Has Kingdom Hall / WatchTower Ever Been Wrong?

[The Learner]

7. Jesus is therefore by nature God's Son, not God's creation or
God's servant; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our
sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11;
Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.).
I. Objections
1. Prov. 8:22: This text is not a literal description of Christ, but a
poetic personification of wisdom (cf. all of Prov. 1-9, esp. 8:12-21;
9:1-6), poetically saying that God "got" His wisdom before He did
anything - i.e., that God has always had wisdom.
2. Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, since
He is here presented as the Son and principal heir of the Father (cf.
vv. 12-44); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33;
48;14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer. 31:9); note that
v. 16 speaks of the Son as the Creator, nor creature (cf. E.1.
above).
3. Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (archê) in Rev. as a title means source
or one who begins, i.e. Creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13);
elsewhere Christ is called the archê in the sense of "ruler," Col.
1:18, cf. plural archai, "rulers," in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15, also Luke
12:11; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6;
1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21.
4. 1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28: Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the
Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is
subordinate relationally to God.
5. John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12:
Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as
God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in
John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including
Himself with the disciples).
6. Mark 13:32: Jesus' statement that He did not know the time of
His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the
humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact Jesus, as
God, did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection
He does not including Himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).
7. Mark 10:17-18: Jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells
the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an
unqualified sense except God.
8. Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf. James 1:13; but note that Jesus
could not sin, John 5:19.
9. John 1:18: No one has seen God, but men have seen Jesus, e.g. 1
John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either,
1 Tim. 6:16, and to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9.
10. 1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g. Phil. 2:8; but
note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not
remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John
2:19-22.
11. 1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called Lord: but here
"God" and "Lord" are synonymous (cf. v. 5; cf. also Rom. 14:3-12
for a good example of "God" and "Lord" as interchangeable);
moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does
that the Father is Lord (Matt. 11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the
only Lord.
12. 1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here supposedly distinct from God; but Jesus
is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man; likewise
Jesus is distinct from God (the Father), but is also God.
13. Deut. 4:12, 15-25; God not appear in a human form to Israel,
lest they fall into idolatry; but this does not rule out His appearing
in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry.
14. In many texts Jesus is distinguished from God: He is the Son of
God, was sent by God, etc.; in all these texts "God" is used as a
name for the person most commonly called God, i.e., the Father.

 

[The Learner]

VII. The Holy Spirit Is God
A. Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
B. Has the incommunicable attributes of God
1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14
2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11
C. Involved in all the works of God
1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35
3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27
D. Is a person
1. Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might
be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and
the Son, it must be used of a person
2. Is the "Helper"
a. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1;
note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in
Greek always or almost always of persons.
b. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
c. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
d. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not
on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify
Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.
3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf.
Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.
4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29;
10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11: 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb.
3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13,22.
5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
8. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language
used of other persons
a. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf.
Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
b. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 33; cf. Isa.
53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
c. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.;
cf. Eph. 3:17, 19; 14:10

 

[The Learner]

VIII. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons
A. Matt. 28:19
1. "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit": use of definite
article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless
explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 26
2. The views that "Father" and "Son" are distinct persons but not
the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that
all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible
in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a
"spirit" is a person unless context shows otherwise).
3. Does singular "name" prove that the three are one person? No;
cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. 48:16
4. "Name" need not be personal name, may be title: Isa. 9:6; Matt.
1:23. If a single personal name is sought, the name shared by all
three persons is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."
B. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19
1. Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken
during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I
baptize you in the name of...."
2. Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not
the formula "in the name of Jesus" was used) were people already
familiar with the God of the OT:
a. Jews: Acts 2:5, 38; 22:16
b. Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 12, 16
c. God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 22, 48
d. Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5
e. The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and
God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13
3. Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is)
was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel
to "all the nations," including people who did not know of the
biblical God
C. God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons
1. The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph.
1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2
Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3
2. Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut.
17:6; 19:15
3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10;
etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21
4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31;
15:9; 17-23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17
5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father:
John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.
6. The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt.
11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15
7. Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1
D. Jesus is not God the Father
1. Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other
names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" =
strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer
(Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" =
exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).
2. John 10:30
a. Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He
say, "the Son and the Father are one person."
b. The first person plural esmen ("we are") implies
two persons.
c. The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying
essential unity but not personal unity (compare John
17:21-23).
3. John 5:43: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means not that He
was the Father because He had the Father's name, but that, while
others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does
not; He comes in His Father's name (on His Father's authority).
4. John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the
Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one He calls "My
Father."
5. John 14:6-11
a. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one
person.
b. Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not "I am the
Father."
c. The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not
mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20;
17:21-23.
6. John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger
siblings, thus preventing them from being "orphans," without being
their father.
7. Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that
Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since "Godhead"
(theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God,
Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. "The
Godhead" here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the
Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father.
8. The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities:
raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21);
6:39-40, 44, 54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14;
15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7),
drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common
works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that
Jesus is the Father

 

[The Learner]

E. The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation
1. Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; "prophecy" in 30:1
translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as "burden."
2. The Son created all things: See VI.E.1
3. Jesus was "with" (pros or para) God the Father before creation:
John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean "pertaining to,"
although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).
4. Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was
born before Jesus): John 1:15, cf. 1:14-18, 29-34
5. Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father,
and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 31; 6:33;
38, 41, 46, 51, 56-58, 62; 8:23, 42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-
11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12
6. Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal
preexistence before Abraham: John 8:58
7. The Son explicitly said to exist "before all things": Col. 1:17, cf.
1:12-20
8. These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God's
foreknowledge
a. We are all "in God's mind" before creation; yet
such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly
mean to say something unusual about Christ.
b. To say that all things were created through
Christ means that He must have existed at creation.
c. No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been
with God before creation.
9. Texts which speak of the Son being begotten "today" do not
mean He became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to His
exaltation at the resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Psa.
2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4).
F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1
John 2:1.
2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.
3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to
glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).
4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in
Matt. 28:19.
5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.
6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
a. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the
sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16,
citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the Revised English
Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.
b. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in
the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at
Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified
God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All
three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there
are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is
designated "the Holy Spirit."
c. Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede
for us is consistent with the fact that we have two
Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).
d. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances
to the disciples after the resurrection (compare
14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.
e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in
various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22);
Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40,
44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John
14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the
believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying
believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works
prove that the two persons are both God, but not
that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit
1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons
in Matt. 28:19.
4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?
a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy
Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this
argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is
not a product of physical union between a man and
a woman!
b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be
active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus
(Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor.
1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1
Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the
two work together; they do not prove the two are
one person.
IX. Conclusion: The Bible teaches the Trinity
A. All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture.
1. One God
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (i.e., they are
not each other, nor are they impersonal; they relate to one another
personally).
B. The New Testament presents a consistent triad of Father, Son, Holy Spirit
(God, Christ, Spirit): Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:34; also Luke 1:35; 3:21-22 par.;
4:1-12; John 4:10-25; 7:37-39; 14-16; 20:21-22; Acts 1:4-8; 2:33, 38-39; 5:3-4, 9,
30-32; 7:55-56; 10:36-38, 44-48; 11:15-18; 15:8-11; 20:38; 28:25-31; Rom. 1:1-
4; 5:5-10; 8:2-4, 9-11, 14-17; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:4-6, 11-12, 18; 2 Cor. 1:19-22; 3:6-
8, 14-18; Gal. 3:8-14; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:3-17; 2:18, 21-22; 3:14-19; 4:4-6, 29-32;
5:18-20; Phil. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Tit. 3:4-6; Heb. 2:3-4; 9:14;
10:28-31; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 3:21-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:18, 27-29.
C. Therefore, the Bible does teach the Trinity.
X. What Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make?
A. Sovereignty: Because the three persons have each other, we can be assured that
God created us only to share the love they have and not as a means to His own
end: Acts 17:25; John 17:21-26.
B. Mystery: The triune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore
greater than anything we can comprehend: Rom. 11:33-36; Isa. 40:18.
C. Salvation: God alone planned our salvation, came to save us, and dwells in us
to complete our salvation: 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:3-18; etc.
D. Prayer: We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son
directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.
E. Worship: We worship Father and Son in the Spirit: John 4:23-24; Phil. 3:3;
Heb. 1:8; etc.
F. Love: The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for
one another: John 17:26.
G. Unity: The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the
church: John 17:21-23.
H. Humility: As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we
should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14.
I. Sonship: We are "sons of God" as we are united with the Son of God by the
work of the Holy Spirit and the adoption of the Father: John 1:12-23; Rom. 8:14-
17.
J. Truth: All those who wish to worship and love God must seek to know Him as
He is in truth, for God, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is truth: John 4:24; 14:6,
17; 15:26; 16:13.

 

[The Learner]

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical%20Basis%20Trinity%20Bowman.pdf

The above posts are from the outline that the Jw's here have been ignoring.

 

[The Learner]

Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9

Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14

Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15

 

[The Learner]

Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16

He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17

Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.18

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.19

Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.20

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.21

For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....22

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,

For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.23

Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.24

Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other , and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter...even the Spirit of truth,” thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality?25

As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.26

 

[The Learner]

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.27

For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, God the Word with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.28

For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.29

Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, though demonstrated as God, He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And He who as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.30

Origen (AD 185-254) was another early Christian theologian. He writes,

Jesus Christ...in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was.31

Seeing God the Father is invisible and inseparable from the Son, the Son is not generated from Him by “prolation,” as some suppose. For if the Son be a “prolation” of the Father (the term “prolation” being used to signify such a generation as that of animals or men usually is), then, of necessity, both He who “prolated” and He who was “prolated” are corporeal. For we do not say, as the heretics suppose, that some part of the substance of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father out of things non-existent, i.e., beyond His own substance, so that there once was a time when He did not exist.... How, then, can it be asserted that there once was a time when He was not the Son? For that is nothing else than to say that there was once a time when He was not the Truth, nor the Wisdom, nor the Life, although in all these He is judged to be the perfect essence of God the Father; for these things cannot be severed from Him, or even be separated from His essence.32

For we who say that the visible world is under the government to Him who created all things, do thereby declare that the Son is not mightier than the Father, but inferior to Him. And this belief we ground on the saying of Jesus Himself, “The Father who sent Me is greater than I.” And none of us is so insane as to affirm that the Son of man is Lord over God. But when we regard the Savior as God the Word, and Wisdom, and Righteousness, and Truth, we certainly do say that He has dominion over all things which have been subjected to Him in this capacity, but not that His dominion extends over the God and Father who is Ruler over all.33

Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding.34

But it is monstrous and unlawful to compare God the Father, in the generation of His only-begotten Son, and in the substance of the same, to any man or other living thing engaged in such an act; for we must of necessity hold that there is something exceptional and worthy of God which does not admit of any comparison at all, not merely in things, but which cannot even be conceived by thought or discovered by perception, so that a human mind should be able to apprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son. Because His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. For it is not by receiving the breath of life that He is made a Son, by any outward act, but by His own nature.35

And that you may understand that the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same, as God and the Lord are one and the same with the Father, listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: “Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” For who else was “He which is to come” than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Savior is also God; so also, since the Father is called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also called omnipotent.36

**Nearly all of the above early writing can be read at Early Christian Writings.

Polycarp, Philippians, 12:2. ↩
Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 0.0. (This is the Greeting.) ↩
Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 1.1. ↩
Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 7.2. ↩
Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 18.2. ↩
Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 19.3. ↩
Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 3.3. Holmes, AF, 229. ↩
Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 1.1. Holmes, AF, 249. ↩
Ignatius, Letter to Polycarp, 3.2. Holmes, AF, 265. ↩
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 128. Translation from Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, I:264. ↩
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 36. ANF, I:212. ↩
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 63. ANF, I:229. ↩
Justin Martyr, First Apology, 63. ANF, I:184. ↩
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 126. ANF, I:263. ↩
Melito, 5. ↩
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.19.2. ↩
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4.6.7. ↩
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1.10.1. ↩
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4.5.2. ↩
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.21.4. ↩
Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, 1. ↩
Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, 10. ↩
Tertullian, Treatise on the Soul, 41. ↩
Tertullian, Apology, 21. ↩
Tertullian, Against Praxeas, chapter 9. ↩
Tertullian, Against Praxeas, chapter 2. ↩
Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies, 10.29. ↩
Hippolytus, Exegetical Fragments from Commentaries, On Luke, Chapter 23. ↩
Hippolytus, Against Plato, Section 3. ↩
Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of one Noetus, Section 17. ↩
Origen, De Principiis, Preface, 4. ↩
Origen. Contra Celsus, Book 5, Chapter 11. ↩
Origen, Contra Celsus Book 8, Chapter 15. ↩
Origen, De Principiis, Book 1, Chapter 2, Section 2. ↩
Origen, De Principiis, Book 1, Chapter 2, Section 4. ↩
Origen, De Principiis, Book 1, Chapter 2, Section 10. ↩

 

[The Learner]

There are many quotes from the Early Church Fathers in the line of the Apostles.

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

The Early Church Fathers on Jesus

When the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) come to your door, if you get into a conversation with them on who Jesus is, you can expect them to leave a tract with you titled, Should You Believe in the…

www.bethinking.org

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: Christ Begotten from Eternity - Apostles Creed

The doctrine of the Trinity has a core teaching that was taught by the early church. The early church taught that Christ was begotten before eternity.

apostles-creed.org

 

[The Learner]

1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–117): For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit. (Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 18.2. Translation from Michael Holmes, Apostolic Fathers, 197)

2. Ignatius (again): Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life. (Ibid., 19.3. Holmes, AF, 199)

3. Ignatius (again): For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father. (Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 3.3. Holmes, AF, 229)

4. Ignatius (again): I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 1.1. Holmes, AF, 249.)

5. Ignatius (again): Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way. (Ignatius, Letter to Polycarp, 3.2. Holmes, AF, 265.)

6. Polycarp of Smyrna (69–155): Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth . . ., and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead. (Polycarp, Philippians, 12:2. Holmes, AF, 295)

7. Epistle of Barnabas (written c. 70–130): “If the Lord submitted to suffer for our souls, even though he is Lord of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make humankind according to our image and likeness,” how is it, then, that he submitted to suffer at the hands of humans?” (Epistle of Barnabas, 5.5. Holmes, AF, 393)

8. Justin Martyr (100–165): And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 128. Translation from Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, I:264)

9. Justin (again): “Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.” (Ibid., 36. ANF, I:212.)

10. Justin (again): Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ. (Ibid., 63. ANF, I:229)

11. Justin (again): The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin . . .” (Justin Martyr, First Apology, 63. ANF, I:184)

12. Justin (again): For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 126. ANF, I:263)

13. Tatian (110–172): We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales when we announce that God was born in the form of man. (Tatian, Address to the Greeks, 21. ANF, II:74)

14. Melito of Sardis (d. c. 180): “He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body – God put to death! . . . n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree. . . . This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.” (Melito, 5. ANF, VIII:757)

15. Irenaeus of Lyons (120–202): “For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. . . . He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men; — all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.19.2. ANF, I:449)

16. Irenaeus (again): “He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.” (Ibid., 4.6.7. ANF, I:469)

17. Irenaeus (again): “Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.” (Ibid., 1.10.1. ANF, I:330)

18. Irenaeus (again): “Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.” (Ibid., 4.5.2. ANF, I:467)

19. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215): “This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal. . . . . . . The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends” (Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, 1. ANF, II:173)

20. Tertullian (c. 160–225): For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.” (Tertullian, Treatise on the Soul, 41. ANF, III:221)

21. Tertullian (again): “Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. . . . That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.” (Tertullian, Apology, 21. ANF, III:34–35)

22. Hippolytus (170–235): “The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.” (Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies, 10.29. ANF, V:151)

23. Caius (180–217) [in response to those who would question the deity of Christ] “Perhaps what they allege might be credible, did not the Holy Scriptures, in the first place, contradict them. And then, besides, there are writings of certain brethren older than the times of Victor, which they wrote against the heathen in defense of the truth, and against the heresies of their time: I mean Justin and Miltiades, and Tatian and Clement, and many others, in all which divinity is ascribed to Christ. For who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the psalms, too, and hymns of brethren, which have been written from the beginning by the faithful, celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him.” (Caius, Fragments, 2.1. ANF, V:601)

24. Origen (c. 185–254): “Jesus Christ . . . in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was.” (Origen, De Principiis, Preface, 4. ANF, IV:240)

25. Novatian of Rome (210–280) “For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God. . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God” (Novatian, On the Trinity, 11. ANF, V:620.)

 

[The Learner]

What the Early Church Believed: The Divinity of Christ

The Divinity of Christ was believed by Christians from the begining. This is shown again and again in the Bible and the writings of the early Christians.

www.catholic.com

Did the early church affirm Jesus' deity? - The Cripplegate

Did the early church believe in the deity of Christ? Ask your average Muslim, Unitarian, Jehovah's Witness, or just about any non-Christian skeptic who has read (or watched) The Da Vinci Code, and they'll try to convince you the answer is no. From such sources we are told that the deity of...

thecripplegate.com

The Apostolic Fathers and the Deity of Christ

The earliest Christian writers outside the New Testament, known as the Apostolic Fathers, clearly understood the scriptures to teach that Jesus is God.

carm.org

"
One example is the second-century Epistle to Diognetus, a popular early Christian work that affirmed a very high Christology. Here are a few select passages:

But the truly all-powerful God himself, creator of all and invisible, set up and established in their [Christians’] hearts the truth and the holy word from heaven, which cannot be comprehended by humans. To do so, he did not, as one might suppose, send them one of his servants or an angel or a ruler…but he sent the craftsman and maker of all things himself, by whom he created the heavens, by whom he encloses the sea within its own boundaries, whose mysteries all the elements of creation guard faithfully, from whom the sun was appointed to guard the courses that it runs during the day, whom the moon obeys when he commands it to shine at night, whom the stars obey by following the course of the moon, by whom all things are set in order and arranged and put into subjection, the heavens and the things in the heavens, the earth and the things in the earth, the sea and all the things in the sea, fire, air, the abyss, creatures in the heights, creatures in the depths, and creatures in between–this is the one he sent to them. (7.2)

This is a remarkable description of Jesus–especially so early. Notice that the author expressly states that Jesus is NOT an angel, or any other divine servant. Moreover, the author goes out of the way to say that Jesus is the very creator of the universe." Did the Earliest Christians Really Think Jesus Was God? One Important Example - Canon Fodder

 

[The Learner]

Did the Earliest Christians Really Think Jesus Was God? One Important Example - Canon Fodder

One of the most common critiques of Christianity is that some of its major tenets are late inventions. Core Christian doctrines, we are told, were never believed in the earliest phases of the church but were developed only at a later time period. Orthodoxy, therefore, was not early but late. The...

www.michaeljkruger.com

Church Fathers Scripture Index

1) Polycarp (69-155) “yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus”

2) Ignatius (50-117) “by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God”, also “once you took on new life through the blood of God”

3) Justin Martyr (100-165) “prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts”

4) Melito of Sardis (died 180) “because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree”

5) Irenaeus of Lyons (130-202) “He is Himself God, and Lord, and King Eternal”

6) Clement of Alexandria (150-215) “He alone being both, both God and man”

7) Tertullian (150-225) “For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.”

8 ) Origen (AD 185-254) – “while made a man remained the God which He was.”

For the sources of these quotes:

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

 

[The Learner]

The Apostolic Fathers and the Deity of Christ

The earliest Christian writers outside the New Testament, known as the Apostolic Fathers, clearly understood the scriptures to teach that Jesus is God.

carm.org

If you are not awarew, the watchtower's anti-trinity booklet is mostly misquotes:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201308/trinity/

Watchtower misquotes regarding the Trinity

The Watchtower misrepresents the Trininty and dishonestly misquotes sources, in an effort to undermine the Trinity teaching. After reading the article you will be left wondering 'why the dishonesty?'

www.jwfacts.com

Examples of misquotes, lies and deception in Watchtower publications

Examples of various techniques to mislead, such as misquotes, lies and deception in Watchtower publications

jwfacts.com

https://biblicalworldviewacademy.org/exposing-the-deceit-of-the-watchtower-organization-part-7/

Best Link **** Master Index of Quotes of Quotes used to trash the Trinity in the Watchtower's, "Should you believe the Trinity?"

Part1: Pagan Section: Trinity Watchtower BOOKLET: Should You Believe in the Trinity EXPOSED and REFUTED

Quotes on the Trinity from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society

Various quotes from the JW's organization on the Trinity which the Watchtower organization considers to be pagan in origin, apostate, etc

carm.org

TRINITY | doorwaychristianoutreach.info

Written by John CarsonâYou Should Believe in the Trinityâ lyrics by Gary Richardson  The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's 31 page booklet, "Should You Believe in the Trinity?", was a popular and effective tool for JWs to hand out when someone claimed to believe in the Trinity. Should you...

doorwaychristianoutreach.info

https://www.staycatholic.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/JW-Book.pdf

Wrestling With the Watch Tower: Church Fathers and the Trinity

In " Trinity Not in the Bible ," we examined the Watch Tower's claim that the historic Christian doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly t...

theopologetics.blogspot.com

Were Early Christians Trinitarians? | Monergism

by Robert HommelIn 1989, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society published a small booklet entitled "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" (SYBT). This booklet is

www.monergism.com

Examining - "Should You Believe In The Trinity" a JW Booklet

“Scriptures That Prove Trinitarians Wrong”

Probe responds to a JW who believes there are Scriptures That Prove Trinitarians Wrong

probe.org

More links related to Watchtower misquotes.
Holding God in Accurate Knowledge: The Watchtower and the Early Church Fathers (The Fathers Vs. The Watchtower)

Holding God in Accurate Knowledge: The Watchtower and the Early Church Fathers (The Fathers Vs. The Watchtower) - Kindle edition by Partyka, Mike. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

Holding God in Accurate Knowledge: The Watchtower and the Early Church Fathers (The Fathers Vs. The Watchtower) - Kindle edition by Partyka, Mike. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading...

www.amazon.com

The Early Church Fathers on Jesus

When the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) come to your door, if you get into a conversation with them on who Jesus is, you can expect them to leave a tract with you titled, Should You Believe in the…

www.bethinking.org

Objections to the Doctrine of the Trinity by Jehovah's Witnesses,Trinity

Objections to the Doctrine of the Trinity by Jehovah's Witnesses, Trinity

christiandefense.org

https://faithalone.org/journal-articles/book-reviews/jehovahs-witnesses-on-trial-the-testimony-of-the-early-church-fathers/

Was Jesus God? Yes | Resources in Defense of Jesus' Deity

The Bible clearly reveals that Jesus was and is God in human flesh (Jn 20:28; 2 Pt 1:1; Hb 1:8). The early church fathers affirmed this also.

alwaysbeready.com

The Apostolic Fathers and the Deity of Christ

The earliest Christian writers outside the New Testament, known as the Apostolic Fathers, clearly understood the scriptures to teach that Jesus is God.

carm.org

What Is the Trinity? Do Christians Worship Three Gods?

One of the most misunderstood ideas in the Bible concerns the teaching about the Trinity. Although Christians say that they believe in one God, they are constantly accused of polytheism (worshiping at least three gods). The Scriptures do not teach that there are three Gods; neither do they teach...

www.josh.org

 

[The Learner]

Not one person came out of the first century believing Jesus was God. Tertullian may have coined the term but he did not devise the doctrine. That was the issue of contention that built up over the course of 300 years and it took the hundreds of Bishops of Rome under three councils to finalize the thing.

The facts...

1. Jesus became God in AD 325 at the council of Nicaea.

2. The holy spirit became God in AD 381 at the council of Constantinople.

151 years after Jesus became God, he acquired two natures....

3. There were other councils between 381 and 451 where the Bishops of Rome could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions. They overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES...the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.

I've debated trinity for years, so I know and understand the trinity doctrine quite well. The only answer trinitarians have to overcome all the contradictions is the hypostatic union clause which happened in AD451.

It's simple for me. Hebrews 2:17 says Jesus was MADE just like his brethren and I believe that. I also believe Jesus at his word that the Father is greater.

You shouldn't feel sorry for me. Do you feel sorry for me because you think non-trinitarians are not saved?

Years ago, I could have been a victim of the torture and flames.

Would you have felt sorry for me then?

You are a poor reader listening to false teachers who are blocking you from entering Heaven and God's Kingdom, read the posts and links I gave.

 

[The Learner]

Well if that's the issue you're having there are answers to your accusations.

There are NO scriptures that say Jesus is 100% God. None that say that people who reject it are still in their sins. None that say the rejection of the Deity of Christ sends people to hell. IOW - The Trinity neither saves nor condemns.

The best answer is found in Hebrews 2:17.

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE."

He was the Christ - the Messiah. He was divine in that he came from the Father and had an uncommon measure of the Fathers Holy Spirit. That's how he overcame. Even so, at times, he needed to be empowered and encouraged by an angel to overcome. (Luke 22) IF Jesus was also God, why would he need any empowerment at all from an angel?

Here's another big issue this all presents.

I will never believe Jesus was a fraud. I will never believe the cross was a hoax. Consider this...

Our bible says Jesus was tempted in every way and that he knew temptation. Want the verse?

Our bible also says God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin. Want the verse?

If Jesus was fully God that means he could not have been tempted to sin anyway. The only Trinitarian answer to this is the two natures or AKA - a hypostatic union. This makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin since he, as God, couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making the cross and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

Phil 2, Jesus was also fully Man.

 

[The Learner]

Not one person came out of the first century believing Jesus was God. Tertullian may have coined the term but he did not devise the doctrine. That was the issue of contention that built up over the course of 300 years and it took the hundreds of Bishops of Rome under three councils to finalize the thing.

The facts...

1. Jesus became God in AD 325 at the council of Nicaea.

2. The holy spirit became God in AD 381 at the council of Constantinople.

151 years after Jesus became God, he acquired two natures....

3. There were other councils between 381 and 451 where the Bishops of Rome could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions. They overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES...the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.

I've debated trinity for years, so I know and understand the trinity doctrine quite well. The only answer trinitarians have to overcome all the contradictions is the hypostatic union clause which happened in AD451.

It's simple for me. Hebrews 2:17 says Jesus was MADE just like his brethren and I believe that. I also believe Jesus at his word that the Father is greater.

You shouldn't feel sorry for me. Do you feel sorry for me because you think non-trinitarians are not saved?

Years ago, I could have been a victim of the torture and flames.

Would you have felt sorry for me then?

I feel sorry for you because you are or were taught really poor history of the church, Your invisible igorance of the Bible, Theolgy, History, logic is just very funny. Have you studied the copycat thesis? You think false teachers like the watchtower and Jw's are reliable sources. You clearly are following a false Jesus Christ aka another Jesus.

1 John 4:1 ESV / 226 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ESV / 216 helpful votes
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV / 207 helpful votes
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

2 Peter 2:1 ESV / 187 helpful votes
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 ESV / 182 helpful votes
If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

Matthew 7:15 ESV / 161 helpful votes
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Jude 1:4 ESV / 160 helpful votes
For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 5:11 ESV / 136 helpful votes
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

2 Peter 2:1-3 ESV / 135 helpful votes
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Colossians 2:8 ESV / 124 helpful votes
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

 

[The Learner]

False christs, another Jesus

Matthew 24:24
Verse Concepts
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Source: 13 Bible verses about False Christs

2 Corinthians 11:4
Verse Concepts
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Source: 13 Bible verses about False Christs

 

[The Learner]

AH - here we go with one brother condemning the other as though he himself is god.

Trinity - it has done more to divide and destroy Christianity than any other doctrine.

It's people like you that destroy Christianity's image. We as believers all reflect upon one another.

Your understanding of history is really bad, that is sad. If you do not believe Jesus is God, you will not go to Heaven. Every one who disagree with you have posted many scriptures and history that proves the Apolstles beleived Jesus is God.

 

[The Learner]

We know Jesus was fully man because there are numerous scriptures that prove it. There are none - NOT ONE - that show he was fully God or co-equal to God. In fact, the scriptures say the opposite.

John 1:1 clearly teaches Jesus has the same nature as the Father.
It has been pointed often that there is rank in the godhead.
Two persons have the same nature, but have different ranks in the military.

 

[The Learner]