Harmonized Seals, Trumpets, Bowls

[David Boyer]

Well, again you misrepresent me and misunderstand me and apparently the Bible. According to Romans 1:26, 27 gays will never enter heaven. Why would consider this warped misunderstanding. I think the question asked in my last post a minute ago will answer it. I'm done.

I am just following YOUR logic. The verse YOU use as a proof text doesn't say what you think it says in the Greek... Have you looked it up in a concordance?

00444 444 ἄνθρωπος [A)/NQRWPOS] {ánthrōpos} \anth'-ro-pos\
from 435 and ὤψ [W)/Y] {ṓps} (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:--certain, man.

I am aware of all the other verses about homosexuality, but you didn't reference them and the verse you did reference as a proof text leave that door open.
But the female door is still wide open so long as they are "not defiled by women" which would also seem to indicate your wife could be a 144k, but you couldn't.
Is that the real reason you are upset. Yep, that does sound sexist.

 

[marks]

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

I think the meaning here is "the people who live in an area 1/4 of the earth landmass."

I've heard that the area of the "10/40 Window" is about that size, but I haven't confirmed that for myself.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Where in the text of Revelation does it say it is symbolic? All other symbolic things get explained as symbols.

If some one is "slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held" would be a very nice definition of a martyr. How would you define martyr if not someone who is killed "because of the word of God, and of the testimony that they held"?

Sorry, I don't see that as anything approaching a proof text of Christ on Earth vs a recognition that Christ is sovereign and is dishing it out.

Where is any symbolism pointed out as symbolism or explained in Revelation 6?

No souls were slain on an alter, even it was for their testimony of God's Word. The alter is symbolism for being covered by the Atonement of the Lamb. Being slain is the removal of Adam's dead flesh. These two symbolic points cover the whole body of the church.


Certainly you don't think only those martyred are redeemed? That would mean many who claim to be saved are not, because they were never martyred.

 

[David Boyer]

Where is any symbolism pointed out as symbolism or explained in Revelation 6?

No souls were slain on an alter, even it was for their testimony of God's Word. The alter is symbolism for being covered by the Atonement of the Lamb. Being slain is the removal of Adam's dead flesh. These two symbolic points cover the whole body of the church.


Certainly you don't think only those martyred are redeemed? That would mean many who claim to be saved are not, because they were never martyred.

Where if symbolism explained well
Rev 1:20 stars, candlesticks.
Rev 7:14 the white robed
Rev 9:4 Incense
Rev 11:4 olive trees + candlesticks
...
Rev 17:15 Waters
Rev 17:9-10 Heads
Rev7:12 Horns
...
to name a few.

Where do you get "slain on an alter"(altar actually)... the text says under the altar. Rev 6:9. I never said anyone was slain on an altar.
I don't see that explanation for an altar anywhere in Revelation. You are the one bringing up the idea of "the redeemed", which I don't know were you are getting this from our discussion.

 

[Timtofly]

A little different that my view... but I like it.
I see Revelation as a director having been given the outline of the movie script. Not every detail, but the main themes and brushstrokes are there. The exact who, what, where... not always included, but the shape is very evident. (I find that this description is easier for some people to grasp, not a perfect description, but workable)

I concur.

ps are you sure that the 144k are male? The Greek word for "men" in Rev 14:4 is anthropos and it is gender neutral. Just throwing that in because it gets a rise out of people. Please don't start a fight over it. I just don't like definitive statements without challenge.

Revelation 14:4

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins."

Were they also not defiled with men?

 

[Timtofly]

I think the meaning here is "the people who live in an area 1/4 of the earth landmass."

I've heard that the area of the "10/40 Window" is about that size, but I haven't confirmed that for myself.

Much love!

Well if it is the land with all the population, that could mean 90% of humanity would still die in the 4th Seal. Not sure why 25% is wrong. In the Trumpets it is 33%

 

[Timtofly]

Where if symbolism explained well
Rev 1:20 stars, candlesticks.
Rev 7:14 the white robed
Rev 9:4 Incense
Rev 11:4 olive trees + candlesticks
...
Rev 17:15 Waters
Rev 17:9-10 Heads
Rev7:12 Horns
...
to name a few.

Where do you get "slain on an alter"(altar actually)... the text says under the altar. Rev 6:9. I never said anyone was slain on an altar.
I don't see that explanation for an altar anywhere in Revelation. You are the one bringing up the idea of "the redeemed", which I don't know were you are getting this from our discussion.

Well they were slain and ended up under the alter, in your alter lingo.

So you think unless there is an explanation, every phrase is literal?

Slain on the alter ending up under the altar in your literal scenario.

 

[David Boyer]

Well they were slain and ended up under the alter, in your alter lingo.

So you think unless there is an explanation, every phrase is literal?

Slain on the alter ending up under the altar in your literal scenario.

Where do you get slain on the altar?

 

[David Boyer]

Revelation 14:4

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins."

Were they also not defiled with men?

According to your proof text... just work out all the logical possibilities.

"Not with a woman" so has not had sex with a woman....
"Virgin" many persons would say that means penetrative sex...

The allowed permutations would work out as...

Heterosexual man who has not had penetrative sex with any human.
Gay man who has not had penetrative sex with any human.
Transvestite who has not had penetrative sex with any human.
Paedophile who had not had penetrative sex with any human.
Zoophile who has not had penetrative sex with any human

And the same for the female side of the coin.

Hetero woman, Lesbian, Cross-dresser, Paedo, and Animal lover... so long as they are not defiled by women or have penetrative sex with humans.

Remember, you asked for the list, by not letting this go.

 

[David Boyer]

Well if it is the land with all the population, that could mean 90% of humanity would still die in the 4th Seal. Not sure why 25% is wrong. In the Trumpets it is 33%

You need a remedial English class to understand the differences.
It isn't the percentages it is the definition of the word "earth".

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Well if it is the land with all the population, that could mean 90% of humanity would still die in the 4th Seal. Not sure why 25% is wrong. In the Trumpets it is 33%

My take on this is that these
two percentages are two sets of catastrophes unrelated to eachother. Death comes to 25 % of the population just from the four horsemen bringing wars, famine and pestilence. That is accumulative and overlaps the other causes of death: massive worldwide earthquake, 1/3 of the planet being on fire, super volcanic eruptions and possibly an Asteroid which both cause massive tsunamis that sink 1/3 of the sea vessels in the world and kill all coastal peoples in 1/3 of the coastal regions.100 lb. hailstones can be created by trillions of tons of water that are splashed many miles upward into the atmosphere from an asteroid striking the sea.
So by the time the Seventh Trumpet is blown, 8 billion x .25 = 2 billion die PLUS 1/3 out of the remaining 6 billion leaves 4 million. 2.7 billion Christians are taken up, leaving 1.3 billion to suffer further judgments in the Seven Bowls of wrath. God protects a remnant somehow through this but they only account for a small portion of the remaining population, maybe tens of millions. So I'm thinking around 5 billion will die. I could be wrong. ???
Maybe ... just maybe, God will be more merciful than that and after every eye sees Him, Muslims who at least accepted Jesus as a prophet but believed in a distorted view of God, (Allah) and the Koran (a false religious book), may cause them to repent, abandon their religion (a false concept of God and life as it should be) and reach out for Jesus? I scratch my head with that one but after my rebellious mother, who had a smorgasbord of false believes all her life and believed Jesus was nothing more than a good man who was crucified (not for her sins which she was adament about not having any), miraculously changed and believed in Jesus three days before she died at 86 years old! After that, my view of a much more merciful God was a pleasant surprise and relief. After 30 years of chipping away at my moms false beliefs, I about gave up - God did not. He was there all along and so with all those who have love in their hearts regardless of what they believe, God may lift their veils too. Then of course much less than 5 billion will die.
After our resurrection, will it be too late, even if they haven't taken the Mark of the Beast? ???
If many who have been on the fence about Jesus, come to the truth after the Resurrection of the Church is realized, that will be wonderful.
BUT, what happens when the Church is taken up? The Holy Spirit, The Restrainer, is taken out of the way too. This may mean that no one can be converted after such time. During the time of the Seven Bowls it appears that no one repents, but they all curse God.
So it is, as it's been for thousands of years, we just don't know for sure.

 

[David Boyer]

My take on this is that these
two percentages are two sets of catastrophes unrelated to eachother. Death comes to 25 % of the population just from the four horsemen bringing wars, famine and pestilence. That is accumulative and overlaps the other causes of death: massive worldwide earthquake, 1/3 of the planet being on fire, super volcanic eruptions and possibly an Asteroid which both cause massive tsunamis that sink 1/3 of the sea vessels in the world and kill all coastal peoples in 1/3 of the coastal regions.100 lb. hailstones can be created by trillions of tons of water that are splashed many miles upward into the atmosphere from an asteroid striking the sea.
So by the time the Seventh Trumpet is blown, 8 billion x .25 = 2 billion die PLUS 1/3 out of the remaining 6 billion leaves 4 million. 2.7 billion Christians are taken up, leaving 1.3 billion to suffer further judgments in the Seven Bowls of wrath. God protects a remnant somehow through this but they only account for a small portion of the remaining population, maybe tens of millions. So I'm thinking around 5 billion will die. I could be wrong. ???
Maybe ... just maybe, God will be more merciful than that and after every eye sees Him, Muslims who at least accepted Jesus as a prophet but believed in a distorted view of God, (Allah) and the Koran (a false religious book), may cause them to repent, abandon their religion (a false concept of God and life as it should be) and reach out for Jesus? I scratch my head with that one but after my rebellious mother, who had a smorgasbord of false believes all her life and believed Jesus was nothing more than a good man who was crucified (not for her sins which she was adament about not having any), miraculously changed and believed in Jesus three days before she died at 86 years old! After that, my view of a much more merciful God was a pleasant surprise and relief. After 30 years of chipping away at my moms false beliefs, I about gave up - God did not. He was there all along and so with all those who have love in their hearts regardless of what they believe, God may lift their veils too. Then of course much less than 5 billion will die.
After our resurrection, will it be too late, even if they haven't taken the Mark of the Beast? ???
If many who have been on the fence about Jesus, come to the truth after the Resurrection of the Church is realized, that will be wonderful.
BUT, what happens when the Church is taken up? The Holy Spirit, The Restrainer, is taken out of the way too. This may mean that no one can be converted after such time. During the time of the Seven Bowls it appears that no one repents, but they all curse God.
So it is, as it's been for thousands of years, we just don't know for sure.

The 25% probably doesn't reference an amount of people killed. power was given to the horsemen over 1/4 of the earth. If that 1/4 of the earth includes China (for example) the percentage of persons killed would be much higher than 25%. Why is this so hard to understand. 1/4 of the landmass is turned over to the horsemen... if that 1/4 is Antarctica and the Sahara then almost nobody gets killed.

"After our resurrection"???? When??? Where????
So you think there is a resurrection of the Church and then a Rapture of the Church?
And you think the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. Okay...

 

[Timtofly]

Where do you get slain on the altar?

Where do you get they were souls under the alter? Don't you think the soul ended up under the alter, the moment they were slain? How far are you taking this alter as being literal?

Normally one slays the object on the altar, not under the altar. The under part is where they go after being slain.

Why not just accept this is symbolic of being covered by the Atonement of the Cross? Jesus is the figurative Lamb, but was crucified on a Cross, not on some altar.

If you can't take your literal interpretation to a logical conclusion, why stick with a literal interpretation?

All of Adam's flesh has to be physically slain, ie killed to shed that flesh. Yet the majority went to sheol, instead of being covered by the Atonement. Even while waiting in Abraham's bosom, they were still figuratively under the alter, that is covered by the shed blood of the Lamb as the Atonement Covenant. Even before the physical point in time of the Cross.

Yet you seem to think this is just a one time phenomenon only literal at the 5th Seal?

 

[David Boyer]

Where do you get they were souls under the alter? Don't you think the soul ended up under the alter, the moment they were slain? How far are you taking this alter as being literal?

Normally one slays the object on the altar, not under the altar. The under part is where they go after being slain.

Why not just accept this is symbolic of being covered by the Atonement of the Cross? Jesus is the figurative Lamb, but was crucified on a Cross, not on some altar.

If you can't take your literal interpretation to a logical conclusion, why stick with a literal interpretation?

All of Adam's flesh has to be physically slain, ie killed to shed that flesh. Yet the majority went to sheol, instead of being covered by the Atonement. Even while waiting in Abraham's bosom, they were still figuratively under the alter, that is covered by the shed blood of the Lamb as the Atonement Covenant. Even before the physical point in time of the Cross.

Yet you seem to think this is just a one time phenomenon only literal at the 5th Seal?

Where do I get that there are souls under the altar
Rev 6:9
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held

I never said they were slain on, under, near, beside the altar. That is your fabrication.

I don't accept that is is symbolic of what you say, because that is not what the Bible says.
If all of Adam's flesh hast to be physically slain, what about Enoch and Elijah?
It fits the narrative better that the slain that are found under the altar are the martyrs during the Revelation time period, imo.

 

[Timtofly]

According to your proof text... just work out all the logical possibilities.

"Not with a woman" so has not had sex with a woman....
"Virgin" many persons would say...

The allowed permutations would work out as...

Heterosexual man who has not had penetrative sex with any human.
Gay man who has not had sex with any human.
Transvestite who has not had sex with any human.
Paedophile who had not had sex with any human.
Zoophile who has not had sex with any human

And the same for the female side of the coin.

Hetero woman, Lesbian, Cross-dresser, Paedo, and Animal lover...

Remember, you asked for the list, by not letting this go.

No, you claimed they could be women. Thus you had to generate a list, because you changed the dynamic of Scripture, which clearly pointed out that they were men, not defiled by women.

I asked are you willing to change the text to fit your women not defiled by men. You could have just said they were humans not defiled by humans. Except "women" is not as easy to justify as mere humanity like you claim the word "men" is. And yes the word is "gune" meaning woman.

So if you want to keep arguing, you are the sexist one to claim all humanity can only be defiled by women, and not men, clearly making women out to be the bad influence on these disciples. Instead of just men who were defiled in the normal way with normal sex.

While I am sure God could redeem even the most absurd among us dabbling in bizarre sexual experiments, that is hardly the point of these 144k Israelites. The miracle is that in this day and age there are 144k who have not had sex period, in this sex crazed world. But the context is that they are males, not whomever.

 

[David Boyer]

No, you claimed they could be women. Thus you had to generate a list, because you changed the dynamic of Scripture, which clearly pointed out that they were men, not defiled by women.

I asked are you willing to change the text to fit your women not defiled by men. You could have just said they were humans not defiled by humans. Except "women" is not as easy to justify as mere humanity like you claim the word "men" is. And yes the word is "gune" meaning woman.

So if you want to keep arguing, you are the sexist one to claim all humanity can only be defiled by women, and not men, clearly making women out to be the bad influence on these disciples. Instead of just men who were defiled in the normal way with normal sex.

While I am sure God could redeem even the most absurd among us dabbling in bizarre sexual experiments, that is hardly the point of these 144k Israelites. The miracle is that in this day and age there are 144k who have not had sex period, in this sex crazed world. But the context is that they are males, not whomever.

You appear to be misrepresenting my arguments. Is it out of confusion, stubbornness or wilful misrepresentation?
I haven't claimed anything about the phrase "not defiled by women". I am not claiming that women are the bad influence, and I don't believe they are.
Rev 14:4b "These were redeemed from among (humans), being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." This is how I would read it in the Greek.
That's all I am saying. You are the one making a definitive statement. Also isn't being just lustful toward another, adultery. Matt 5:28 But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So how about the 144k being children? Too young to be "defiled"?

You are the one limiting the text. I just point out your hypocrisy. As for me being sexist... I'm not the one saying the women defile men, just reading the text you provided as your proof.

 

[Timtofly]

You need a remedial English class to understand the differences.
It isn't the percentages it is the definition of the word "earth".

Or the definition of mankind? The earth is not being killed nor destroyed.

"And power was given unto them (Death and sheol) over the fourth part of the earth (the souls of mankind), to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Can you kill the earth with a sword (war)?
Can you kill the earth with hunger (famine)?
Can you kill the earth with death (plague)?
Can you kill the earth with wild animals?

Can you place the earth in sheol?

We know this is figurative because Death and sheol are places souls are located.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him."

Places don't ride around on horses. Souls end up in Death and sheol simply because they are killed by war, famine, plague, and wild animals.

Today's symbolic technology would be Death and sheol are huge vacuum sweepers gobbling up the souls of humanity. If you think they only remove all souls from the Americas, then I guess when God moves north and south America back into the European and African landscape, no one will be alive on those continents to see it happen. Those in Australia and across the Pacific will have all the fun of a roller coaster ride back to the mainland.

 

[David Boyer]

Or the definition of mankind? The earth is not being killed nor destroyed.

"And power was given unto them (Death and sheol) over the fourth part of the earth (the souls of mankind), to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Can you kill the earth with a sword (war)?
Can you kill the earth with hunger (famine)?
Can you kill the earth with death (plague)?
Can you kill the earth with wild animals?

Can you place the earth in sheol?

We know this is figurative because Death and sheol are places souls are located.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him."

Places don't ride around on horses. Souls end up in Death and sheol simply because they are killed by war, famine, plague, and wild animals.

Today's symbolic technology would be Death and sheol are huge vacuum sweepers gobbling up the souls of humanity. If you think they only remove all souls from the Americas, then I guess when God moves north and south America back into the European and African landscape, no one will be alive on those continents to see it happen. Those in Australia and across the Pacific will have all the fun of a roller coaster ride back to the mainland.

You said ..." over the fourth part of the earth (the souls of mankind)," but that is not how the word "earth" is in Greek... the original language. Earth means land.

1093 ge ghay
contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the
solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants
in each application):--country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

Power was given to the horsemen over a specific geographical area (1/4 of the earth) not the entire earth to effect 1/4 of the population.
You don't seem to grasp the difference.
Back to school with you. Take the chip off your shoulder... take a deep breath... relax... and reread.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't accept that is is symbolic of what you say, because that is not what the Bible says.
If all of Adam's flesh hast to be physically slain, what about Enoch and Elijah?
It fits the narrative better that the slain that are found under the altar are the martyrs during the Revelation time period, imo.

There are no martyred in the "Revelation time period". That is your fabrication.

Enoch/Elijah were translated out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Do you think at the rapture the redeemed are killed and then resurrected, or changed/translated out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh?

You want it to refer to only souls slain in the first 4 Seals? Where does Revelation 6:1-8 claim people will be martyred any where in the first 4 Seals?

When exactly do you even think the Seals are being opened? What exactly do you mean by this "Revelation period"?

 

[marks]

Back to school with you. Take the chip off your shoulder...

I believe you would benefit from listening to yourself . . .

Much love!