Has a Christian essentially DENIED the faith if they're constantly jerks to others?
- Thread starter Patrick1966
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I believe that Ezekiel 18 covers this topic about being candidates for the second death with no changes mentioned about after a person physically dying before they have a chance to repent.
Ezekiel 18: - A False Proverb Refuted
18:1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the fertile field of Israel, saying:
'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 "As I live," says the Lord God, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 "Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall suffer the second death.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbour's wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully —
He is just;
He shall surely live!"
Says the Lord God.
10 "If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things,
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbour's wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase —
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall die the second death;
His blood shall be upon him.
14 "If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbour's wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes —
He shall suffer the second death for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
18 "As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for/in[1] his iniquity.
Turn and Live
19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die/suffer the second death. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die {the second death}. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die {the second death}?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall suffer the second death.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies {the second death}. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not suffer the second death. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, everyone according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed and get yourselves a refurbished heart and a fresh spirit. For why should you suffer the second death, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies {the second death}," says the Lord God. "Therefore, turn and live!"
Now if the Bible is unclear to you as to what it is teaching, then repent before it is to late and you remain a candidate for the second death after you die.
[1] The consequences of unrepentant iniquities is to die the second death, therefore “he dies in his iniquities.”
Ah Patrick, Jesus does not torture mankind if they chose to not acknowledge him as their Lord and Saviour. People are allowed to exercise their free choice and then suffer the consequences of that free choice.
Patrick there is a really big wide and deep ditch between what we respectfully call God's truth. Your truth is based on a flawed understanding because of the way you read the scriptures.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Maybe because I am ex-military.
I do not necessarily see violence as a bad thing.
Defense of our country….
Defense of our families…..
Police defending us…..
Smacking some one to make them straighten up and fly right, as the cliché goes.
Lets say some one on this forum express a belief that will get him and others in Hell’s fire.
What should you do?
A. Freedom of religion….say nothing.
B. Everything is a matter of option….Say God bless you.
C. Tell him he could be right…have a nice day.
D. Tell him he is wrong and explain why.
I am for D. Tell him he is wrong and explain why….Smooth sailing.
Except a lot of times if you tell them they are wrong they will get rude and testy.
Should we…?
A. Ignore it and just take it….
B. Warn him if he is going to get rude you will not talk to him. He has essentially shuts you up by being rude to you….
C. Get rude back at him at the same level….
D. Leave the forum.
E. Hit the secret bang key on your laptop or phone and his devise blows up in his face!
D. Stop talking to him and pray for his delivery to Hell.
There are times I have picked A…B....C….I have held back on E.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
There is a problem....
Some would say if your dad spanked you he was a jerk.
And you can be nice to some one as you watch them walk off a cliff.
On the contrary, you have to reject a plethora of scripture that says that, in the end, ALL people will be with God.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Hey I am better looking than a troll
And trolls do not have a sense of humor
Amen brother, thank you for sharing would agree with you on what you have to say here Journey. Have a lot of thoughts in my head today about many things concerning my very own life. God is good, and to go around trying to fight and bicker, with the world at large, Jesus came to save it and we should be considerant of others and there views, even if they happen to be gay or transgender.
So many people look at the world around them, when the reality should be the focus of God himself, first - and everything that he has done to reconcile the world through Christ, and that even though people are in the government and make laws, and the society can submit to change them that is fine.
Focus should be individualistic, and not so much as a group - which would subject one individual with another - and the choice is to love, or hate. Love spite flaws, is good, love to help your neighbor is having trouble is good, love to submit a crime to law enforcement when it is seen, is good (despite what one may think in the world as the worldly wisdom is demonic, compared to the heavenly which is pure).
Thank you for your comments.
There is no doubt in my mind that as you say, as Jesus did I am very hyper-critical of 'social clubs' in churches. As there are some churches that don't even touch the bible, just say jesus jesus jesus, holy spirit holy spirit holy spirit, and for me I find it ridiculous and stunting growth in reality but again that is just my observation.
In a group setting a teacher should be using the bible and allow freedom of thought, and no dogmatic stances and to encourage others to think and work these things out also among themselves, even though earlier I said the focus should be individualistic but if you desire to teach, the benefit is not for the teacher but those being taught.
It's like people whom submit to me there belief about the end times are here now, my response at this point if they share with me about those things is hey I love you, and may the spirit guide, you know? Instead trying to prove a point and be right, cause sometimes being right in these manners perhaps is overrated.
Peace to you, and glad to know that you are someone who has troubles to, we all do,
Matthew
thelord's_pearl
Well-Known Member
Yes a Christian has essentially denied the faith if they're constantly jerks to others. They're not real Christians. A real Christian would follow God. knowing little scripture is a matter of being a new Christian and the growing process. Don't need to worry about that.
Ah Patrick, you love to take a verse out of context to support your argument without presenting the true context in which that verse is found. Can you explain why the Prophet, Jeremiah, is grieved? Can you put the Book of Lamentations into the period of time that the prophet is grieving over? Can you explain why the prophet is grieving?
Below is and extended passage in which Lamentations 3:31 is found: -
19 Remember my affliction and roaming,
The wormwood and the bitterness.
20 My soul still remembers
And bows down within me.
21 This I recall to my mind,
Therefore I have hope.
22 Through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed,
Because His compassions fail not.
23 They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
24 “The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“Therefore I hope in Him!”
25 The Lord is good to those who wait for Him,
To the soul who seeks Him.
26 It is good that one should hope and wait quietly
For the salvation of the Lord.
27 It is good for a man to bear
The yoke in his youth.
28 Let him sit alone and keep silent,
Because God has laid it on him;
29 Let him put his mouth in the dust—
There may yet be hope.
30 Let him give his cheek to the one who strikes him,
And be full of reproach.
31 For the Lord will not cast off forever.
32 Though He causes grief,
Yet He will show compassion
According to the multitude of His mercies.
33 For He does not afflict willingly,
Nor grieve the children of men.
34 To crush under one’s feet
All the prisoners of the earth,
35 To turn aside the justice due a man
Before the face of the Most High,
36Or subvert a man in his cause—
The Lord does not approve.
37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass,
When the Lord has not commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That woe and well-being proceed?
39 Why should a living man complain,
For the punishment of his sins?
40 Let us search out and examine our ways,
And turn back to the Lord;
41 Let us lift our hearts and hands
To God in heaven.
42 We have transgressed and rebelled;
You have not pardoned.
43 You have covered Yourself with anger
And pursued us;
You have slain and not pitied.
44 You have covered Yourself with a cloud,
That prayer should not pass through.
45 You have made us an offscouring and refuse
In the midst of the peoples.
46 All our enemies
Have opened their mouths against us.
47 Fear and a snare have come upon us,
Desolation and destruction.
48 My eyes overflow with rivers of water
For the destruction of the daughter of my people.
49 My eyes flow and do not cease,
Without interruption,
50 Till the Lord from heaven
Looks down and sees.
51 My eyes bring suffering to my soul
Because of all the daughters of my city.
52 My enemies without cause
Hunted me down like a bird.
53 They put an end to my life in the pit
And threw stones at me.
54 The waters flowed over my head;
I said, “I am cut off!”
55 I called on Your name, O Lord,
From the lowest pit.
56 You have heard my voice:
“Do not hide Your ear
From my sighing, from my cry for help.”
57 You drew near on the day I called on You,
And said, “Do not fear!”
58 O Lord, You have pleaded the case for my soul;
You have redeemed my life.
59 O Lord, You have seen how I am wronged;
Judge my case.
60 You have seen all their vengeance,
All their schemes against me.
61 You have heard their reproach, O Lord,
All their schemes against me,
62 The lips of my enemies
And their whispering against me all the day.
63 Look at their sitting down and their rising up;
I am their taunting song.
64 Repay them, O Lord,
According to the work of their hands.
65 Give them a veiled heart;
Your curse be upon them!
66 In Your anger,
Pursue and destroy them
From under the heavens of the Lord.
But as shown above, you ignore the context of a verse and force a very different context for that verse from the context that it is found in.
It is you who has rejected a plethora of scripture that clearly states a very different position.
thelord's_pearl
Well-Known Member
I don't know, which brings a thought to mind. What if the Christian was brought up in a family that was mean-spirited. That would likely cause a child to grow up like their parents, and if they have difficulty being nice to people then they could still be a real Christian as long as they tried their best, or perhaps God will bring healing to them and change them later.
Love your enemies
God blesses the righteous and the unrighteous alike until judgement.
Love has limits, and the limit of love is the boundary between delusion of grandeur and the reality of the fruit of sinful behaviour and a sinful heart.
We love because sin is slavery to a belief in grabbing what is not ours, even if held for a short time, because no one is worthy of respect or position and accepting who and what we are is just wrong because it is so unfair. So our mere presence generates more harm and pain to others while we glory in our put down success and domination.
We hate sin and those who follow sinful actions, while knowing they are slaves to the very behaviours they are part of, and knowing in Jesus the Kingdom of love and life will reign openly and supreme on His return. So our love is based on the possibility of sinners turning to God and repenting, which is possible, by Gods will and grace, but this is not unconditional love as some claim. We also love others because that is what love does, and treats others as equals worthy of respect and space in our presence and that of others.
If we invented a machine that could make cars but the cars it made were always faulty and did not work. What value is that machine unless it can be adjusted and changed so the cars it makes work and function as required. Now if the choice is destroy the machine or wait until it changes, which is impossible without a request for help, where is the injustice in destroying the machine and just keeping those which work?
God bless you
Do interactions cause others to get angry?
Yes. I experienced on forums others getting so angry they could not respond and had to go away for days to calm down.
Let me explain. Some folk grow up in a world of rules which they follow to the letter, or as best they can. An incident happens in their life and this group to which they were faithful throws them out. The pain and anger is deep and life changing. Over time they pick themselves up and make a new life and belief system which answers their pain and anger, painting their past friends as enemies and their beliefs as the worst thing in the whole world.
Along comes me. A few sentences and out pours this emotional vitriol. There is nothing I can say or do which can unpick this because it is about me becoming their past hated group and so I must die.
So what is the problem? Clearly it is the hurt and pain and whatever happened and unpicking this from their past.
I knew a good christian friend of mine who hated catholics from his youth. It took 6 years of walking with Jesus before he finally could see people who were catholics as people with their lives mixed up as they were, like everyone else and without the hatred.
So I know how difficult this can be, and how I am an innocent victim of this unresolved pain and anger. But this is where Jesus stood, before Pilate and the rulers of Jerusalem. Their pain and anger was aimed at Him and He forgave them because they did not know what they were doing. And likewise we, when the light is switched on, see the anger launched on us talking about loving God and others, has nothing to do with our words but their hurt and sin and closed mind and so likewise can forgive them because they do not know what they are doing.
God bless you
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