Hath God cast away his people

[Vengle]

Why do you think Paul has begun his thoughts emphasizing his association of natural Israel

1. Physical Nation
2. Abrahams natural "seed"
3. the natural tribe of Benjamin
What foundation is he laying for the rest of the chapter.

Vengle you have thrown a curve ball?

I think we need to discuss Rom 11:26 sooner rather than later.

Actually, you may like to go and study Isa 59:20 where Paul is quoting first. Its good to grasp where he has his mind in the OT to better understand how he is applying it here in Rom 11:26.

Insight

One problem is with the word "until" at Romans 11:25. it leads you into the wrong impression of verse 26.

That "until" in verse 25 carries the thought "for the finished purpose of" or "the end goal of".

And probably the biggest problem is that Paul saying "in part" in verse 25 also confuses people. People think he means that "part of Israel was blinded".

That is not what the Greek grammar says. It shows that Paul is saying that the reason they were blinded is "in part" (but not totally) to allow the nations to come in.

All Paul is doing is taking the wind out those Gentiles' pride that was telling them they were now something special over the Jews who used to lord it over them. It is all about his getting them into the most efficient mind-set to be effective preachers of the gospel to his fleshly brothers.

As for his saying that in that manner "all Israel will be saved", he is talking about that there are the elect remnant and also the "might save some of them" who are not the elect rulers with Christ (as he spoke about earlier) and they constitute all that was that real Israel. So he has described it and now he is telling us that it is in that manner that "all" those who are saved will be saved.

Every time they won a convert to Christ they were turning ungodliness away from Jacob.

 

[brionne]

Might I add this Pegg.

Why do you think Paul introduces this personal note into his narrative? Rom 11:1?

With love in the Master

its because of what he had just said at the end of Chapter 10:

20 But Isaiah becomes very bold and says: “I was found by those who were not seeking me ; I became manifest to those who were not asking for me.(gentiles/pagans/people of the nations)” 21 But as respects Israel he says: “All day long I have spread out my hands toward a people that is disobedient and talks back.

Paul was showing why God invited the nations into his purpose... it was because Isreal on the most part, were unfaithful and disobedient.

But i like what Vengle says... Paul was also teaching the new gentile believers not to be boastful that they were now accepted and Israel rejected because Gods promise still applied to that faithful remnant of Jews.

In chapter 11:7 he mentions this remnant "What, then? The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it. The rest had their sensibilities blunted; 8 just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of deep sleep,
So Paul is pointing out that some Isrealites had obtained the promises, he was one of them, but many others had not obtained it because God had allowed them to fall into a deep sleep due to their unfaithfulness.

 

[Insight]

You have both made some very valid points and raised some questions, which I am very eager to approach this evening.

However,

I am a little disappointed that neither of you have acknowledged why Paul has begun his thoughts emphasizing his association and his heritage in natural Israel.

In Rom 11:1 he provides you with three (3) pieces of factual evidence concering himself in the following:

1. Born into natural Israel
2. Being of Abrahams natural "seed"
3. A member of natural Benjamin

If you choose to reject his claim to natural Israel - - how can we proceed?

Paul has put to you his thinking in Rom 11:1 and thus far we are dodging around the issue, so it appears.

There is good reason why he started this section this way.

I will wait now until someone acknowledges that Paul is claiming his natural heritage as the basis for his thoughts going forward.

Insight

 

[brionne]

You have both made some very valid points and raised some questions, which I am very eager to approach this evening.

However,

I am a little disappointed that neither of you have acknowledged why Paul has begun his thoughts emphasizing his association and his heritage in natural Israel.

In Rom 11:1 he provides you with three (3) pieces of factual evidence concering himself in the following:

1. Born into natural Israel
2. Being of Abrahams natural "seed"
3. A member of natural Benjamin

If you choose to reject his claim to natural Israel - - how can we proceed?

Paul has put to you his thinking in Rom 11:1 and thus far we are dodging around the issue, so it appears.

There is good reason why he started this section this way.

I will wait now until someone acknowledges that Paul is claiming his natural heritage as the basis for his thoughts going forward.

Insight

i do acknowledge that Paul was stating his jewish heritage. But i think he said that to provide evidence that God had not cast Isreal aside completely.

The fact is that most natural jews had rejected the Messiah. that is fact.

Paul is highlighting that while most had rejected, not all of them had rejected the promise....so he was among the 'remnant' who were saved. I just dont see how the remnant are still a 'future' literal remnant if that is what you have in mind.

 

[Insight]

i thought his purpose for Isreal was to make them a nation in order to bring the Messiah into the world. The 'seed of promise' was made to Abraham before there was a nation.

But the whole context of Romans 11 doesnt seem to be saying that Isreal will still have a purpose. To me, it appears that Paul is reasoning on why the gentiles were being 'grafted in'

As we progress through the Chapter I beleive many more questions will arise.

God has a way of making us think!

i think that to understand why he says "I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham," we need to go back and look at the previous chapters because it is all the same subject.

just going by vs 2 we can see that Paul is using the example of Elijah to show that, even back then, not all Isreal were faithful to God. But God knew exactly who the faithful Isrealites were "God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized. Why, do YOU not know what the Scripture says in connection with E‧li′jah, as he pleads with God against Israel? ...4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left seven thousand men over for myself, [men] who have not bent the knee to Ba′al..."

Now if you go back to chpter 9, we see Paul stating that not all Isreal are faithful to God, but a remnant of them are faithful:
3 For I could wish that I myself were separated as the cursed one from the Christ in behalf of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises;...6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.”

We cannot expect the entire nation of Jews to turn to Christ...it didnt happen in ancient times and its not going to happen today. The sad fact of the matter is that not all 'people' will accept God and Christ...and that includes jewish people. So Paul is saying that Gods word has not failed, his promises to the jews will still be fulfilled on that 'faithful remnant'...Paul being one of that faithful remnant.

Not all who spring from Abraham are really Abrahams children because they do not all have the faith that Abraham had. Some of them do, but not all of them.

I have noticed you both mention "going back" and a "remnant" which appears to inhibit your ability to move "forward". (said respectfully)

Try to park those thoughts to one side, for the moment and lets allow the Word to guide us into truth.

For instance - - what does Paul do in Rom 11:2
.

"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew"

So, in which direction Pegg is God looking?

Insight
​

 

[brionne]

As we progress through the Chapter I beleive many more questions will arise.
God has a way of making us think!

I have noticed you both mention "going back" and a "remnant" which appears to inhibit your ability to move "forward". (said respectfully)
Try to park those thoughts to one side, for the moment and lets allow the Word to guide us into truth.

For instance - - what does Paul do in Rom 11:2
.

"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew"
So, in which direction Pegg is God looking?

Insight
​

im not sure where you are going with this, so maybe you need to reveal a little more of your thoughts on this one

​

 

[Insight]

i do acknowledge that Paul was stating his jewish heritage. But i think he said that to provide evidence that God had not cast Isreal aside completely.

Great!

The fact is that most natural jews had rejected the Messiah. that is fact.

Paul is highlighting that while most had rejected, not all of them had rejected the promise....so he was among the 'remnant' who were saved. I just dont see how the remnant are still a 'future' literal remnant if that is what you have in mind.

You just did it again Pegg...you jump to conclusions which may or may not be true...plus you into the remnant mindset when thus far we are yet to see a remnant mentioned ???

If we are patient the Word will teach.

The pace might be slow but this way at least nothing important is missed.

Insight

im not sure where you are going with this, so maybe you need to reveal a little more of your thoughts on this one
[/left]

Paul having stated he is a natural Jew goes on to say:

"God HATH NOT cast away His people which He foreknew"

Is this the emphasis?

Let me ask you this Pegg.

1. If Paul said this to you personally would you consider him to be dogmatic and without contradiction?

2. And on what basis does Paul make this claim?

 

[brionne]

Great!

You just did it again Pegg...you jump to conclusions which may or may not be true...plus you into the remnant mindset when thus far we are yet to see a remnant mentioned ???

If we are patient the Word will teach.

The pace might be slow but this way at least nothing important is missed.

Insight

he did already mention a remnant though...

ie
11:2 Why, do YOU not know what the Scripture says in connection with E‧li′jah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and they are looking for my soul.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left seven thousand men over for myself, [men] who have not bent the knee to Ba′al.” 5 In this way, therefore, at the present season also a remnant has turned up according to a choosing
Paul himself was one of those remnants and that is why he confirmed his Isrealite heritage.

 

[Insight]

he did already mention a remnant though...

ie
11:2 Why, do YOU not know what the Scripture says in connection with E‧li′jah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and they are looking for my soul.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left seven thousand men over for myself, [men] who have not bent the knee to Ba′al.” 5 In this way, therefore, at the present season also a remnant has turned up according to a choosing
Paul himself was one of those remnants and that is why he confirmed his Isrealite heritage.

Pegg,

I will ask you again

Paul having stated he is a natural Jew goes on to say:

"God HATH NOT cast away His people which He foreknew"

Is this the emphasis?

Let me ask you this Pegg.

1. If Paul said this to you personally would you consider him to be dogmatic and without contradiction?

2. And on what basis does Paul make this claim?
Insight

 

[brionne]

Pegg,

I will ask you again

Paul having stated he is a natural Jew goes on to say:

"God HATH NOT cast away His people which He foreknew"

Is this the emphasis?

Let me ask you this Pegg.

1. If Paul said this to you personally would you consider him to be dogmatic and without contradiction?

2. And on what basis does Paul make this claim?
Insight

well i think you really need to read all the surrounding verses to get the answer to these questions. The surrounding verses give a much better answer then i could give based on just that sentence.

What do you think he is getting at?

 

[Insight]

well i think you really need to read all the surrounding verses to get the answer to these questions. The surrounding verses give a much better answer then i could give based on just that sentence.

What do you think he is getting at?

It is important not to draw to conclusions that may or may not be there.

"God HATH NOT cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom 11:2)

Did God foreknow that natural Israel would turn from Him?

Yes of no?

 

[brionne]

It is important not to draw to conclusions that may or may not be there.

"God HATH NOT cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom 11:2)

Did God know that natural Israel would turn from Him?

Yes of no?

yes i believe he did know for the messianic prophecies of Isaiah 55 state that many would reject the messiah... so God knew that not all would accept his messiah

another example is in Amos 9:8

 

[Insight]

yes i believe he did know for the messianic prophecies of Isaiah 55 state that many would reject the messiah... so God knew that not all would accept his messiah

another example is in Amos 9:8

Sorry Pegg if I seem a little impatient...its an area I need some work on!

So far Jesus Christ is not the subject nor is he even in the picture (yet) we are still up until this point only talking about natural Israel Rom 11:1

I am asking did Yahweh foreknow that natural Israel would reject him? Based on "God HATH NOT cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom 11:2)


BTW Pegg, I am not laying some twisted trap, so you can trust me! I am just trying to grasp what Paul is teaching. :)

 

[brionne]

Sorry Pegg if I seem a little impatient...its an area I need some work on!

So far Jesus Christ is not the subject nor is he even in the picture (yet) we are still up until this point only talking about natural Israel Rom 11:1

I am asking did Yahweh foreknow that natural Israel would reject him? Based on "God HATH NOT cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom 11:2)


BTW Pegg, I am not laying some twisted trap, so you can trust me! I am just trying to grasp what Paul is teaching. :)

well Paul wrote his letter to the Romans long after Jesus has been rejected... so I dont think we can take Pauls words as evidence that God had foreknown of something that had already occured.

you really have to look at what was written BEFORE the first century to see if God foreknew that natural Isreal would reject him. Paul was writing after the fact, so its not really prophecy.

 

[Insight]

well Paul wrote his letter to the Romans long after Jesus has been rejected... so I dont think we can take Pauls words as evidence that God had foreknown of something that had already occured.

you really have to look at what was written BEFORE the first century to see if God foreknew that natural Isreal would reject him. Paul was writing after the fact, so its not really prophecy.

"God HATH NOT cast away His people which He foreknew"

"Foreknew" The Greek word is proginosko, meaning to know beforehand indicates God's ability to discern all that will occur, for He knows the end from the beginning..."declareth the end from the beginning" Isa 46:10

Did Yahweh know that Natural Israel would reject Him?

 

[brionne]

"God HATH NOT cast away His people which He foreknew"

"Foreknew" The Greek word is proginosko, meaning to know beforehand indicates God's ability to discern all that will occur, for He knows the end from the beginning..."declareth the end from the beginning" Isa 46:10

Did Yahweh know that Natural Israel would reject Him?

i already answered that with an affirmative yes.

he knew it because it is written in the hebrew scriptures. Paul was speaking about the hebrew scriptures, so Paul was confirming that God knew beforehand that Isreal would be unfaithful to him.

 

[Insight]

The scriptures Paul has already quoted show that God knew that Israel would turn from Him, I believe this is important context to what follows...and sets the scene for Pauls argument.

If God did foreknow Israel’s rejection of him dont you find it interesting that He still selected the nation as the vehicle of His message of salvation to mankind?

And if this is true how could we suggest God would dispose of that same nation by going against His decision to select them in the first place?

Take Jacob as an example.

God selected Jacob, recognising the weaknesses that he would reveal through his life, but understanding also that through suffering Jacob would rise to faithfulness before Him (See Rom. 9:10,11,12,13).

Have we seen this type of transformation from Natural Israel to date? Other than people like the Apostle Paul who stand as examples of what is to come. Rom 11:1,2

Of course these are men and women who seek for the honour of the “God of Jacob”. See 2 Sam 23:1; Psa 20:1; 146:5; Isa 2:3

Think it over as we move further into Rom 11:2

Insight

 

[brionne]

The scriptures Paul has already quoted show that God knew that Israel would turn from Him, I believe this is important context to what follows...and sets the scene for Pauls argument.

If God did foreknow Israel’s rejection of him dont you find it interesting that He still selected the nation as the vehicle of His message of salvation to mankind?

but he had to because the Messiah had to be born through Abraham's decedents as prophesied and as promised to Abraham. The seed had to be a decendent of King David and of the tribe of Judah. But that did not mean that the messiah would be tarnished because during all of Isreals history, there have always been individual Jews who have remained faithful and loyal to God.

And if this is true how could we suggest God would dispose of that same nation by going against His decision to select them in the first place?

I dont think its that God disposed of them...i think they had disposed of God when they rejected their Messiah and for that reason, God 'turned his attention to the nations to take out a people for his name' Acts 15:14

Take Jacob as an example.

God selected Jacob, recognising the weaknesses that he would reveal through his life, but understanding also that through suffering Jacob would rise to faithfulness before Him (See Rom. 9:10,11,12,13).

Have we seen this type of transformation from Natural Israel to date? Other than people like the Apostle Paul who stand as examples of what is to come. Rom 11:1,2

Of course these are men and women who seek for the honour of the “God of Jacob”. See 2 Sam 23:1; Psa 20:1; 146:5; Isa 2:3

Think it over as we move further into Rom 11:2

Insight

im not sure of that, there may be individual jews who have come to accept Christ and thus been joined to God through their faith, but as a whole, no. The nation of isreal have not accepted Christ, so i dont think we can say that they are being collected today as a nation.

 

[Vengle]

Romans 11:11 “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”


In other words, was the purpose of those prophecies that were cited in verses 7-10, that they should stumble and fall completely?


The obvious answer is no, for they would not be preached to like everyone else otherwise, and yet we see that they were by Paul and by all of the Apostles and by all of the churches.


Paul is yet working on that attitude of the Gentiles who thought that was what God had done and thus they had the attitude, “Those Jews are right where they ought to be!”


Compare that attitude that Paul was dealing with in the Gentiles to God’s attitude: Ezekiel 18:23 “Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?”


So we can see that Paul not only was working to groom the Gentile preachers he needed to maximize his hopes that as many as possible of his blinded Jews might be saved, but more importantly Paul was teaching them to widen out in true godly love that would benefit them and everyone. Mercy is an offspring of love.


That tells us just what Paul had previously on two occasions said, “Some [of those blind ones] might be saved.”

 

[Insight]

Romans 11:11 “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”


In other words, was the purpose of those prophecies that were cited in verses 7-10, that they should stumble and fall completely?


The obvious answer is no, for they would not be preached to like everyone else otherwise, and yet we see that they were by Paul and by all of the Apostles and by all of the churches.


Paul is yet working on that attitude of the Gentiles who thought that was what God had done and thus they had the attitude, “Those Jews are right where they ought to be!”


Compare that attitude that Paul was dealing with in the Gentiles to God’s attitude: Ezekiel 18:23 “Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?”


So we can see that Paul not only was working to groom the Gentile preachers he needed to maximize his hopes that as many as possible of his blinded Jews might be saved, but more importantly Paul was teaching them to widen out in true godly love that would benefit them and everyone. Mercy is an offspring of love.


That tells us just what Paul had previously on two occasions said, “Some [of those blind ones] might be saved.”

If you consider the Greek "fall" & "stumble" you can glean a deeper understanding of this verse.

Did Israel completely and utterly fall? or a momentary stumble?

Quick summary so far with natural Israel highlighted in blue

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? Rom 11:1,2

So thus far we can determine that Paul's mind is centered on the Natrual state of Israel.