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Hath God cast away his people

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Insight, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    When the Manchild is birthed.

    Logabe
     
  2. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    You right it will be refined and purged like the dross from silver.

    And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zechariah 13:9)

    Another unfulfilled prophecy for Vengle to chew over.

    The natural Israel in Paul's mind (Rom 11), is future, when the natuaul branches a grafted back into the olive tree.

    As from the beginning of this study you have confused spiritual Israel with natural Israel. We have already proven the natrual branches that were rejected are natural Israel.

    Yes, it is a truth that Hosea will come to pass when natural Israel acknowledge Gal 3:22 and regrafted into the Olive Tree.

    Once again you leave Jesus Christ as a King with no subjects to rule over. How can Jesus ever be King of the Jews (for which he died) if he has no Israel to reform and cleanse?

    You also leave the promise of the Twelve Apostles judging over what?

    Your teaching is full of holes and you present only half the picture.

    You have long forgotten the operation of the Spirit.

    Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:46)

    Heed to Word and dont wrest it!.

    Insight
     
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    No, you haven't proven anything but that you have an idea you refuse to let go of.

    Not a problem.

    Even you cannot alter what will be.

    Sooner or later you as all of us will have to accept what proves to be.
     
  4. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    Where will Jesus return? Israel. Who will Jesus fight against? The enemies of Israel.

    Zech 14
     
  5. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    As I spoke of in another thread; That Jerusalem is the church which Revelation speaks of as the New Jerusalem ascending from heaven. Psalms 45 shows that bride along with her virgin companions.

    She is also the bride of Christ which Peter spoke of as a Holy Nation, a people who were not a people but now were a people. I refer you to my post #258 of this thread for what i said about that.

    What you are reading about at Zechariah 14 is Christ bringing the nations upon Babylon the Great harlot who is the satanic corrupted version of that Jerusalem and her residue are that 144,000. That Jerusalem (the 144,000) then ride with Christ against the nations.

    You have read it all in Revelation but you are having trouble getting that fleshly nation out of your eyes so that you might see.
     
  6. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    What God is doing in the world on the carnal level, He is also doing spiritually within the hearts of the Jacobites (Christians). He is leading us and training us, bringing us to the point where we will at last recognize that Jesus Christ is Sovereign, that "God rules," so that we too might have our Peniel experience and see His face. This is a transfiguration experience, for when we see His face, we shall be like Him (1 John 3:2). We shall be even as Moses when he came down from the Mount with his face glowing with the presence of God (Ex. 34:29). The only difference is that we are now coming to the Tabernacles Age, when the glory that will be ours will never fade.

    It is not enough to be a physical Israelite or a physical Judahite. While it is true that God continues to work through them on a physical level on the world scene, there is a much higher goal to attain. Physical Israelites who know not Jesus Christ as their sovereign King are not "true Israelites" in the legal sense. Such unbelievers have struck out on their own for other shores and have forsaken their birthright holder, Jesus Christ in His second appearance. The same is true with true physical Judahites, or Jews. Those who reject Jesus Christ in his first work have no legal right to call themselves by the tribal name of Judah.

    Thus, in the legal sense, anyone who calls himself a Jew or a Judahite but who rejects Judah's tribal head, Jesus Christ, is not a "true Jew" at all, no matter what his ancestry is. By the same token, there are no true Israelites as of this post, for a true Israelite is one who has a new immortal body (Tabernacle) that manifests Christ in the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles.

    On the other hand, there are many others who are not natural Israelites or Judahites, but are strangers who have joined themselves to Jesus. Isaiah says that they will have a name that is better than that of sons and daughters (Is. 56:5). Justification by Faith does not change anyone's physical heritage or race; but it does identify them in Jesus' first work on the Cross and makes them "true Judahites" in the sense that Paul speaks. And when a person enters into the Tabernacles experience (the glorification of the body, or the receiving of the Tabernacle which is from heaven), he identifies with Jesus Christ in His second work of Sonship-the Joseph work. In this he becomes a "true Israelite," having received the birthright.

    In no case is it required that Israelites become Jews, or that Jews become Israelites. In no case is it required, nor is it possible, that a non-Israelite become a racial Israelite. Racially, we are what we are. All must become believers in Jesus and confess Him to be the King of kings and Lord of lords, no matter what their heritage. All Creation must eventually come under His rulership. He is the Unifier of all peoples, the Repairer of the Breach, and the Restorer of all Creation. The day comes when He will be "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28).

    All the people of the earth have grown tired of the oppression of man's unjust laws and oppression, both in the religious and the secular realms. This is about to end with the rebirth of Manasseh. It is about to end with the birth of the Manchild that will change the course of history forever.

    When Jacob-Israel said to Joseph in Genesis 48:11, "I never expected to see your face, and behold, God has let me see your children as well," he prophesied of our time. The Church, too, will soon say, "We never expected to see the lost tribes of Israel again, but God has now allowed us to see the birthright promise fulfilled, for Israel has indeed produced an abundance of children, both physical and spiritual."

    Because the Age of Pentecost has now run its course, the Age of Tabernacles is now coming into focus. A new understanding of the Bible and of prophecy will also come as the plan of God unfolds. The veil that has been upon Israel is now ready to be removed. The veil upon the overcomers, too, is about to be removed to manifest the glory of God in the highest level. This will bring many changes in our understanding of God and His word, and this will in turn bring about many upheavals in political systems and social behavior throughout the world. All men will begin to learn the laws and ways of God, and they will learn to apply them not only to individual actions, but also to national laws and policies that will bring freedom and Jubilee to all. Isa. 2:2-4 says,

    2 Now it will come about that in the last days, the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it.

    3 And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    4 And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.

    Do you believe it?

    Logabe
     
  7. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    None of which changes Zech 14 and Acts 1. Jesus will return to Jerusalem, Israel and fight for them. Which also implies that He will fight against Jew haters too.
     
  8. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I would agree that common sense says he will fight against anyone that hates anyone. :rolleyes:
     
  9. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    This is true Ducky but it will not be considered "Israel" but those in Jerusalem are Judah. Israel is yet to be fully regathered, refined and converted in Jesus Christ.

    Insight

    Vague and lacks committal.

    Sadly it's what we have come to expect from your Vengle.

    I take "common sense" to mean "my" unfounded opinion.

    In this we agree.

    Insight



    These thoughts are admirable but not consistent with Pauls thought in Rom 11 where he does acknowledge them as natural Israel "yet" to be grafted into the Olive tree.

    Maybe you could provide me with some verses to support your view, not that I am disagreeing.

    You are speaking about the becoming of a constitutional Jew grafted into the Tree by a new and better covenant.



    Yes.

    In this regard Logabe, you need not a teacher, but it would do Vengle well to heed these lessons.

    Insight.
     
  10. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    :lol: Thank you.

    I do lack committal to the flesh. You are right. :rolleyes: It is dead. All of it. :)

    I consider using the valuable spiritual information of the scripture to focus on the flesh as a horrible waste of that wisdom.
     
  11. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    No Vengle, that is where you are wrong.

    The Flesh is not dead until death is swallowed up at the end of the 1000 years. This is another example of your ineptitude in comprehending those things which are yet to come to pass. Rev 21:4

    Your over spiritualise the message at the loss of what comes first.

    Its problematic of modern Christianity.

    Insight
     
  12. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Insight, your error is that you do not indeed believe that the middle wall of partition has been brought down, and that Jews and Gentiles form one new man in Christ. You're stuck in the old covenant!

    If the promises are to Christ, and Israel is all those in Christ, then the old testament prophecies for the end are also for God's people, Israel, those in Christ. Very simple!
     
  13. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    I understand all that you have written and a little more.

    Take what you have written and apply the return of Jesus Christ, then take those of the Old Covenant and wash them a number of times through the heat of suffering; clean off the dross which is the filthiness of this world, and you will have a National Baptism fit for a King to reign over.

    If you disagree with this then you will not be one of the chosen pastors to teach Israel the Gospel.

    And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you (scattered Israel) with knowledge and understanding. (Jeremiah 3:15)

    I suggest you spend some time initially in Jeremiah 3 & 4 and should you need help with the interpretation which to me needs no interpretation just ask.

    Otherwise your current training may be for another Kingdom?

    Insight
     
  14. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Oh Insight :rolleyes:

    If you could only see what is there that you do not see.

    But you do serve a purpose. It makes us need to find the words to explain what we see. And that keeps things getting clearer for us. :)

    That Jerusalem is the 144,000. And that return is and has been happening in Christ from the beginning days of the New Covenant.

    Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

    Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

    Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

    Over time these points will add up for a person if that person does not trample them.
     
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  15. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Paul says in Rom. 11:25 and 26,

    25 "a partial hardening has happened
    to Israel until the fulness of the nations
    (ethnos) has come in,
    26 and thus all Israel will be saved."

    Paul was looking forward to the fulfillment of
    the promise given to Abraham, making him a "
    “great nation" and a "multitude of nations."
    Since Paul was looking beyond the first coming
    of Christ into the time of the second coming,
    He had in mind the promise to Joseph (or
    Ephraim). Christ had already come of the tribe
    of Judah in order to establish His throne rights
    (the Scepter); but He was yet to come of the
    tribe of Ephraim in order to bring forth the Sons
    of God, which is the promise of the Birthright.


    This is what Paul contemplated in his concept of
    "the fulness of the nations," for it had been
    promised that Ephraim would become a fulness
    (Heb. melo) of nations (Gen. 48:19). In other words,
    during the time of Israel's blindness, God would
    work with the remnant of grace, raising up and
    training those who would rule and reign with Christ
    in The Age to come. He would then use that remnant
    of grace to bring salvation to the rest of the nations
    at a later time.

    The plan is evident from Scripture. God called one
    man (Abraham) and used him to bring forth a nation
    that would be a light to the nations. Likewise, in
    the New Testament, the plan started with one
    man (Christ), who was used to call the remnant of
    grace to minister to the rest of the nations.

    Stepping back still further, we see that the first

    resurrection is the point where the entire remnant
    of grace from all past ages are raised from the dead
    in order to minister to all nations in the age of post-
    blindness. In other words, The Age to come will
    be a time when God removes the blindness, not
    only from Israel, but also from the nations in
    general. They will see the glory of God through
    the overcoming remnant of grace and will desire
    to learn the laws of the Kingdom (Isaiah 2:2-4).

    This Age to come will benefit the generations
    that are alive during that thousand-year period,
    but it will have no effect upon those who lived
    and died in previous generations. The rest of
    the dead will be raised at the end of the
    thousand years (Rev. 20:5) to face the judgment
    of God for all works done in their life time. The
    real time of restoration will then begin, for the
    Age following the Great White Throne will be
    the time when the vast bulk of humanity since the
    beginning of time will learn the ways of God by
    means of judgment in the "lake of fire." Isaiah 26:9
    says,

    (9) ... For when the earth experiences
    Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the
    world will learn righteousness.

    Likewise, Isaiah 27:8, 9 tells us that God banished
    and expelled the house of Israel, in order that
    "through this, Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven." The
    purpose of judgment is to find forgiveness, not
    to punish endlessly. For this reason the Law itself
    limits punishment for misdemeanors to 40 stripes
    (Deut. 25:1-3), and it limits punishment for felonies
    to a Jubilee cycle of 49 years. When judgment ends,
    the sinner is restored to grace, for the Law must then
    release him from its custody.

    When the restoration of all things occurs in the end,
    the divine plan will be complete, and the purpose of
    Ephraim's Birthright will be accomplished. The
    blindness imposed by the sovereignty of God will end
    when it is time to bring in the fulness of the nations.
    This will certainly include the nations of Israel and
    Judah, but it will also include the rest of the nations
    as prophesied to Abraham at the beginning.


    Logabe
     
  16. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    His own heart is that we be one. If we divide what God has made one... Well we shouldn't! ;)
     
  17. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Best you read Logabe's posts Prentis...there is no need for me to repeat myself :rolleyes:
     
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That's a slanted view of what Jacob and Rebekah did. It's a preferred view of the sons of Esau. What actually happened was that Esau was the real liar, for he had already sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red pottage (Gen.25:27-34). God had already told Rebekah when both children were still in her womb that Jacob was to rule over his elder brother Esau, even as you quoted. And in Gen.27:34-36 Esau showed his dishonesty in still expecting to receive the birthright, even after Isaac had already given it to Jacob. The flesh contention was because Rebekah loved Jacob, but Isaac loved Esau. So God went around Isaac's intention to give the birthright to Esau. And Esau showed his nature to lie and act dishonestly, since he treated God's Birthright as something to be sold, and still expected to have it after he had done so. But God's Birthright would go to Jacob either way, for He ordained it, as as written in Malachi 1 that Jacob He loved, but He hated Esau.




    This still has the sons of Esau today upset, as they still want to kill the seed of Jacob. Esau was the one who actually paid a heavy price for his lie and dishonesty in selling the Birthright to Jacob, then still expecting to receive it by Isaac. The KJV has an error with Isaac's blessing to Esau, as Esau's place would be 'away' from the fatness of the earth. So Esau's blessing was in the negative sense, in opposition to God's Birthright. But for Jacob, God's Promise of Salvation through His Son would continue through His seed, and they would be established in the fattest portions of the earth, with a seed as many of the stars and sands of the sea, and all that the Birthright Promises contain. And they are still... established today as such.




    God's Word is more specific than that, for the good basket of figs God pointed to Judah as those. The evil basket of figs He did not specifically say, but based on the creeping in of foreigners of the Canaanites among Judah, it's not difficult to figure out. Thus the sons of Cain (Kenite scribes), sons of Ishmael (Arabs), and sons of Esau (false Jews), all think that Israel (Jacob) has stolen their Birthright from God, when actually God never gave it to them, but to Jacob only, as it still is today. Esau still has not completely cast that 'yoke' off today, but he's working on it with the present one world government movement.

    The conquering of Jerusalem by the Romans, Turks, etc., was because of the remnant of the house of Judah refusing Christ at His first coming, and and being wrongly led to crucifying Him instead. The crept in unawares of Esau and Canaanites did lead the remnant of the house of Judah at Jerusalem astray in that. Yet the majority of the seed of Israel, including the majority of the house of Judah, were not present in the holy land when that happened, which reveals God's greater Plan of The Gospel was already setup to occur outside the holy land.




    The whole concept of Zionism is that of God's promised Salvation to Israel of being established back in the lands of promise, with a kingdom like David's in the days of old. That will only occur under Christ Jesus at His second coming and gathering of His saints. The crept in unawares indeed are using that as a political agenda to try and steal the kingdom and birthright. The establishing of the state of Israel again was by God's Hand ultimately, even though it is not the establishing of Christ's Kingdom that will come there. God foretold in Jer.24 that He would return Judah back to the holy land, along with the evil basket of figs, and not remove them again. It's per His promise to David and Jerusalem that there would always remain 'one tribe' there (1 Kings 11). Yet if you'll notice, they have no king there. For the last days prior to Christ's return, there will be a king setup there in Jerusalem, but a false king God did not ordain.

    Let it be known then, that there IS a remnant of the true house of Judah existing in the nation state called Israel today. And even though most of those still refuse Christ Jesus because of God having blinded them, they are still of the real house of Judah and still beloved chosen according to Apostle Paul in Romans 11:28-29.




    I'm aware of what Esau, Ishmael, and Cain are up to. But you're mistaken that the descendents of Jacob have given back the Birthright today, for they have not. Those instead are trying to take it back by force. And one of the main methods is today's Communist-Socialism creeping over the western Christian nations. That will not be complete until they setup their false "king of the world" they plan to do. Noting that Jerusalem is still without a king today is very important.



    I don't see God having caused this as application of 'an eye for an eye' recompense of what Jacob did, for Esau was the real liar and worker of dishonesty. Consider that Christ's crucifixion was ordained to be by the hands of His enemies. That's why the people of Canaan and Esau were allowed to creep into Judah's stay after the Babylon captivity. It was in prep for Christ's first's coming to die on the cross. That's why we see John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus rebuking those false crept in unaware Jews at His first coming.

    God's Birthright will never... be given to Esau, Ishmael, or the Kenites. When their world beast kingdom is established in final in our near future, it will soon fall to the ground. God already foretold through Jacob that Judah would keep the royal sceptre rule all the way... up to Christ's return, and they also would keep the rule of law to that time too (Gen.49:10). So what we have is actually the two baskets fighting each other all the way up to the time of Christ's return. This is why the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal will decide in final to come upon God's people on the last day to destroy, and God will stop it right then with Christ's coming to make war with them. They won't even have a chance.
     
  19. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    I read it.

    It in no way changes that Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ, and should not be divided. This is a work of God, and by the Gentiles, he will bring the Jews to jealousy, that they would be grafted into the same vine. We are all called to be one in Christ. We have been made partakers of the promises... The flesh profits nothing.

    You make yourself as a judge of who it is that God will chose, and you make it whoever agrees with you, ;) but you are doing your own thing in this, and making yourself God.

    If you speak of a divided kingdom, maybe you are teaching another kingdom! ;)
     
  20. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I should put this here.

    Did you catch that it was Jesus who also was leading that nation of Israel under the Old Law Covenant?

    See deeply. Who is this Jacob? This O Israel of Isaiah 49?:

    Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
    18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
    19 Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.
    20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob.
    21 And they thirsted not when he led them through the deserts: he caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them: he clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out.
    22 There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.

    Isaiah 49:1Listen, O isles, unto me (unto Jesus, the Word of God); and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
    2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
    3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

    4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
    5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
    6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


    Who is this Jacob? This O Israel of Isaiah 49? It is Jesus. Jesus is Israel. The only way anyone can be Israel is to become his seed in him.

    The flesh was always used only to demonstrate this. It works one way for all of us.

    God is not showing any partiality to the flesh.
     
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