Having begun in the Spirit

[farouk]

... some posts try to keep people in bondage to condemnation with what they try to share on here as truth .

Legalism is always an easy way out, I think...but not Biblical.

 

[Helen]

I keep seeing replies that a truly saved person will not sin. So this is what I was referring to.

Is it that a 'truly saved person does not sin..' or is it that a saved person cannot sin.?..which brings us back to what is NT sin?
In everything Paul writes I see "missing the mark" failure it hitting the bullseye. "Anything which is not of faith, IS sin."

For me as I read this Site I see over and over people talking about "sins"... yet I believe Jesus took our sin on the cross.
The failure of the flesh man ( which @farouk mentioned) is what our daily battle is about.

I may get stoned, but I am a believer that God sent Jesus to fill in the sin gap that was between God and Man. And Jesus said "It is finished".

Now, as has been said...we fight the good fight of faith...
Faith in what?
= Believing that what God said that Jesus did, He actually DID!!
Faith, in believe what GOD says about us now..not what our performance is.
Paul says .." Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid.." NO, we don't deliberately give in to our flesh just because Jesus has set us free... our freedom is not 'an occasion for the flesh'.

We must deny self, as Paul taught us... since day one...and even before, with Lucifer..'self' has always been the problem.

Now we must switch and maintain...not self, but CHRIST fill our vision.

 

[Helen]

Hey, Friend Of. I would say about this that you just need to keep resting in Him and walking with Him, trusting Him to complete the good work He has begun in you. If you try to accomplish sanctification by "focusing on things" in your own strength it simply won't work and you will just stress yourself out, so a life governed and led by the Spirit will be one that is not only increasingly successful in bringing the fleshly and soulish natures under, but also will be free of stress in the process.

Blessings in Christ, brother.
Hidden

Oh, nice to see you! I wrote to you saying that you were missed...now I come on the Forum and see that you had been here after all.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Is it that a 'truly saved person does not sin..' or is it that a saved person cannot sin.?..which brings us back to what is NT sin?
In everything Paul writes I see "missing the mark" failure it hitting the bullseye. "Anything which is not of faith, IS sin."

For me as I read this Site I see over and over people talking about "sins"... yet I believe Jesus took our sin on the cross.
The failure of the flesh man ( which @farouk mentioned) is what our daily battle is about.

I may get stoned, but I am a believer that God sent Jesus to fill in the sin gap that was between God and Man. And Jesus said "It is finished".

Now, as has been said...we fight the good fight of faith...
Faith in what?
= Believing that what God said that Jesus did, He actually DID!!
Faith, in believe what GOD says about us now..not what our performance is.
Paul says .." Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid.." NO, we don't deliberately give in to our flesh just because Jesus has set us free... our freedom is not 'an occasion for the flesh'.

We must deny self, as Paul taught us... since day one...and even before, with Lucifer..'self' has always been the problem.

Now we must switch and maintain...not self, but CHRIST fill our vision.

I totally agree with you!

 

[amadeus]

Exactly...the flesh is corrupt....Paul was struggling in his own self and finally concluded that he discovered a law....where good is present evil is present also.

The only exception to this would be the person who had already overcome the world as Jesus overcame the world. Among men, who but another overcomer would definitely recognize such a person?

 

[Heart2Soul]

The only exception to this would be the person who had already overcome the world as Jesus overcame the world. Among men, who but another overcomer would definitely recognize such a person?

That is a good point. I also consider that what we overcome is the "will" to sin...in other words those desires of the flesh are no longer what we "will" for our life....however occasionally one can stumble in that sin in a weak monent. Hence, as scripture says if we walk after the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Christians have to daily gird themselves up with spiritual armor, prayer, reading the word and meditating continuously ....otherwise they can become weak and unable to withstand the attack of the enemy or the temptation set before us.

 

[Enoch111]

Oh, nice to see you! I wrote to you saying that you were missed...now I come on the Forum and see that you had been here after all.

That's called hiding in plain sight.

 

[amadeus]

That is a good point. I also consider that what we overcome is the "will" to sin...in other words those desires of the flesh are no longer what we "will" for our life....however occasionally one can stumble in that sin in a weak monent. Hence, as scripture says if we walk after the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Christians have to daily gird themselves up with spiritual armor, prayer, reading the word and meditating continuously ....otherwise they can become weak and unable to withstand the attack of the enemy or the temptation set before us.

Yes, the battles rage daily within us. When we let the weariness of the flesh rule the roust for even a moment, that moment may be the moment we sin one more time. God loses no battles, but when for whatever reason we quench the Holy Spirit in us, then we lose and sin.

As you say, we need to be doing something always to keep us focused on Him, be it reading the scripture, praying, singing onto the Lord, etc.
People too often speak as if the flesh were dead when it is not. What comes to my mind is the 5 foolish virgins. They knew what to do but failed to take proper action until it was too late.

 

[mjrhealth]

The only exception to this would be the person who had already overcome the world as Jesus overcame the world. Among men, who but another overcomer would definitely recognize such a person?

Im still looking... But than Jesus already overcame the world, so I am ok with that.

 

[farouk]

That is a good point. I also consider that what we overcome is the "will" to sin...in other words those desires of the flesh are no longer what we "will" for our life....however occasionally one can stumble in that sin in a weak monent. Hence, as scripture says if we walk after the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Christians have to daily gird themselves up with spiritual armor, prayer, reading the word and meditating continuously ....otherwise they can become weak and unable to withstand the attack of the enemy or the temptation set before us.

I do love that verse, Philippians 1.6: 'He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ'.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Yes, the battles rage daily within us. When we let the weariness of the flesh rule the roust for even a moment, that moment may be the moment we sin one more time. God loses no battles, but when for whatever reason we quench the Holy Spirit in us, then we lose and sin.

As you say, we need to be doing something always to keep us focused on Him, be it reading the scripture, praying, singing onto the Lord, etc.
People too often speak as if the flesh were dead when it is not. What comes to my mind is the 5 foolish virgins. They knew what to do but failed to take proper action until it was too late.

Only question I have about quenching the Holy Spirt....if the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts our heart of our sin, and leads us into repentance through that conviction then isn't He continuously striving with us to teach us to grow stronger in Spirit and in Truth and to walk after the Spirit so that the flesh cannot have its way so easily.

 

[farouk]

Only question I have about quenching the Holy Spirt....if the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts our heart of our sin, and leads us into repentance through that conviction then isn't He continuously striving with us to teach us to grow stronger in Spirit and in Truth and to walk after the Spirit so that the flesh cannot have its way so easily.

The New Testament speaks about both His indwelling of the born again, and also of being filled with the Spirit as a daily ongoing opportunity and challenge. Galatians has a wonderful passage about the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[farouk]

Christians have to daily gird themselves up with spiritual armor, prayer, reading the word and meditating continuously ....otherwise they can become weak and unable to withstand the attack of the enemy or the temptation set before us.

PS: This is where the Armour of God passage in Ephesians 6 becomes very relevant; and I know you have already mediated much on this passage!

 

[amadeus]

Only question I have about quenching the Holy Spirt....if the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts our heart of our sin, and leads us into repentance through that conviction then isn't He continuously striving with us to teach us to grow stronger in Spirit and in Truth and to walk after the Spirit so that the flesh cannot have its way so easily.

What I see is a need for each of us to eat of His Flesh continuously and to drink of His Blood continuously. When we continuously partake then we always have what is needed to resist the devil and to win every battle. How well we use what we have is then up to us. Even if we have all that is needful, it is still possible to turn aside or to continue to look when we should be turning away.

Peter is the easiest example that comes to mind. By faith he stepped out of the boat and walked on water. He was looking at Jesus and he could have continued to do so. Instead he looked down and let the fear in his flesh consume him for a moment. He began to sink. The good thing is that he did not allow himself to sink beneath the water before he called out to Jesus for help. In that case, since it was before the Holy Spirit was poured out, it was the first Comforter, Jesus Himself, who answered his call for help directly.

If we are not on regular speaking terms with God... then who would we ask to help us? If we get into the Spirit daily and read or hear the scripture so that it is quickened within us, He is always right there to also take hold of our hand before we sink too deep in that sea, into death.

People who really pray and read the scriptures from their heart will have such immediate access to God. Early in a person's walk with God likely God will be very lenient, [read: merciful] toward us and help us when our preparation falls short of the ideal, but as we grow toward God is He likely to continue to be so merciful? While we are on milk, God will be very merciful, but if we really get into the meat we will have less excuse for failing to do our part. If a person stays on milk for many years never approaching, much less partaking of the meat, the chances are that somewhere along the way he has lost his love for truth and unbeknownst to himself, he walks in delusion:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev 2:4-5

 

[farouk]

What I see is a need for each of us to eat of His Flesh continuously and to drink of His Blood continuously. When we continuously partake then we always have what is needed to resist the devil and to win every battle. How well we use what we have is then up to us. Even if we have all that is needful, it is still possible to turn aside or to continue to look when we should be turning away.

Peter is the easiest example that comes to mind. By faith he stepped out of the boat and walked on water. He was looking at Jesus and he could have continued to do so. Instead he looked down and let the fear in his flesh consume him for a moment. He began to sink. The good thing is that he did not allow himself to sink beneath the water before he called out to Jesus for help. In that case, since it was before the Holy Spirit was poured out, it was the first Comforter, Jesus Himself, who answered his call for help directly.

If we are not on regular speaking terms with God... then who would we ask to help us? If we get into the Spirit daily and read or hear the scripture so that it is quickened within us, He is always right there to also take hold of our hand before we sink too deep in that sea, into death.

People who really pray and read the scriptures from their heart will have such immediate access to God. Early in a person's walk with God likely God will be very lenient, [read: merciful] toward us and help us when our preparation falls short of the ideal, but as we grow toward God is He likely to continue to be so merciful? While we are on milk, God will be very merciful, but if we really get into the meat we will have less excuse for failing to do our part. If a person stays on milk for many years never approaching, much less partaking of the meat, the chances are that somewhere along the way he has lost his love for truth and unbeknownst to himself, he walks in delusion:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev 2:4-5

This eating and drinking by faith is as I understand it along the lines of John 6, rather than supposedly about the Lord's Supper, as some would try to advance.

 

[Heart2Soul]

What I see is a need for each of us to eat of His Flesh continuously and to drink of His Blood continuously. When we continuously partake then we always have what is needed to resist the devil and to win every battle. How well we use what we have is then up to us. Even if we have all that is needful, it is still possible to turn aside or to continue to look when we should be turning away.

Peter is the easiest example that comes to mind. By faith he stepped out of the boat and walked on water. He was looking at Jesus and he could have continued to do so. Instead he looked down and let the fear in his flesh consume him for a moment. He began to sink. The good thing is that he did not allow himself to sink beneath the water before he called out to Jesus for help. In that case, since it was before the Holy Spirit was poured out, it was the first Comforter, Jesus Himself, who answered his call for help directly.

If we are not on regular speaking terms with God... then who would we ask to help us? If we get into the Spirit daily and read or hear the scripture so that it is quickened within us, He is always right there to also take hold of our hand before we sink too deep in that sea, into death.

People who really pray and read the scriptures from their heart will have such immediate access to God. Early in a person's walk with God likely God will be very lenient, [read: merciful] toward us and help us when our preparation falls short of the ideal, but as we grow toward God is He likely to continue to be so merciful? While we are on milk, God will be very merciful, but if we really get into the meat we will have less excuse for failing to do our part. If a person stays on milk for many years never approaching, much less partaking of the meat, the chances are that somewhere along the way he has lost his love for truth and unbeknownst to himself, he walks in delusion:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev 2:4-5

I agree with everything you are saying....I am just trying to convey that it is the heart that God judges and though the flesh may be a stumbling block for a believer if he has a repentful and remorseful heart who is continuously praying and asking God to deliver them from the sin that so easily besets them....would God not have mercy on them and deliver them.....David prayed in Psalm 51:10...Create in me a clean heart, Oh Lord, and renew a right spirit within me.....David knew he still had issues in his heart that needed purging....and a renewed spirit that would enable him to overcome the sins of his past and present.
Jesus died on the cross not only to cover sins but to set the captives free, to heal the sick, to deliver us from the snares of the enemy. Not everyone's deliverance comes as timely as others and it is a wretched life to live to be so weak spiritually that they struggle to overcome their sins.....I am talking about lusts of the flesh, unforgiveness, disobedience, and whatever it is that some get bound up in.
I was a smoker for years and was constantly being convicted that it was harming His temple...and though I cried and prayed and begged God to take away that desire it plagued me and tormented me. It is only recently that I have finally been able to walk away from it.

 

[farouk]

I agree with everything you are saying....I am just trying to convey that it is the heart that God judges and though the flesh may be a stumbling block for a believer if he has a repentful and remorseful heart who is continuously praying and asking God to deliver them from the sin that so easily besets them....would God not have mercy on them and deliver them.....David prayed in Psalm 51:10...Create in me a clean heart, Oh Lord, and renew a right spirit within me.....David knew he still had issues in his heart that needed purging....and a renewed spirit that would enable him to overcome the sins of his past and present.
Jesus died on the cross not only to cover sins but to set the captives free, to heal the sick, to deliver us from the snares of the enemy. Not everyone's deliverance comes as timely as others and it is a wretched life to live to be so weak spiritually that they struggle to overcome their sins.....I am talking about lusts of the flesh, unforgiveness, disobedience, and whatever it is that some get bound up in.
I was a smoker for years and was constantly being convicted that it was harming His temple...and though I cried and prayed and begged God to take away that desire it plagued me and tormented me. It is only recently that I have finally been able to walk away from it.

Congrats. on quitting smoking. (I think it's more of a health than a doctrinal thing...)

Yes, Psalm 51 is so searching...

 

[amadeus]

This eating and drinking by faith is as I understand it along the lines of John 6, rather than supposedly about the Lord's Supper, as some would try to advance.

Some would separate the two things, the eating and drinking as per John 6; and the Lord's Supper, but I do not... at least not in the same way as some would do. The Lord's Supper for me is simply a type or shadow of the real thing. If we sip a bit of wine [or grape juice] and taste a bit of bread [made from grain] that is the type or shadow.

The real thing is the Word of God. When a person reads something [a verse of scripture] which is the real dead flesh of Jesus and it is then quickened [brought to Life] by the Holy Spirit in us then that is the real thing. In the OT or in the NT, a person may partake of the types or shadows [wine and bread from grain] and God may allow it [winking at our ignorance; Acts 17:30], but eventually as we grow, we must move from the type or shadow into the real thing. We must move from the milk to the meat [letter to Spirit]. To fail to do so will eventually leave us in death:

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:5-6

 

[farouk]

Some would separate the two things, the eating and drinking as per John 6; and the Lord's Supper, but I do not... at least not in the same way as some would do. The Lord's Supper for me is simply a type or shadow of the real thing. If we sip a bit of wine [or grape juice] and taste a bit of bread [made from grain] that is the type or shadow.

The real thing is the Word of God. When a person reads something [a verse of scripture] which is the real dead flesh of Jesus and it is then quickened [brought to Life] by the Holy Spirit in us then that is the real thing. In the OT or in the NT, a person may partake of the types or shadows [wine and bread from grain] and God may allow it [winking at our ignorance; Acts 17:30], but eventually as we grow, we must move from the type or shadow into the real thing. We must move from the milk to the meat [letter to Spirit]. To fail to do so will eventually leave us in death:

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:5-6

Yes, there is truth to a lot of what you say, as I see it. Yes, we need to be feeding daily on the Word of God. (Some ppl do see the Lord's Supper as something to be done by rote and thereby supposedly gain merit.)

 

[amadeus]

I agree with everything you are saying....I am just trying to convey that it is the heart that God judges and though the flesh may be a stumbling block for a believer if he has a repentful and remorseful heart who is continuously praying and asking God to deliver them from the sin that so easily besets them....would God not have mercy on them and deliver them.....David prayed in Psalm 51:10...Create in me a clean heart, Oh Lord, and renew a right spirit within me.....David knew he still had issues in his heart that needed purging....and a renewed spirit that would enable him to overcome the sins of his past and present.
Jesus died on the cross not only to cover sins but to set the captives free, to heal the sick, to deliver us from the snares of the enemy. Not everyone's deliverance comes as timely as others and it is a wretched life to live to be so weak spiritually that they struggle to overcome their sins.....I am talking about lusts of the flesh, unforgiveness, disobedience, and whatever it is that some get bound up in.
I was a smoker for years and was constantly being convicted that it was harming His temple...and though I cried and prayed and begged God to take away that desire it plagued me and tormented me. It is only recently that I have finally been able to walk away from it.

Look again at David, who as the scripture makes plain stumbled badly with the murder of Uriah and adultery with Uriah's wife [Bathsheba]. Something people don't often mention is the wives of David? He did have several.

Did God or Jesus ever say in scripture it was OK to have more than one spouse, especially at the same time? No, on the contrary, but David was growing all the time that he lived as a man. Man had moved very far away from what Adam and Eve had in Eden prior to their disobedience. God did not take two or three or four or a dozen ribs from Adam to form Eve. He only took one:

"And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?" Matt 19:5

David was never confronted with the error of having several wives, at least not in written scripture. In his son, Solomon, we see this error brought to light and exposed for the sin which came from it: His many wives turned his heart away from God.

Solomon it appears lost out with God in the end. David did not. Was David perfect? Yes, in what he had and what he knew he was because even though he stumbled and sinned, when confronted with his errors, he repented.

God's judgment is always fair. We are judged by what we do with what we have. David, apparently never had a conviction against polygamy, even though it misses what was in the beginning with our first parents in the flesh. What we have for our judgment is our present understanding and conviction. If we blatantly go against what God has shown us without even trying to fix, we are in trouble. But... if we have strived or are striving to fix it, is God not fair?

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:47-48