Has anyone changed their mind...?

[Helen]

Great post @brakelite You have a very gentle spirit. I could learn some things from you in that area

 

[marks]

The most drastic and radical change for me came 3 years ago when I decided to seriously study what grounds we have for our acceptance of the trinity. It was the one doctrine my church taught (quite similar to any other denomination) which I hadn't, in all the 20 or more years being an Adventist, actually looked at, question, or confirm in my own mind that I could with any certainty explain it, teach it, or say to myself, "yes, that must be true".
The first thing I discovered was that the original pioneers in our church did not believe in the trinity. At least not as the church teaches it today. So I investigated to find out, why not? And what was it they did believe? This for me has been an interesting journey. Many who have taken this same journey have been disfellowshiped, pastors have lost their credentials, and their jobs, and my current stance has set me at odds with the rest of my family, and of course with my church, although there are some who do agree with me. But in as much as I have thus far found, determined to believe what the Bible teaches and no more, excluding all assumptions, I am at peace with where I am. But we are talking about the nature of God. My main thoughts that have been predominant throughout this journey into the unknown, is the very fact that God's nature is unknowable, except in those few things that He has revealed. So while I can fully accept the 'Godhead' as scripture reveals the divine nature, that indeed there is a Father...He has a Son (which I believe is literal, not metaphorical) and they share the same Spirit for God is Spirit, I am loathe to go further and attempt to understand how those 3 entities relate to one another and how they do in fact form, if indeed they do, "one God". So far I only see the Father as the One True God. But I see the Son as divine because He is His Father's Son...God born of God.
I conclude that questioning further, attempting to formularise any belief based on such flimsy information, and then isolating others because they have doubts as to the exact formula you have invented, is hazardous in the extreme. Even worse, setting up a trinity "doctrine" and making it a criteria for fellowship or membership in any church or forum or any other religious body is arrogance and pride in the extreme.
Yet I enjoy discussing the topic. Not to convince others to believe as I do, but simply to accept my right to believe it, because what I do believe is based on the Bible. It may be more simple than others can tolerate, but I don't se that as my problem. And more, it still leaves for me plenty of room for future revelation and change. One never knows, maybe one day I will come to a point when I once again accept the trinity as taught by my church. But I doubt it.

Hi brakelite,

One of the reason I love you is that you are someone who differs from me on some things I call key doctrines, and yet there seems no question in my mind of your filling with the Spirit. Some would say I'm wrong to think so. But I think so.

I know also that the early church wasn't trinitarian. From the things I've read it seems like they were all, "What was that??" Was He God, Not God, Who exactly was/is this Jesus? And after a couple of hundred years they sorted out some ideas.

For me, it comes down to the overlap between Jesus and YHWH in Scripture.

One thing, my understanding of the trinity is slighty different from what I'm taught in churches. But I don't see the Son in the OT. "You are my son, today I have begotten you." "You shall call his name Jesus . . ." There was a time when the Son became the Son, and was named Jesus.

I'm thinking that before Jesus' birth, this was who we read of in "the Angel of the LORD", or, "the Messenger of YHWH", God coming to man. Him Who Abraham spoke with under the oak.

It may be more simple than others can tolerate, but I don't see that as my problem.

there is a Father...He has a Son (which I believe is literal, not metaphorical) and they share the same Spirit for God is Spirit

These are straight from Scripture, so far as I can tell!

Much love!
mark

 

[Helen]

Hi brakelite,

One of the reason I love you is that you are someone who differs from me on some things I call key doctrines, and yet there seems no question in my mind of your filling with the Spirit. Some would say I'm wrong to think so. But I think so.

I know also that the early church wasn't trinitarian. From the things I've read it seems like they were all, "What was that??" Was He God, Not God, Who exactly was/is this Jesus? And after a couple of hundred years they sorted out some ideas.

For me, it comes down to the overlap between Jesus and YHWH in Scripture.

One thing, my understanding of the trinity is slighty different from what I'm taught in churches. But I don't see the Son in the OT. "You are my son, today I have begotten you." "You shall call his name Jesus . . ." There was a time when the Son became the Son, and was named Jesus.

I'm thinking that before Jesus' birth, this was who we read of in "the Angel of the LORD", or, "the Messenger of YHWH", God coming to man. Him Who Abraham spoke with under the oak.




These are straight from Scripture, so far as I can tell!

Much love!
mark

I too like reading @brakelite 's post ..as you say he is one of the few, and thank the Lord we do still have a few on here, that knows how to disagree respectfully ...if indeed there is a disagreement.

He has a very gentle spirit as do a a few others here.
And we can feel 'safe' when posting to them.

 

[marks]

He has a very gentle spirit as do a a few others here.
And we can feel 'safe' when posting to them.

And that sure makes a nice difference!

Much love!

 

[farouk]

I too like reading @brakelite 's post ..as you say he is one of the few, and thank the Lord we do still have a few on here, that knows how to disagree respectfully ...if indeed there is a disagreement.

He has a very gentle spirit as do a a few others here.
And we can feel 'safe' when posting to them.

Maybe I myself barge around like a bull...

 

[Helen]

Maybe I myself barge around like a bull...

No my dear friend, you don't post enough 'content' to be offensive.

 

[Episkopos]

No my dear friend, you don't post enough 'content' to be offensive.

It really is...push the content gently in love!

 

[Hisman]

I have an associated question. If we come to a forum, or any Bible study group, and expect that before we would change our mind on any subject we must demand a "thus sayeth the Lord" in support, does that not presuppose that such a thing is possible? That our current beliefs may not be supported Biblically, and if a sufficiently knowledgeable person can convince me of a truth with which I am not familiar, or that is contrary to where I now stand, I am open to change? So if we can ask such a thing, does this mean that we are not sure right now whether our current beliefs are in fact Biblical? How many of us have come to the Lord and openly, honestly, and with a hunger and passion for truth, pleaded with God for fresh learning experience of Him, and from Him?
How many of us have blindly (or perhaps with squinted eyes) joined a church and meekly taken aboard the current beliefs of said church, without thoroughly examining scripture to make sure that what the preachers and teachers were talking about, were actually found there? How many young newly born again Christians join the first church down the street that sounds exciting, has the right "music", speaks his "language", and is "cool", and unquestioningly accepts everything they are told? How many of us have actually sat back and asked ourselves of our own church, is that right? I suspect there are many who have been so enmeshed in their church's teachings, they wouldn't dare consider any other teaching for fear they are going to go to hell because they are already convinced everyone else is a heretic and only their church is filled with the "Holy Spirit" and has the "truth".

Both of your posts were very good indeed.
It seems you come here with an open heart...
I agree , us older folk ( if you are) seem to have had decades to settle on what we believe is -"thus sayeth the Lord."
Even so, I still try to be teachable. Once I think that I know it all...then I have no need of the body of Christ.

Bless you and your house.

 

[marks]

Both of your posts were very good indeed.
It seems you come here with an open heart...
I agree , us older folk ( if you are) seem to have had decades to settle on what we believe is -"thus sayeth the Lord."
Even so, I still try to be teachable. Once I think that I know it all...then I have no need of the body of Christ.

Bless you and your house.

Having had decades to learn helps us to understand the value of remaining teachable, and to test all ideas - including our own - especially our own - against Scripture.

Much love!

 

[brakelite]

Both of your posts were very good indeed.
It seems you come here with an open heart...
I agree , us older folk ( if you are) seem to have had decades to settle on what we believe is -"thus sayeth the Lord."
Even so, I still try to be teachable. Once I think that I know it all...then I have no need of the body of Christ.

Bless you and your house.

You fellas are getting so effusive with your compliments is a wonder you can't detect the blushing from across the ocean.
And my wife was shocked when I reminded her that I'm just 3 years away from 70. So yeah, I think I can be classified as being a part of that older and hopefully wiser generation.

 

[brakelite]

I'm thinking that before Jesus' birth, this was who we read of in "the Angel of the LORD", or, "the Messenger of YHWH", God coming to man. Him Who Abraham spoke with under the oak.

I agree. No-one could communicate directly with the Father because sin interposed and made such direct contact untenable, and dangerous to man's health. So communication came to man through God's 'word'. This was in the form of His Son...in the OT the Son came in the form of a man or angel, depending on the circumstance, and my church believes His OT name was Michael (one like God). This we in no way accept that it diminishes from the deity of Christ. He was still His Father's Son, begotten, not created, in eternity of the Father as a literal offspring (how we are not informed and to conjecture pro or con is holy ground with shoes on) and appointed archangel...head of the angels...Lord of hosts.
Archangel for us does not of necessity designate Him as a created being. No more so than it means that the Commander in Chief of the US armed forces must be a military person.
As for an OT reference to the Son, try Proverbs 30:4

 

[marks]

As for an OT reference to the Son, try Proverbs 30:4

That's a great verse, and very intriguing!

Michael, I've studied on that one and I'm satisfied that this is someone else.

How do you look at where the Scripture says, You are my son, today I have begotten you"?

Much love!
Mark

 

[Marymog]

Conversation with Mary is like trying to nail jello to the wall, but I love her Spirit. She’d rather be right than happy

Proud Mary?

I am very happy....Thank you.

Do you think you are right when you post your beliefs on this forum?

Curious Mary

Maybe @Taken or @bygrace could answer the same question since they 'liked' your condescending post.

 

[Marymog]

This is interesting Mary, how many Christians have you baptized?

Second time asking:

I have not had the opportunity to baptize anyone and no one has asked me to baptize them. When given the opportunity to I will fulfill His commandment.

You?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

( chuckling here )

Hi Hisman,

I think this is the first time I have notice you post something....

Why would you chuckle at a valid question?

Curious Mary

 

[Helen]

I am very happy....Thank you.

Do you think you are right when you post your beliefs on this forum?

Curious Mary

Maybe @Taken or @bygrace could answer the same question since they 'liked' your condescending post.

Mary, I started this thread..and you have more than yoyr fair shared of water baptism post. Now, if you wish to continue asking and arguing the same old points. Then please start you own thread.
I said already that I am tired of it. Now please stop.

And obviously YES... @Waiting on him , @Taken and myself, all all the others are pretty sure that what we post is what we believe...

Why would anyone on this thread waste time posting what they didn't believe.

Thank you.
Have a good day...Helen

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I started this thread..and you have more than yoyr fair shared of water baptism post. Now, if you wish to continue asking and arguing the same old points. Then please start you own thread.
I said already that I am tired of it. Now please stop.

And obviously YES... @Waiting on him , @Taken and myself, all all the others are pretty sure that what we post is what we believe...

Why would anyone on this thread waste time posting what they didn't believe.

Thank you.
Have a good day...Helen

Hi Helen,

Soooo are you saying that water baptism doesn't fit the subject matter (Has anyone changed their mind...?) of this discussion? That is why you want me to stop talking about it and start my own thread?

A little bit of clarification here. The statement from @Waiting on him was that I would rather be right than be happy. I didn't ask him about posting what he believes. I asked: Do you think you are right when you post your beliefs on this forum?

I think I am right when I post what I believe. I suspect you and everyone on here believes they are right when they post what they believe. Soooo my point is one can be right and be happy at the same time.

He makes it sound like it's one or the other when he said "rather be right than be happy". The Apostles were right and they were very happy.


Mary

 

[Waiting on him]

I am very happy....Thank you.

Do you think you are right when you post your beliefs on this forum?

Curious Mary

Maybe @Taken or @bygrace could answer the same question since they 'liked' your condescending post.

I believe God is right

 

[Marymog]

I believe God is right

Yup...I agree. See, we can agree on something.

We have to interpret Gods word correctly to know what is right. Can you interpret these 7 words and tell me what am I saying:

I never said you stole the money.


Curious Mary

 

[Waiting on him]

Second time asking:

I have not had the opportunity to baptize anyone and no one has asked me to baptize them. When given the opportunity to I will fulfill His commandment.

You?

Mary

I believe Christians that host the spirit of God present the Gospel of Jesus Christ and he performs the only baptism necessary. I also believe that you guys performing water baptism on infants is not a bad thing, I don’t believe that this act accomplishes salvation,but I do believe it’s a pledge from parents stating they will make all efforts to lead their child to Christ.