towards disobedience.

Jesus wants us to love each other. Even people who never heard of Jesus can do that; and Jesus will reward them.

No, they cannot do that; for they are dead in trespasses and sins, Ephesians 2:1, 2 Corinthians 5:14.

You continue to see God as an insecure father or husband.

Nope.