Hath God cast away his people

[Insight]

Thank God for physical Israel… Israel was cut off as a nation (Jezreel),
utterly taken away, or removed (Lo-ruhamah), and no longer God's
people, or God's wife (Lo-ammi). This is confirmed in Hosea 2:2,

2 “plead with your mother, plead; for she is not My wife,
neither am I her husband.”

Likewise, Jeremiah 3:8 tells us that God gave Israel “a bill of divorce.”

Thus we find Israel divorced from God. He gave her a bill of divorce
before sending her out of the house (the deportation to Assyria). God
did it all lawfully. God is a divorcee, and Israel is His ex-wife. Don’t you
get mad at me… read it for yourself.

God would, of course, allow her to experience the oppression of those
other gods (religions of men), until she said, “I will go and return to
my first husband; for then was it better with me than now”
(Hosea 2:7). Even so, God said He would not bring her back to the old
land of Palestine. Instead, “I will allure her” to a new place called
“the wilderness” (2:14), where He would court her again. In that new
place, God says,

19 I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness and in
judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto Me in faithfulness; and
thou shalt know the Lord.

Then in verse 23 we find the climax of the prophecy. I will quote the
verse using some of the original Hebrew words and names in the text,
so that the force of the verse is not lost in the translation. Keep in mind
that God was using the names of his children as prophetic statements.
Lo-ruhamah means “no mercy” and Lo-ammi means “not My people.”
The word lo in Hebrew means “No,” or “Not.”

23 And I will sow [zara, the root word of Jezreel, “to seed, scatter, or
sow”] her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy on Lo-ruhamah;
and I will say to Lo-ammi, Thou art Ammi; and they shall say, Elohim.

In other words, regarding Jezreel, the name means “to scatter” as seed
in the field, and this is the meaning of the name in Hosea 1:3. But it has
a double meaning. It also means “to sow.” One must scatter the seed to
sow it and bring an increase of grain. Hence, God's judgment upon Israel
was to scatter them like seed in the field. This is why Hosea 1:10 says of
Israel,

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the
sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered;
and it shall come to pass that in the place where it was said
unto them, Ye are not My people [Lo-ammi], there it shall be
said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

One cannot escape the simple fact that God did not cast off Israel so that
she might stumble and fall forever, but rather that she might be transferred
to a new land called “the wilderness.” Israel was being sown in a larger field,
where she might grow and multiply as seed sown in the field (the world).
Why? So that she might fulfill the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Genesis 32:12.

Logabe

Thanks Logabe

I am more than willing to discuss this with you, however I am honour bound to continue my discussions with Vengle seeing we have travelled so far.

And I will bring you (Natural Israel) out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 20:34-36)

God Bless

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Vengle

What seems even sadder is your rejection of Paul's initial threefold premise (Rom 11:1,2), which I thought you understood, but now have my doubts.

I stated clearly, did I not, that as we progress through this chapter the heat would be turned up! Well it's getting hot and the message of the natural branches is getting louder, which appears to be drowning out your message.

Now can you hold me liable for unfolding the truth concerning Rom 11?
Certainly not!

Now I was hoping we would move into Ezekiel 48 (and other such prophecies) where we see a marvellous vision of the Holy Land occupied with Natural Israel and the twelve Apostles ruling over them.


We shall see.

I reject your imagination concerning what is there.

 

[Insight]

Vengle,

Why do you kick against the pricks? You do yourself so much harm denying the context of Rom 11. Clearly it is speaking to natural Israel and thier eventual healing.

Who is Paul speaking of here "Thou bearest not the root" Rom 11:18

What is the root?

 

[Vengle]

Likewise, Jeremiah 3:8 tells us that God gave Israel “a bill of divorce.”


Logabe

And the sad part is that what you have posted proves that it is spiritual rather than that divorced fleshly Israel that this is fulfilled upon.

But because you lack in knowledge of that Old Law you do not even realize that how you are applying those prophecies makes God out to be a violator of his own Law.

God's Law strictly forbid divorcing a woman and then remarrying her.

Look it up.

You spiritually are in a slumber.

Wake up.

What has confused you is that there was provision to merely separate for an agreed upon time and that is what you saw happen over and over again. But once God divorced it was final.

That is why Paul was able to suggest in one case that a couple with disagreement could separate for an agreed upon time.

And that is what God did with Israel over and over before that divorcing which you so correctly pointed out. And by God's own Law that divorcing had to be final.

 

[Insight]

And the sad part is that what you have posted proves that it is spiritual rather than that divorced fleshly Israel that this is fulfilled upon.

But because you lack in knowledge of that Old Law you do not even realize that how you are applying those prophecies makes God out to be a violator of his own Law.

God's Law strictly forbid divorcing a woman and then remarrying her.

Look it up.

You spiritually are in a slumber.

Wake up.

What has confused you is that there was provision to merely separate for an agreed upon time and that is what you saw happen over and over again. But once God divorced it was final.

That is why Paul was able to suggest in case that a couple with disagreement could separate for an agreed upon time.

And that is what God did with Israel over and over before that divorcing which you so correctly pointed out.

Deut 24:1,2,3,4

Vengle,

This law wasn’t about instituting divorce! No O T law encourages divorce but the very opposite (Mal 2:14,15,16). Here in Deut 24 is a law restricting the practice of divorce which is considered as evil (Matt 19:8KJV).

You will note the opportunity for reconciliation in Deut 24:4KJV

But we must get back on topic.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Deut 24:1,2,3,4

Vengle,

This law wasn’t about instituting divorce! No O T law encourages divorce but the very opposite (Mal 2:14,15,16). Here in Deut 24 is a law restricting the practice of divorce which is considered as evil (Matt 19:8KJV).

You will note the opportunity for reconciliation in Deut 24:4KJV

But we must get back on topic.

Insight

You just proved my point but refuse to see it. You see too little.

Deuteronomy 24:4 "Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."

Jeremiah 3:8 "And I see when (for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery) I have sent her away, and I give the bill of her divorce unto her, that treacherous Judah her sister hath not feared, and goeth and committeth fornication -- she also." (Young's Literal Translation)

The word "had" is properly "have" in that verse. History shows she was never taken back for there to be a "had".

Young is correct.

In fact her treacherous sister was never taken back either. She was merely kept around for her offspring (the Christ and his faithful) as were Adam and Eve after the sentence of death upon them.

 

[Insight]

You just proved my point but refuse to see it. You see too little.
Deuteronomy 24:4 "Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
Jeremiah 3:8 "And I see when (for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery) I have sent her away, and I give the bill of her divorce unto her, that treacherous Judah her sister hath not feared, and goeth and committeth fornication -- she also." (Young's Literal Translation)
The word "had" is properly "have" in that verse. History shows she was never taken back for there to be a "had".
Young is correct.
In fact her treacherous sister was never taken back either. She was merely kept around for her offspring (the Christ and his faithful) as were Adam and Eve after the sentence of death upon them.

Correct me if I am wrong Vengle, but all this time we have been studying Rom 11 somewhere in the crevices of your mind you deny natural Israel because you believe Jer 3:8 is a permanent "putting away"?

Why did you not inform me of this from the beginning? It certainly would have made light work of Rom 11.

Jeremiah 3 is one of the most incredible prophecies concerning the gathering of the lost tribes of Israel.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

So realisation of Jer 3:8 is then followed here in verse 14 where Yahweh promises (future tense) to re-gather them from among
the nations.

The depressing reality for scattered Jewry.

• Only 1 person from a city
• Only 2 people from a family

Sadly Vengle we see that during their wilderness wanderings and eventual purging very few will make it to the Holy Land. Yahweh will purge them like dross - notice how he acknowledges he is Married to you still!

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

This is you Vengle "I will give you pastors ", after they have been cleansed and only the faith of Abraham remains, Yahweh will feed his people by the saints.

They all will be taught the Oracles of God.

Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Why is the ark of the Lord not sought?

Because the true ARK is in their midst! Jesus Christ will be dwelling in the midst of Yahweh's people and the law in its old form remembered no more.

Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

As is the case with many prophecies, the ultimate picture is presented first, and then the steps by which it will be attained are set out. In this case the ultimate picture is the changed status of Jerusalem and attitude of the nations towards it:

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

Ah, at last the two kingdoms are once again made one like in the days of King David, however now a Greater King David is reigning over the whole house of Israel.

Remind me to discuss this event and where it shall take place!

A glorious vision of Israel in the future as they are made subject to Christ and truly becomes King of the Jews.

Notice in previous verse the Gentile Nations will come to Jerusalem to worship "the name of the Lord" Jesus Christ and the saints with the twelve Apostle ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jer 3:19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.

That is the divine purpose, but how will it be accomplished?

In view of their apostasy (Elijah & Apostle Paul in Rom 11) The Jews rejection and putting to death of the greatest of all Prophets and their profanation of the holy name of Yahweh (See Ezek. 36:20,23 ), how is it possible for them to be nationally redeemed, and Yahweh to still remain just in the sight of flesh?

The question is actually posed by Yahweh:

"But I said, How shall I put thee among the children (i.e. restore them to the status of sons), and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations?"

That is the problem, how is it to be solved?

Only by a complete national confession of the Truth on the part of natrual Israel, and their acceptance of the terms of reformation. Therefore, taking this first part of what we believe will form the message of Elijah to the Jewish people in dispersion, they will be reminded of the extent of the problem, and of their complete unworthiness to receive of the goodness of Yahweh.

They will be told that it will only be established through the mercy of Yahweh, and His love for the fathers of Israel, for though they are "enemies of the gospel" they are still "beloved for the father's sake" (Rom 11:28,29,30).

Isn’t this beautiful "Thou shalt call me, My father" - notice the change in relationship!!!

Natural Israel will recognise Yahweh as their Father and represent Him throughout all the Nations - no longer despised and rejected, rather “praise” among the Nations.

However,

To illustrate the rebellious nature of Israelites in the past, Elijah and his associates (Saints) will review the past history of the nation.

Jer 3:20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.

This message will cause the Jewish people to review their own circumstances, and so come to recognise the truth of the message that they will have received through the prophet.

Widespread lamentation will result:

"A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten Yahweh their God" (Jer 3:21).

The "high places" were places where Israelites used to gather for religious service outside the Temple, and could relate to the synagogues throughout the world where such gatherings will be convened to hear this amazing message.

The sorrow they shall manifest will indicate that they are repentant in heart, and desire to return to the true worship of God. Therefore, the invitation will be issued to them to do so:

"Return, ye backsliding children and I will heal your backslidings!"

And the grateful, heart-broken response:

"Behold, we come unto thee, for Thou art Yahweh our God. Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains (symbolic of nations and empires): truly in Yahweh our God is the salvation of Israel. For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters. We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us; for we have sinned against Yahweh our God, we and our fathers from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of Yahweh our God" (Jer 3:22-25).

This will be the confession of sins that shall be voiced by the Jewish people in dispersion. The great trouble that they shall experience as Gog sweeps throughout the land and threatens to destroy everything built up by the Jews who have returned, as well as the growing opposition and animosity they shall experience from the people among whom they continue to dwell, will provide means that will humble them and make them amenable to such an appeal as Elijah will give.

Now freely confessing their sins, they are anxious to make restitution and return to the favour of Yahweh.

So Elijah or his associates will instruct them as to what they must do:

"If thou wilt return, 0 Israel, saith Yahweh, return unto Me (i.e. do it completely): and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of My sight, then shalt thou not remove, or be driven away. And thou shalt swear, Yahweh liveth in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in Him, and in Him shall they glory" (Jer. 4:1,2).

These are the terms of restitution. Israel must first recognise that Yahweh lives.

In other words, the people must acknowledge His reality. They must do this by deed (put away your abominations) and word (thou shalt swear). Their confession of faith acknowledges that Yahweh lives in truth (they must acknowledge the truth), in judgment they must acknowledge that the punishment that they have received is just), and in righteousness (they must acknowledge the terms of justification by faith).

When that is done, and they are restored, they will provide a channel of righteousness unto all nations. Zechariah declared:

"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the nations, 0 house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong" (Zech. 8:13).

Yahweh will provide them forgiveness of sins, and bring back into land. To that end they must acknowledge that though they are Natural Jews they have no claim upon God, and that as mere Jews they will "wither and fade as the grass of the field", unless they seek the abiding benefits of a faith that elevates Yahweh and His word, for:

"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever" (Isa. 40:8).

Amen

 

[Vengle]

People normally do resist change and when it comes to our most treasured beliefs that change is understandably the most difficult.

There are key pieces to the puzzle missing in our mind when we do not grasp that God chose that flesh nation only to represent carnal man's sin nature. That in no way means he hates the people of that nation. Nor does his divorcing that nation mean he has defaulted on any promises to them, for those promises were all paid to Christ.

Yet you probably know well that the purpose of that Law Covenant is that it was added to manifest sin
in us and convict us of our need not only for the for the ransom of Christ but also to cinch condemnation of the sin nature so that we would repent, receive forgiveness, and by that cleansed conscious before God be able to rise to life in a renewed spirit. (I say renewed because the carnal man's sin nature is also a corrupted spirit within man which competes for our mind and heart.)

These things are all there in the scripture waiting for us to break out of that imprisoning shell called the carnal man so that we are capable of seeing them with eyes of understanding.

Just as that nation of Israel was the body of the fleshly man Jacob and in that body we can look to see the war between the spirit and the flesh (those born only as to flesh from Abraham as was Esau and those born through the spirit as Isaac which is an illustration to us).

In Galatians 4:21-31 the carnal flesh city called Jerusalem (which is also representative of that entire nation) is compared to the one that is the true Jerusalem of the spirit. And Paul began telling of those allegories (illustrations by dramatic representation) by asking just I as I did earlier about divorce, Galatians 4:21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?"

Of course because most would only half hear me as they yet listen through the ears of that carnal man which they cling to knowing no other way, they would therefore be the first to protest with the carnal man's quickness to take offense, saying, "I never said I was trying to restore or be under that Old Law!!!" And with that their eyes remain blinded and their hearing deafened. They have no idea how to use the anti-typical representation which is that fleshly nation and it infrastructure they see.

And they have no idea that they can rebuild that law in many reflections that they believe are something different but yet those reflections cling to containing the carnality of the people under that Old Covenant system. Thus all they have really done is put a new skin over the top of the very same body.

All things are being made new in Christ Jesus and when we cling to that Old Covenant arrangement in any reflection of it we do so either because of fear due to not knowing the better way, or because of misplaced reverence for a system that we did not really understand.

But we can understand if we allow ourselves to be humbled in God's hands.

 

[Insight]

People normally do resist change and when it comes to our most treasured beliefs that change is understandably the most difficult.

There are key pieces to the puzzle missing in our mind when we do not grasp that God chose that flesh nation only to represent carnal man's sin nature. That in no way means he hates the people of that nation. Nor does his divorcing that nation mean he has defaulted on any promises to them, for those promises were all paid to Christ.

Yet you probably know well that the purpose of that Law Covenant is that it was added to manifest sin
in us and convict us of our need not only for the for the ransom of Christ but also to cinch condemnation of the sin nature so that we would repent, receive forgiveness, and by that cleansed conscious before God be able to rise to life in a renewed spirit. (I say renewed because the carnal man's sin nature is also a corrupted spirit within man which competes for our mind and heart.)

These things are all there in the scripture waiting for us to break out of that imprisoning shell called the carnal man so that we are capable of seeing them with eyes of understanding.

Just as that nation of Israel was the body of the fleshly man Jacob and in that body we can look to see the war between the spirit and the flesh (those born only as to flesh from Abraham as was Esau and those born through the spirit as Isaac which is an illustration to us).

In Galatians 4:21-31 the carnal flesh nation called Jerusalem is compared to the one that is the true Jerusalem of the spirit. And Paul began telling of those allegories (illustrations by dramatic representation) by asking just I as I did earlier about divorce, Galatians 4:21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?"

Of course because most would only half hear me as they yet listen through the ears of that carnal man which they cling to knowing know other way, they would therefore be the first to protest with the carnal man's quickness to take offense, saying, "I never said I was trying to restore or be under that Old Law!!!" And with that their eyes remain blinded and their hearing deafened. They have no idea how to use the anti-typical representation which is that fleshly nation and it infrastructure they see.

And they have no idea that they can rebuild that law in many reflections that they believe are something different but yet those reflections cling to containing the carnality of the people under that Old Covenant system. Thus all they have really done is put a new skin over the top of the very same body.

All things are being made new in Christ Jesus and when we cling to that Old Covenant arrangement in any reflection of it we do so either because of fear due to not knowing the better way, or because of misplaced reverence for a system that we did not really understand.

But we can understand if we allow ourselves to be humbled in God's hands.

 

[Insight]

At a future time Yahweh will revisit His People and finish the work began so long ago.

Once they are bought before Yahweh through His beloved Son Jesus Christ the Jewish people will be invited to enter into covenant-relationship with God once more:

"Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: which My covenant they brake, although I was an Husband unto them, saith Yahweh.

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, saith Yahweh, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts: and will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Jer. 31:31-33).

I know Vengle, it has it all – OT covenant, NT covenant – rather beautiful is it not?

The Great theme of the Bible "I will be their God, and they shall be My people"

As per Jer 3 Pastors and teachers will given to Israel in future age: See Jer 3:14,15; 23:3,4 & Isa 30:19-21; 54:13.

Jesus Christ to be revealed to Israel through great power and glory See Zec 12:10 (next).

And just as Jer 3 teaches their forgiveness is not possible under the first covenant as per Heb 10:1,2,3,4; Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16; 3:10-12.

Also Hosea, and other sections of the Word, use the same language which is totally foreign to you Vengle!

"It shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall "come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel" (or El's sowing). - Hos. 1:10-11.

Who shall natural Israel apoint as one head ?

Elijah's appearance and preaching to the Jewish people scattered throughout the nations will be designed to educate them in the Truth that they might separate themselves from the Gentile countries, in which they will be found, and leave for the Land of Promise, being nationally baptised into Christ Jesus en route.

Success will be wrought by Yahweh to admonish their treatment of Him, His Covenant and His Son.

The Psalmist & prophet declares: "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Ps 110:2). They will be willing because the alternative is death in the land of the enemy.

You cannot provide a complete picture Vengle.

So we have the following prophetic picture for Natural Israel

The sins of God's people will be covered "Covered" (Psa 32:1)

They will be removed "Removed" (Psa 103:12)

They will be cast behind God’s back (Isa 38:17)

They will be blotted out (Psa 51:1 & Isa 44:22)

They will be washed away Psa 51:2

And remembered no more (Jer 31:34)

Also sought for but not found as per Jer 50:20

Finally and most gloroiiusly cast into the depths of the sea (Mic 7:19)

All this done to Natural Israel in those days when they be gathered by the saints of the Most High God.

I am left wondering what you will be doing Vengle when this is all happening?

Insight

 

[Vengle]

How grand it is to be able to enter into God’s temple matter not that we are ten thousand miles away from a physical location.

How wonderful it is that matter not where we are, we can bend our knee at His alter and present tokens of our appreciation to Him.

Yet, some who lack in understanding would seek to take our freedom away from us to do that.

John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:6-8 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

 

[Insight]

I am left wondering what you will be doing Vengle when this is all happening?

Insight

Vengle, In the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of his glory (Mat. 19:28), the children in Isaac will reign as "sons," while the children of the flesh will be the king’s subjects, or "servants" See Eze. 46:16,17.

If natural Israel are not restored to Israel / Canaan, the spiritual Israel, that is to say, the prince and his sons, would inherit a kingdom without subjects to serve them.

Vengle - cease from fighting against the Word

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Vengle, In the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of his glory (Mat. 19:28), the children in Isaac will reign as "sons," while the children of the flesh will be the king’s subjects, or "servants" See Eze. 46:16,17.

If natural Israel are not restored to Israel / Canaan, the spiritual Israel, that is to say, the prince and his sons, would inherit a kingdom without subjects to serve them.

Vengle - cease from fighting against the Word

Insight

Give me my head back! :lol:

I absolutely know that is true.

They will be mixed right in with everyone being judged.

There are not even able to be found all twelve tribes today.

Many that do claim this or that tribe have no records to prove it.

My telling you I am a Benjamite means absolutely nothing.

But yet all twelve tribes will indeed be judged.

What does that judgment mean to you?

 

[Insight]

Give me my head back! :lol:

I absolutely know that is true.

They will be mixed right in with everyone being judged.

There are not even able to be found all twelve tribes today.

Many that do claim this or that tribe have no records to prove it.

My telling you I am a Benjamite means absolutely nothing.

But yet all twelve tribes will indeed be judged.

What does that judgment mean to you?

But it meant something to Paul...I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

That something is held in understanding an unfinished work.

Best we leave it here for now. More than enough evidence has been provided for you to digest. I have noticed your inability to enter the Prophetical Word wherein your blindness to the light that shines in a dark place is yet to shine in your heart.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,

I will wait until you heed this Word.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

But it meant something to Paul...I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

That something is held in understanding an unfinished work.

Best we leave it here for now. More than enough evidence has been provided for you to digest. I have noticed your inability to enter the Prophetical Word wherein your blindness to the light that shines in a dark place is yet to shine in your heart.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,

I will wait until you heed this Word.

Insight

I do not agree with you that what Paul said at Romans 11:1-2 means anything more than that him standing right there in front of them as a Jew who was formerly blind, was proof that God had not completely cast off those Jews that he let go into blindness.

You are in my opinion manufacturing conclusions from out of your imagination.

 

[Insight]

Four times within the chapter he refers and associates himself with natural Israel. You can disagree with Paul all you like!

"Thou bearest not the root" Rom 11:18

From where did the Gentiles (you) receive your spiritual life?

What is the root?

Second time I have asked you this question.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Four times within the chapter he refers and associates himself with natural Israel. You can disagree with Paul all you like!

"Thou bearest not the root" Rom 11:18

From where did the Gentiles (you) receive your spiritual life?

What is the root?

Second time I have asked you this question.

Insight

Yes, four times he emphasizes that his having been one of those blind ones and yet standing there to teach them is proof that God had not cast the people of that nation off in their entire number.

When will some get it? Matthew 3:9 "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

From where did the Gentiles receive your spiritual life? Flesh begets flesh. Spirit begets spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

You want me to say from the Jew Jesus and violate what Paul said there at 2Cor. 5:16.

I know, you have the idea that because Jesus said salvation comes from the Jews (at John 4:22) that I cannot be right.

You have misunderstood what Jesus meant by that statement, and that is a problem. Many have done that.

Jesus only meant that the idea (the first knowledge of) salvation comes of (in the sense of being passed on from or through) the Jews. We know salvation comes from God.

 

[Vengle]

Romans 11:18 is not about the root being a Jew.

Paul's point is that the same root gives life to both the Jews and the Gentiles.

But as you see in my post #117, that root is a quickening spirit.

We all draw life from the glorified heavenly Jesus who is no longer wearing any nationality's flesh of this world.

And here is an important thing for us to realize.

The Jewish race is not continued through Jesus as that fleshly body was the sacrificed for our sins. It cannot now be unsacrificed without annulling the benefits it gave us.

The Jews called for the sacrifice of what would have been the life of the future Jewish flesh if Jesus lived on in the flesh and did not sacrifice it so that he could bear children by that flesh.

But they did not allow him to do that.

And the point of Paul's argument is should the Gentiles hate the Jews for that or glory over them!

Certainly not for by it life came also to them.

Get rid of fleshly national barriers.

The Jews should be more glad about that than any Gentile since the Jews killed the hope of their flesh when they killed Jesus.

Now let them be grateful also as Paul was counseling those Gentiles to be.

Recall me saying at the end of post #92 that this need for humility also need come from the other direction?

Now you know what I meant.

Quote from my post #92: "How much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

It would most certainly be ridiculous to arrogantly and with failure to appreciate the remarkable nature of what was done think it would be more difficult.

Beyond that Gentleman, there is another direction from which arrogance also comes. We must avoid both."

 

[Insight]

Yes, four times he emphasizes that his having been one of those blind ones and yet standing there to teach them is proof that God had not cast the people of that nation off in their entire number.
When will some get it? Matthew 3:9 "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
From where did the Gentiles receive your spiritual life? Flesh begets flesh. Spirit begets spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."
You want me to say from the Jew Jesus and violate what Paul said there at 2Cor. 5:16.
I know, you have the idea that because Jesus said salvation comes from the Jews (at John 4:22) that I cannot be right.
You have misunderstood what Jesus meant by that statement, and that is a problem. Many have done that.
Jesus only meant that the idea (the first knowledge of) salvation comes of (in the sense of being passed on from or through) the Jews. We know salvation comes from God.

No, you presume wrong.

You are not ready for the root so let’s speak about why Paul introduces the firstfruit!

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

Paul here is using two metaphors from the Old Testament Scriptures:

1. Firstfruits
2. The olive tree with its root and branches.

Paul is good at taking us back the OT – I think he knows something Vengle about the OT which is yet to be revealed to you. Actually I have noticed your OT understanding could be better.
.
"the first of fruit or grain which was separated from the mass and presented as an offering to God".

This metaphor takes us to the Law as set out in Num. 15:18,19,20,21,

"Then it shall be, that, when ye eat of the bread of the land, ye shall offer up an heave offering unto Yahweh. Ye shall offer up a cake of the first of your dough for an heave offering: as ye do the heave offering of the threshingfloor, so shall ye heave it".

Until this offering had been made, it was not lawful to partake of the benefits of the harvest. From the firstfruits of the harvest dough was made for baking, and of the first of the dough, a cake was baked as an offering unto Yahweh. Obviously, the whole lump of dough (out of which this first loaf of bread was taken and baked) was holy, being "set apart" for this purpose, and was representative of the nation as a whole. On the other hand, the "cake of the first of your dough" was also representative of the lump of dough.

Paul is teaching you about the fathers of Israel (firstfruits) and the nation (fruits to come) that came from them.

Seeing that God accepted the patriarchs as a kind of "cake of the first of the dough", it is obvious that the nation is holy in His sight. As the patriarchs were holy as being separated unto God, so must also be the people who sprung from them.

By the offering of the firstfruits the whole mass was consecrated; thus the holiness of the patriarchs of Israel consecrated all the people who came from them. As Paul later says:

Israel is "beloved for the fathers' sakes" (Rom 11:28).

Are they beloved for their fathers sake Vengle?

Or do you still wrestle with Paul.

 

[Vengle]

You are still not getting it. You do not seem to even know that they are beloved for the father's sake because of the sacrifice they made that salvation could come to the Gentiles.

That was extremely pleasing to God. God divorced Israel and her sister despite those faithful father's. Why? That entire nation was sacrificed that it might present the opportunity to one man of it to fulfill that Law and become the sole possessor of all its promises that those promises could also be shared with men of faith out of every nation of men.

The proverbs says that the wicked are a sacrifice for the righteous. (Proverbs 21:18) But even the fleshly heritage of those past faithful Israelites was sacrificed for the purpose of allowing Jesus to occupy the exact position he had to be in to extend life to the entire world. Galatians 3:16

That is something a natural Israelite or Jew ought to be very proud of instead of fighting against it.

The problem is that you do not know what you don't know. And that is quite normal. I am handing you the keys that came hard for me. If you want to think about them and make it easier on yourself than it was for me to learn these things then now is your opportunity. Many don't. Oh well.

They are beloved because of the sacrifice they made and now all nations are to emulate their example.

Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

None of this means we will cease to have the wonderful differences of the races which is like the variety of flowers. It means only that we become one in Christ and those fleshly pride filled heritages used as a boast by the carnal man are sacrificed for the sake of all. That is why Paul says there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ and so forth. You know this stuff full well. You have just failed to put it all together. Galatians 3:27-28

They would have to take themselves out of Christ to have that old heritage.

Is that what you want them to do?


Echoing right back at you what you said to me, "Or do you still wrestle with Paul."