Has anyone here ever read this document?

[BobRyan]

Evangelicals and Catholics Together

Yes - looks like a problem for protestants who forget history and the fact that the RCC claims those "exterminate hertics and Jews" actions in the Lateran IV dark ages - were "infallible" since it was an ecumenical council.

If you have some groups join for common cause - Buddhist , Jew, Baptist and they join in refuting atheists by all agreeing to find evidence that atheism is a flawed position, then fine. But the ECT is much more than that.

 

[brakelite]

It is clear that you know scripture better than I. Thank you for your brilliant interpeation of scripture.

You're welcome. Come again anytime.

You, brakelite, are truly a person who can bring all christens together with you breadth of knowledge about scripture and loving, kind, intelligent and articulate words.

It is not my work nor is it my intention to bring Christians together. My work, all our work, it to bring folk to Christ. I will leave it up to Him to purge those things which tend to disunity between those in Him.

Everyone should go to brakelites website because what he has written on there will unite us. Please ignore the writings of the document on this website (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) for it contains words that will truly divide Christianity.

Never a truer word spoken. Not so much about my blog, but certainly ECT will divide Christianity. Those deceived by it will unite indeed, against those who remain outside. Read Revelation 13.

What is the next one on your list we can agree on?

Santeria? I think they would claim to be Catholic as well.

They can consider themselves whatever they want, however, if they don't adhere to the teachings of the Catholic Church then they are not Catholic.

Anyone can adhere to the teachings of the Catholic church. Whether that makes them Christian is another natter. Does make them Catholic though, yes.

 

[Marymog]

Hullo Marymog. You may have come across this analogy before but it is one worth repeating, that those who regularly handle genuine articles are able to detect counterfeits. This is reportedly true in banking where those who handle genuine legal tender have little or no problem spotting the fake.
This passage exhorts us to study in a way that is approved of God and enables us to arrive at the truth based on what God has given us in His Word - the Bible. If we keep referring to the Bible in a way that is right, not wresting or twisting its message or arguing in a way that gets nowhere, we will become workers that need not be ashamed, having a good grasp of the truth. It does take time and patience and continual study.
2Ti 2:14-18
(14) Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
(15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
(18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Well Hullo Stumpmaster. I'm curious! Is that the way they spell 'hello' in New Zealand? Or did you spell it that way for a reason?

The passage you cited does not answer the question.

Church A teaches that baptism saves you. The "workmen" of that church are not "ashamed" and believe they are "rightly dividing the word of truth."

Church B teaches baptism is only a public display of your faith. The "workmen" of that church are not "ashamed" and believe they are "rightly dividing the word of truth."

Only one can be "rightly dividing the word of truth." . How do we determine which church is teaching the Truth? note: the other would be a false teacher

Which church, A or B, must correct his opponent with gentleness so that God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, so that they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. (2 Timothy 2: 25-26)

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

Only one can be "rightly dividing the word of truth."

i disagree, as they might easily both be deceived, and most likely are in some regards at least?

 

[Marymog]

And as I said (and you know it) that maybe neither are teaching the truth... and probably neither feel they are telling a lie. (Which they aren't, if neither is deliberately deceiving.) All people (if honest) tell things that may be incorrect, but they are not lying. In truth, there may not be a single person on this planet that gets everything in the Bible correctly. But none are lying when they tell what they believe is true.

When I first began working in psychiatry, (which I gave up to become a General Contractor) one of my teachers told me that the world is NOT Black or White, as I wanted to insist it be, but rather it consists of shifting and often elusive shades of grey. It is the same thing with our faith. We do not, ether tell "Truth", or else we have to be lying.

Thank you. Can you please explain to this simple woman how it is that "maybe neither are teaching the truth"? Either baptism saves or it doesn't save. Are you suggesting there are more options?

It seems to me the way you approach scripture interpretation is that everyone has their own interpretation (truth) and as long as we BELIEVE it is true then we are not lying to other's when we preach OUR truth to them. Your approach to scripture allows the churches that teach gay marriage, abortion etc. not to be held accountable by their fellow Christians for their false teachings.

Since scripture makes it clear that God is not ok with his sheep being mislead (lied to) how do you rectify that with your theory that there is only my truth and as long as I don't "feel" like I am lying then I am not lying?

I wonder how John 8:43-47 or Acts 20:30 or 2Peter 2:1 fit into your belief?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

i disagree, as they might easily both be deceived, and most likely are in some regards at least?

Of course you disagree....Today....but give it a couple of days or a month or years. You might discover a new truth that causes you to agree with me.

In your world there is no truth except the truth that YOU believe.

In my world The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (just like scripture says) and if we have any differences amongst ourselves we are to take our differences to The Church to decide which one is right and which one is wrong with the wrong one being treated as a pagan or tax collector (just like scripture says).

In your world you are the pillar and foundation of truth and if anyone disagrees with you then you go to you to decide who is right or who is wrong. The odds are the person who opposes you will always be wrong.

Mary

 

[farouk]

So the "fact" is that Scripture is not the Truth? Scripture (the Truth) is just what WE think or believe or feel or how WE read it?

Mary

"Thy Word is truth" (John 17.17).

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course you disagree....Today....but give it a couple of days or a month or years. You might discover a new truth that causes you to agree with me.

In your world there is no truth except the truth that YOU believe.

In my world The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (just like scripture says) and if we have any differences amongst ourselves we are to take our differences to The Church to decide which one is right and which one is wrong with the wrong one being treated as a pagan or tax collector (just like scripture says).

In your world you are the pillar and foundation of truth and if anyone disagrees with you then you go to you to decide who is right or who is wrong. The odds are the person who opposes you will always be wrong.

Mary

so you say, but i think i have made plain that i consider myself as possibly deceived too

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Of course you disagree....Today....but give it a couple of days or a month or years. You might discover a new truth that causes you to agree with me.

In your world there is no truth except the truth that YOU believe.

In my world The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (just like scripture says) and if we have any differences amongst ourselves we are to take our differences to The Church to decide which one is right and which one is wrong with the wrong one being treated as a pagan or tax collector (just like scripture says).

In your world you are the pillar and foundation of truth and if anyone disagrees with you then you go to you to decide who is right or who is wrong. The odds are the person who opposes you will always be wrong.

Mary

@Marymog , what you're getting at here and in many of your other posts is the different epistemological regimes different people have. Might I suggest that this issue would be best tackled with a direct thread about it?

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog , what you're getting at here and in many of your other posts is the different epistemological regimes different people have. Might I suggest that this issue would be best tackled with a direct thread about it?

There is no need to start another thread I can sum it all up right here:

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God.....Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

So that we will not suffer the fate of Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I were handed over to Satan. Or Hymenaeus and Philetus who were men who had gone astray from the truth.

For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies......

The point of all this: Scripture is the Truth (capitol T) not the truth (small t) as most on this forum practice/believe. Scripture tells us there will be men who twist scripture and deceive us and men will teach contrary to the Truth. If we are to know WHO the false teachers are then we must know who the Truth tellers are. Correct?

Scripture says The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Not you. Not me. Not your truth. Not my truth. THE TRUTH.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Santeria? I think they would claim to be Catholic as well.

Anyone can adhere to the teachings of the Catholic church. Whether that makes them Christian is another natter. Does make them Catholic though, yes.

They can consider themselves whatever they want, however, if they don't adhere to the teachings of the Catholic Church then they are not Catholic. Since they don't, they aren't. They fall more along the line of your ilk.

Anyone can adhere to your bizarre beliefs that you write on your website. Whether that makes them Christian is another matter. Does it make them followers of brakelite, yes.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

so you say, but i think i have made plain that i consider myself as possibly deceived too

Are you deceiving yourself with the thought that you may possibly be deceived?

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you deceiving yourself with the thought that you may possibly be deceived?

Mary

the def of "possibly" makes that pretty unlikely i guess Mary

 

[farouk]

I wonder why they bothered to put the document together, frankly. It's like an exercise in papering over the cracks.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

There is no need to start another thread I can sum it all up right here:

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God.....Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings
<Jane abridging for length>
The point of all this: Scripture is the Truth (capitol T) not the truth (small t) as most on this forum practice/believe. Scripture tells us there will be men who twist scripture and deceive us and men will teach contrary to the Truth. If we are to know WHO the false teachers are then we must know who the Truth tellers are. Correct?

Scripture says The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Not you. Not me. Not your truth. Not my truth. THE TRUTH.

Mary

With all due respect, that not a great conversation starter, because people disagree on which teachings are the strange ones, which church and teachers are His True ones, etc. Which leads up back to the original question: how are those answers determined? Hence the need for discussing baseline epistemology.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Well Hullo Stumpmaster. I'm curious! Is that the way they spell 'hello' in New Zealand? Or did you spell it that way for a reason?

The passage you cited does not answer the question.

Church A teaches that baptism saves you. The "workmen" of that church are not "ashamed" and believe they are "rightly dividing the word of truth."

Church B teaches baptism is only a public display of your faith. The "workmen" of that church are not "ashamed" and believe they are "rightly dividing the word of truth."

Only one can be "rightly dividing the word of truth." . How do we determine which church is teaching the Truth? note: the other would be a false teacher

Which church, A or B, must correct his opponent with gentleness so that God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, so that they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. (2 Timothy 2: 25-26)
Mary

Hullo again Marymog,
Hullo is British. NZ's Head of State is Queen Elizabeth II, you get the picture.
Personally I don't bother with denominations and their various dogmas. I believe we each have a responsibility to rightly divide the word of truth, and so do those I fellowship with, so we compare notes and share hopes.

 

[quietthinker]

There is no need to start another thread I can sum it all up right here:

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God.....Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

So that we will not suffer the fate of Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I were handed over to Satan. Or Hymenaeus and Philetus who were men who had gone astray from the truth.

For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies......

The point of all this: Scripture is the Truth (capitol T) not the truth (small t) as most on this forum practice/believe. Scripture tells us there will be men who twist scripture and deceive us and men will teach contrary to the Truth. If we are to know WHO the false teachers are then we must know who the Truth tellers are. Correct?

Scripture says The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Not you. Not me. Not your truth. Not my truth. THE TRUTH.

Mary

It is obvious to those who know, those who watch and see.
'Come out of her my people and be ye not partakers of her sins for her sins have piled to heaven'
It is to be expected that false prophets have silver tongues..... 'you will know them by their fruits'

 

[Harvest 1874]

You can be taken to the goldfields but unless you put some effort in and dig, chances are you won't find much.

Agreed, the problem with most professed believers today is they are Laodicean, lukewarm Christians. They live in a fast paste society where everything is spoon fed to them in short decisive spurts as it is well known fact that they have very short attention spans. Anything that involves real study in which they have to put forth any kind of true effort is repugnant to them.

The truth is only for those who through persistence continue to search for it diligently. Like hidden treasure it is not to be found by the lukewarm careless Christian, who only looks upon the surface, no! true treasure is hidden and requires digging, study.

It requires one to brake out all the proper tools, picks , shovels, axes and etc. (i.e. concordances, lexicons, bible helps and etc.). While attending bible studies its easy to pick out the true bible students they are the ones carrying all the books with them to their studies, their tools, while most show up empty handed expecting others to do the work for them. These have forgotten that the Lord is only a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

 

[Marymog]

the def of "possibly" makes that pretty unlikely i guess Mary

You guess that it is pretty unlikely that you are deceiving yourself.

You believe it is pretty unlikely that you are deceiving others (and yourself) on this forum when you articulate you interpretation of scripture. Are you comfortable with possibly deceiving your fellow Christians?

Do you feel bad that you might be telling them something OPPOSITE of what scripture teaches and that you may be twisting scripture?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

With all due respect, that not a great conversation starter, because people disagree on which teachings are the strange ones, which church and teachers are His True ones, etc. Which leads up back to the original question: how are those answers determined? Hence the need for discussing baseline epistemology.

Scripture already answered your question: "how are those answers determined?"

Scripture says The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Not you. Not me. Not your truth. Not my truth. (1Timothy 3:15)

If you have a difference with your brother you take it to The Church to decide. (Matthew 18:17)

Are you familiar with the Council of Jerusalem in Scripture?

Mary