Hath God cast away his people

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Vengle

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Now it appears we have come to your above post.

What is in our hearts concerning natural Israel today?

Do we bring fire from heaven upon them? Write them off? Or as you say Rom 11:14 as above? By grace?

Does God have future plans for Natural Israel and what are they...

Maybe you and Pegg can extrapolate their hope?



What is in our hearts concerning natural Israel today?

Do we bring fire from heaven upon them? Write them off? Or as you say Rom 11:14 as above? By grace?

Does God have future plans for Natural Israel and what are they...

Maybe you and Pegg can extrapolate their hope?


Pegg and I extrapolate their hope, hey? :lol:


Well, alrighty then! LOL. :lol:


I take it you do know that means to stretch the application of their hope?


We say they are saved in the exact same manner as we are.


Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."


That is stretching their hope, hey?
 

Insight

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Pegg and I extrapolate their hope, hey? :lol:


Well, alrighty then! LOL. :lol:


I take it you do know that means to stretch the application of their hope?


We say they are saved in the exact same manner as we are.


Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."


That is stretching their hope, hey?

Not to worry Vengle.
 

Insight

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There are so many variations to the beliefs of those that believe the flesh and blood Israel and Jerusalem is to be restored that I hope you will forgive my error then.

Sorry, I missed this response!

Natural Israel must need exist through the 1000 years reign.

Who will judge over natural Israel?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

What throne? and where?
 

Vengle

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Sorry, I missed this response!

Natural Israel must need exist through the 1000 years reign.

Who will judge over natural Israel?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

What throne? and where?

As far as that goes it also says that all the nations will be judged during that one thousand years. That does not mean God is restoring infrastructure of the nations as they exist today, nor does it mean that God is going to restore the infrastructure of that ancient Israel.

It basically is what Paul said here: Romans 2:27 "And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."


We do not know the exact details of how that will be accomplished at this point. We are given only a spiritual glimpse of it. So it is fruitless to speculate much about those details now as that will only waist our time and energy that we need to focus on being sure that we absorb the portions God has put on our plate for now. And such speculation may well only lead us astray of truth so it is certainly not worth fretting over for now.


You cannot change what God has purposed. I cannot change what God has purposed. And no man can alter what God has purposed.

Therefore there is no urgency that depends on us and that would justify our letting that kind of speculation consume our time.


I recognize what you are saying with the things you are pointing out. I see how your goal in the things you are relating is to show a correlation between the end of that Jewish system of things to the end of this current day world. And I agree with you that it has its place. But I also think that it can drive us into much invention of ideas if we are not extremely careful to limit our speculation. And the details simply are not there but illustratively.

Too much speculation turns this into a kind of trying to be saved by intelligence. We must learn to wait on God and be patient.

In Romans 9-11 Paul is most definitely not trying to give a prophecy of the future. He is training and conditioning ministers of Christ so as to build up the body of Christ then and there and to set the temple of God (the body of Christ) in motion both for that generation and for the generations that would come after him.

That is the reality. I am sorry if that disappoints you.
 

Insight

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As far as that goes it also says that all the nations will be judged during that one thousand years. That does not mean God is restoring infrastructure of the nations as they exist today, nor does it mean that God is going to restore the infrastructure of that ancient Israel.

Hi Vengle,

My first observation is while you provide some insight to the overall discussion, you failed to get around to answering my 2 questions.

Jesus and the Apostle Paul are of one mind on this subject and I am hoping in time the fullness of the lesson of Rom 11 will become apparent to you also.

The questions where based the following words of Jesus:

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (i.e Natural Israel).

What throne? That would be the Throne of David – Luke 1:32

and where? That will be in Jerusalem Jer 3:17 cp Luke 1:32

It basically is what Paul said here: Romans 2:27 "And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

It’s a pity you didn’t take me to a prophetical outlook as per Deut 10:16;30:6 & Jer 4:4

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I ( Yahweh) will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:31

This prophecy is unfilled!

We do not know the exact details of how that will be accomplished at this point. We are given only a spiritual glimpse of it. So it is fruitless to speculate much about those details now as that will only waist our time and energy that we need to focus on being sure that we absorb the portions God has put on our plate for now. And such speculation may well only lead us astray of truth so it is certainly not worth fretting over for now.

Yes we do!

You cannot change what God has purposed. I cannot change what God has purposed. And no man can alter what God has purposed.

I don’t understand this comment? Where have I said I want to change what God has purposed?

Are we not exploring the teachings of Paul in relation to the natural Israel?

Therefore there is no urgency that depends on us and that would justify our letting that kind of speculation consume our time.

Please don’t shy away from understanding the future destiny of Israel – I am more than willing to provide you the detail.

This subject has filled my life for some time and I desire to show you the Mind of the Spirit as revealed through His Word.

I recognize what you are saying with the things you are pointing out. I see how your goal in the things you are relating is to show a correlation between the end of that Jewish system of things to the end of this current day world. And I agree with you that it has its place. But I also think that it can drive us into much invention of ideas if we are not extremely careful to limit our speculation. And the details simply are not there but illustratively.

This provides me with encouragement that you have caught a glimpse and future work of the saints in relation to Israel.

Too much speculation turns this into a kind of trying to be saved by intelligence. We must learn to wait on God and be patient.

Very dangerous message Vengle! Heb 11:1KJV “substance”

In Romans 9-11 Paul is most definitely not trying to give a prophecy of the future.

No – but he is speaking from a prophetical viewpoit as we shall see!

He is training and conditioning ministers of Christ so as to build up the body of Christ then and there and to set the temple of God (the body of Christ) in motion both for that generation and for the generations that would come after him.

That is the reality. I am sorry if that disappoints you.

Vengle, best we stick to the main theme of the chapter for now!

Hath God cast away his people? i.e Natural Israel.

So far Pauls answer is a resounding no – but were we surprised?

Insight
 

Insight

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For the benefit of accessing Scripture and those who are reading along with this study I have placed some broader paragraph subheadings to allow us a general understanding of the Chapter.

Romans Chapter 11

Israel's rejection never absolute, for a remnant is saved

Romans 11:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Israel's rejection only temporary

Rom 11:11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24

The secret of the restoration revealed

Rom 11:25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32

The depths of God's wisdom revealed in God's plan of national redemption

Rom 11:33,34,35,36

There are three main sections to the book of Romans (not including the epilogues):

Doctrinal: How the Gospel relates to Salvation

National: How the Gospel relates to Israel

Practical: How the Gospel relates to Conduct

As you can tell we are currently in the section relating to the Gospel and Israel from Romans 9:1-11:36.

Enjoy

Insight
 

Insight

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As we have seen most of the Chapters content is concerning natural Israel and what their future may hold.

In Rom 11:25,26 Paul explains to the Gentile believers the purpose of God is to one day restore natural Israel, and shows that it involves the conversion and education of the natural children of Abraham.

It can be proven conclusively that their former separation from God has provided the opportunity for salvation to be offered to us the Gentiles, but their ultimate restoration will bring glory to Israel and honor to their fathers.

What a way to start this section!

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant"
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Paul is stating a hard saying to us Gentile believers out there that we better understand the future intentions of our Father concerning Israel!

It does us well to recall the gospel comprises "the hope of Israel" as per Acts 28:20 by which our salvation is obtained as per Rom 8:24.

Paul wants the Gentile converts to understand how essential they know Yahweh's intentions with natural Israel and to acknowledged them openly.

Only when this happens can the future unseen things be clearly seen through faith.
 

Vengle

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Insights Quote= Vengle

You cannot change what God has purposed. I cannot change what God has purposed. And no man can alter what God has purposed.

Insight's comment= "I don’t understand this comment? Where have I said I want to change what God has purposed?
Are we not exploring the teachings of Paul in relation to the natural Israel?"

Insights Quote=Vengle

Therefore there is no urgency that depends on us and that would justify our letting that kind of speculation consume our time.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
I posted that bit of your reply above because it illustrates what I meant when I said that we must use the context. The word "therefore" always ques us that what is about to be said is based upon the thing or things said just prior to it.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Romans 11:1 "I say then"
That little phrase, "I say then" is the same as saying, "therefore". It cues us that what Paul says is based upon what he had just finished saying in the 10th chapter.
______________________________________________________________________________________

I will not give any consideration to ideas that are drawn apart from the context that a statement has been made within. I just won't do it. I know that to do so is dangerously unreliable.

That would be like me taking your words and applying them as I wanted to. You would not like that. And you would be justified to not like that.

Just because Paul is past does not mean we can now take his words out of context.

Apart from the context they were spoken in, we can make statements seem to say almost whatever we want them to.

You may see that as stubbornness if you wish.

It is stubbornness for (or, on behalf of) self-discipline.
 

Vengle

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Romans 11:9-10 “And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway."


I have said in one of my earlier posts that we ought to not imagine Paul would grieve over the remnant of natural Jews whom he had no doubt would be saved, as compared to this other group of blinded natural Jews of whom he hoped realistically concerning that “some would be saved”.


When we take Romans 11:9-10 and go to an examination of the entire 69th Psalms from where Paul is quoting, it erases all doubt that we have accurately understood when we say that Paul is not speaking in any sense about the “all” of natural fleshly Israel (or, even of just Judea) having their veil of blindness lifted as a whole nation and being saved.


In David's speaking of those blinded ones who remain stubborn in their stubbornness, we see clearly why Paul hoped that “some might be saved” rather than unrealistically hoping they “all” would be saved:


Psalms 69:27-28 “Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.”


Who then does David say will be saved?


Psalms 69:32-33 “The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God. For the LORD heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners.”


And it is those humble who hear God's preaching work in every generation and so return to help rebuild Zion since her installation in heaven. But that part I will not elaborate on right now as, due to the insistence of some trying to prove their beliefs, it would for the moment only lead to getting side-tracked from just focusing on being sure we understand Romans 11.
 

Insight

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From what I can gather you are yet to commit “fully” to the premise of Pauls argument in Rom 11:1,2.

I sense you are moving further away from Paul’s argument. I don’t know your denomination, however these past few posts I sense you are becoming uncomfortable with the underlying message of Romans 11.

You certainly grasp Pauls teaching to a past & present remnant in Israel, but in terms of why Pauls is using the remnant within his argument appears to be lost on you (for now). Paul is looking forward which I am yet to see from your comments. Certainly as we move through this record if you don’t begin to look forward, Paul will leave you behind. Maybe your resistance is due to a gap in your understanding or defending a denominational belief?...whatever the case this study will soon become very uncomfortable.

We shall see.

Romans 11:9-10 “And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway."

I have said in one of my earlier posts that we ought to not imagine Paul would grieve over the remnant of natural Jews whom he had no doubt would be saved, as compared to this other group of blinded natural Jews of whom he hoped realistically concerning that “some would be saved”.

When we take Romans 11:9-10 and go to an examination of the entire 69th Psalms from where Paul is quoting, it erases all doubt that we have accurately understood when we say that Paul is not speaking in any sense about the “all” of natural fleshly Israel (or, even of just Judea) having their veil of blindness lifted as a whole nation and being saved.

In David's speaking of those blinded ones who remain stubborn in their stubbornness, we see clearly why Paul hoped that “some might be saved” rather than unrealistically hoping they “all” would be saved:

Psalms 69:27-28 “Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.”

Who then does David say will be saved?

Psalms 69:32-33 “The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God. For the LORD heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners.”

And it is those humble who hear God's preaching work in every generation and so return to help rebuild Zion since her installation in heaven. But that part I will not elaborate on right now as, due to the insistence of some trying to prove their beliefs, it would for the moment only lead to getting side-tracked from just focusing on being sure we understand Romans 11.

Rather than expounding all of Psalm 69 and its relationship to Christ, the Jews and natural Israel rejecting and killing their messiah. Your resitence to acknowledging Rom 11 is speaking to the entire nation of Israel will need to be approached head on. Paul is proving (by the example of a remnant) that God’s purpose with them is one of eventual reformation.

Your above comments further prove their rejection is only temporary.

For example, here we see Paul Citing Psa 69:22, 23.Which is clearly Messianic in character. This Psalm predicts the sufferings and sacrifice of the Lord as a trespass offering.

If you have a keen eye for prophecy you will notice how Paul applies the prophetic import of this Psalm to the judgments which were meted out upon Israel in AD70 (only 14 years after this was written).

Let me ask you a few questions:

What do the following phrases mean?

“Let their table”
“be made a snare”
“and a trap”
“and a stumbling block”
“and bow down their back always”

Keep in mind when answering this that this section of Scripture from Rom 11:1-10 is Paul putting forward an argument that Israel’s rejection both during Elijah’s & Pauls time was not absolute and within this section we can conclude that a remnant have been saved.

Now Paul desires to establish his argument based on a remnant of natural Israel being saved. Paul now provides “hope” to Christian & Jews in Roms 11:11-24 that their darkened state is only temporary.

More to come as we begin Rom 11:11-24

Insight
 

Insight

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Rom 11:11KJV I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Blue text = Natural Israel

I say then…

Notice how Paul is building principle upon principle.

Paul now asks you a key question:

Has the failure of Israel ensured the total obliteration of their national identity and their total exclusion from God’s divine plan?

No room to sit on the fence Vengle.

A simple yes or no is required

Answer:

A definitive answer here will direct our discussion one way or another.

Insight
 

Vengle

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Well this should make you happy then Insight.

Romans 11:11 “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy”


For the phrase “they should fall" Strong’s Greek Dictionary takes us to the Greek word “pipto”, meaning “to fall”, through the idea of alighting.

It means falling like a bird landing down on the ground when it stops flying. (alighting)

From that we know that all Paul is saying here is that God did not stumble them so that those individuals of that portion who did stumble would no longer have any hope of ever being recovered. Paul’s point is merely that the same offer of grace for salvation based upon repentance and faith in God applies also to them.

If we stretch away from that in our interpretation we are guilty of adding to what Paul there said .

That second word “fall” which occurs there at Romans 11:11 is a different Greek word. “paraptoma”. it comes from the Greek word for “apostasy” (parapipto) but has a slightly different meaning. Where the Greek word for “apostasy” means “to fall completely aside” as in “completely away from”, “paraptoma” on the other hand means to fall as beside or right next to. Thus it concurs with what Paul said of those blinded ones at Romans 10:2 “For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.”
 

Insight

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Well this should make you happy then Insight.

Romans 11:11 “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy”


For the phrase “they should fall" Strong’s Greek Dictionary takes us to the Greek word “pipto”, meaning “to fall”, through the idea of alighting.

It means falling like a bird landing down on the ground when it stops flying. (alighting)

From that we know that all Paul is saying here is that God did not stumble them so that those individuals of that portion who did stumble would no longer have any hope of ever being recovered. Paul’s point is merely that the same offer of grace for salvation based upon repentance and faith in God applies also to them.

If we stretch away from that in our interpretation we are guilty of adding to what Paul there said .

That second word “fall” which occurs there at Romans 11:11 is a different Greek word. “paraptoma”. it comes from the Greek word for “apostasy” (parapipto) but has a slightly different meaning. Where the Greek word for “apostasy” means “to fall completely aside” as in “completely away from”, “paraptoma” on the other hand means to fall as beside or right next to. Thus it concurs with what Paul said of those blinded ones at Romans 10:2 “For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.”

We wil get to this shortly.

Paul now asks you a key question:

Has the failure of Israel ensured the total obliteration of their national identity and their total exclusion from God’s divine plan?

No room to sit on the fence Vengle.

A simple yes or no is required

Answer:
 

Vengle

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We wil get to this shortly.

Paul now asks you a key question:

Has the failure of Israel ensured the total obliteration of their national identity and their total exclusion from God’s divine plan?

No room to sit on the fence Vengle.

A simple yes or no is required

Answer:

I do not believe God is obliterating anyone's natural national identity.

I believe everyone's heritage is a thing to cherish like as the variety of flowers and trees and birds and the diversity which in all things of itself glorifies God as the creator of it all.

There is a huge difference between that and what I say about his not using the infrastructure of those nations which was born of carnal man's independence of him.

PS/ I have absolutely no affiliation of any visible religion to sway me. I am a member of none, a hater of none, and supporter of none until the day God shows me one that is like the spiritual one, free of hypocrisy.
 

Vengle

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That brings us to a particular verse which seems to be difficult for many to understand: I emphasize “seems” because it is actually quite simple.

Romans 11:12 “Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?”


Did their fall mean riches to the world? How so?

The reason those are important questions is that in the correct answer to them we see the reciprocal is true for the Jews and all Israelites exactly as it is for any nation of men.

But the part of that verse which really hangs people up in their understanding of it is actually also the easiest part to correctly understand, “how much more their fulness”, meaning the fulness of those blinded Israelites.

That fulness of the blinded Israelites is no different than this reciprocal fulness Paul also shows us:

Romans 11:25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

If you believe that the phrase “until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in”does not mean that all as in everyone in the nations is going to be saved then you have a double standard if you believe that about what Paul said at Romans 11:12.

What you are missing in your understanding (which I will not elaborate on right now) is that the blindness those Israelites alighted into (that veil of blindness) is the same one that the nations have been under.

Only a remnant of spiritual Israelites (spiritual Jews) have that veil removed specifically to form the first fruit rulers in and with Christ over this earth in that thousand years which is soon to arrive.

The rest of us are only brought out as individuals from under that veil of blindness by the life-giving word of God in that remnants mouth, as they preach that we need repent and turn to faith in God through Christ.

We can discuss that more later.
 

Insight

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There is a huge difference between that and what I say about his not using the infrastructure of those nations which was born of carnal man's independence of him.

Can you define "infrastructure"?

I am not entirely sure what you have in mind with this term.

Thank you

Insight
 

Vengle

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Can you define "infrastructure"?

I am not entirely sure what you have in mind with this term.

Thank you

Insight

"Infrastructure is basic physical and organizational structures needed for the operation of a society or enterprise,[1] or the services and facilities necessary for an economy to function.[2] It can be generally defined as the set of interconnected structural elements that provide framework supporting an entire structure of development." (quote from Wikipedia)

God is using nothing produced of the carnal man of any nation, else that carnal man continues to live.

The carnal man is condemned to die and no forgiveness is even offered to him.

The carnal man is the true reflection of the fallen Adam and dies with Adam permanently, he and all of his works.
 

Insight

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Vengle,

I am pleased you have taken a lead with this study.

You have some very sound thoughts below!

That brings us to a particular verse which seems to be difficult for many to understand: I emphasize “seems” because it is actually quite simple.

Romans 11:12 “Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?”

Did their fall mean riches to the world? How so?

Take a look at how Paul used the term riches.

Rom 2:4; 9:23 and he uses it once more Rom 11:33 (2 + 1+1+1 = 5)

Coincidence he uses it 5 times?

In the context of of "grace" and "restoration"!

In this epistle those benefits are associated with the "riches" which are to be found only in Christ (Eph 3:8)! Riches therefore = “The Gospel” & the “Fellowship with Yahweh and His Son” upon the basis of the Truth! If anyone be it Jew or Gentile desires to receive such blessings, the individuals must use the means available only in Christ. The very means that the nation of Israel had rejected these "riches" enabled the true "wealth" which is now available to all in Christ (see Eph. 1:7, 18; 2:4, 7; 3:8, 16).

Now I believe you and I agree upon these matters wholeheartedly.

The reason those are important questions is that in the correct answer to them we see the reciprocal is true for the Jews and all Israelites exactly as it is for any nation of men.

Here is where you are wrong.

And have again moved away from the thrust of Romans 11.

Paul understands the work which Yahweh started in Israel He will finish unlike any other nation.

For instance what other nation has it been said salvation is of the Jews” – John 4:22

Your above comment is contrary to Pauls teaching in Rom 15:27 "For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things" their again being Natural Israel.

But the part of that verse which really hangs people up in their understanding of it is actually also the easiest part to correctly understand, “how much more their fulness”, meaning the fulness of those blinded Israelites.

That fulness of the blinded Israelites is no different than this reciprocal fulness Paul also shows us:

See comment above on fullness.

Romans 11:25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

If you believe that the phrase “until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in” does not mean that all as in everyone in the nations is going to be saved then you have a double standard if you believe that about what Paul said at Romans 11:12.

I have never implied all Israelites will be saved, no, not once! Again your language is yet to point forward. I am waiting for you to show a prophetical understanding. I do hope it is coming soon!

What you are missing in your understanding (which I will not elaborate on right now) is that the blindness those Israelites alighted into (that veil of blindness) is the same one that the nations have been under.

This is where you are absolutely wrong and upon reflection you will detract this statement very quickly.

You cannot compare the spiritual darkness of the Jews to that of the natural darkness of the world. Here is where your understanding in terms of the covenant they are currently under and the responsibility they have to their God. Paul is one hundred precent (100%) cogniscient of this fact and hence the whole chapter is speaking to Gods future plan with natural Israel.

“For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the LORD our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? Deut 4:7

Can you say this of any other nation in the world?

No!

Only a remnant of spiritual Israelites (spiritual Jews) have that veil removed specifically to form the first fruit rulers in and with Christ over this earth in that thousand years which is soon to arrive.

The rest of us are only brought out as individuals from under that veil of blindness by the life-giving word of God in that remnants mouth, as they preach that we need repent and turn to faith in God through Christ.

We can discuss that more later.

After this discussion in Romans 11 we need to agree to consider some unfulfilled prophecies concerning Israel. Only then will you begin to understanding the wealth of knowledge and understanding from which Paul is speaking to in this chapter.

I will resist from into these matters here and now as I am enjoying the flow of study.

Thanks for your Christ like spirit.

Insight
 

Insight

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"Infrastructure is basic physical and organizational structures needed for the operation of a society or enterprise,[1] or the services and facilities necessary for an economy to function.[2] It can be generally defined as the set of interconnected structural elements that provide framework supporting an entire structure of development." (quote from Wikipedia)

God is using nothing produced of the carnal man of any nation, else that carnal man continues to live.

The carnal man is condemned to die and no forgiveness is even offered to him.

The carnal man is the true reflection of the fallen Adam and dies with Adam permanently, he and all of his works.

Again, we need to give you a prophetical outlook whereby your above perspective "may" change slightly.

Again these matters can easily be proved but for another thread.

Thanks for clarifying.

Insight
 

Vengle

New Member
Sep 22, 2011
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I am looking forward to that further discussion at the proper time for it.

Food in due season, not prematurely green, neither neglectfully over ripe.

i am going to pause for just a short spell so you can make a second consideration of the things I have said thus far.

Very often in our studies, what at first shocks us so that we do not at first grasp it but instead cringe away from it, when we go back over it having freed our self of fear we see things about it that we could not the first time.

That is one reason why I have a habit of assuming the position in myself of trying to be the most rebellious against what I believe once I have come to believe it. :)

Did that last statement make any sense to you? :lol: