HE THAT KEEPS MY SAYINGS SHALL NEVER SEE DEATH - JOHN 8:51

[The Kreisel]

You won't find any of the False Five-Fold Ministries preaching John 8:51. Those "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" avoid it (if they have even read it) like they avoid Romans 8:13.

Wolves in sheep's clothing produce other wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You won't find any of the False Five-Fold Ministries preaching John 8:51. Those "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" avoid it (if they have even read it) like they avoid Romans 8:13.

Wolves in sheep's clothing produce other wolves in sheep's clothing.

Ok. Blessings in Christ, and question #1:

What does the five-fold ministry have to do with either of those verses you cited?

 

[The Kreisel]

Ok. Blessings in Christ, and question #1:

What does the five-fold ministry have to do with either of those verses you cited?

I stated the 'False Five-Fold Ministries' - which is basically every minister you can imagine. They're all in the "Wide Gate to Death" - Matthew 7:13.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I stated the Fake Five-Fold Ministries - which is basically every minister you can imagine.

Yes. I followed you there. My question was, what does the five-fold ministry have to do with those verses you cited?

 

[The Kreisel]

Yes. I followed you there. My question was, what does the five-fold ministry have to do with those verses you cited?

You'll have to reframe your question, I already answered you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You'll have to reframe your question, I already answered you.

Ok, LoL. I'll give it one more shot.

How do the two verses you cited in the OP relate to the rest of the statements you made in it? Reframe your OP into a single coherent and driving point first, and then show how the verses you cited support it.

God bless.

 

[The Kreisel]

Ok, LoL. I'll give it one more shot.

How do the two verses you cited in the OP relate to the rest of the statements you made in it? Reframe your OP into a single coherent and driving point first, and then show how the verses you cited support it.

God bless.

If you read the context of Matthew 7:13-15, it's clear the "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing"(15) keep the masses in the Wide Gate to Death, not narrow path to life (13-14). Thus, they would never begin to elaborate on John 8:51. Hence, Fake Five-Fold. If you read Eph 4:11-3, they are supposed to lead "unto a perfect man".
But most preach, "nobody is perfect".

They have "No fruit to perfection" Luke 8:14.
I challenge you to name one ministry that is not a Fake Five Fold.

 

[Renniks]

You should start the "never die" church, lol Of course your numbers are going to plummet after the first member passes away.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you read the context of Matthew 7:13-15, it's clear the "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing"(15) keep the masses in the Wide Gate to Death, not narrow path to life (13-14).

Ok, let's start here then. Technically, the text doesn't say that the wolves "keep the masses in the wide gate." What they actually do, if you follow the natural flow of the analogy, is prey upon those who do not stay on the straight and narrow. They have no power to "keep" anything, but they will prey upon those who stray from the true path.

13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

Thus, they would never begin to elaborate on John 8:51. Hence, Fake Five-Fold. If you read Eph 4:11-3, they are supposed to lead "unto a perfect man". But most preach, "nobody is perfect".

Ah... I see where you are going now, at least as far as the direction. Ok, then first off tell me exactly how you are interpreting John 8:51, more particularly how you would elaborate on it, as opposed to how they would not

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.

They have "No fruit to perfection" Luke 8:14.

Here, too. How exactly would you define the words "bearing fruit unto perfection"?

 

[The Kreisel]

You should start the "never die" church, lol Of course your numbers are going to plummet after the first member passes away.

Jesus already did, the church you think of, is Babylon the Whore (Rev 17-18) [VERY INAPPROPRIATE FOR THE FORUM].

You are so easy to 'Checkmate!'

 

[The Kreisel]

Ok, let's start here then. Technically, the text doesn't say that the wolves "keep the masses in the wide gate." What they actually do, if you follow the natural flow of the analogy, is prey upon those who do not stay on the straight and narrow. They have no power to "keep" anything, but they will prey upon those who stray from the true path.

13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.


Ah... I see where you are going now, at least as far as the direction. Ok, then first off tell me exactly how you are interpreting John 8:51, more particularly how you would elaborate on it, as opposed to how they would not

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.


Here, too. How exactly would you define the words "bearing fruit unto perfection"?

Give it a shot, and I'll correct you if you're wrong.

 

[Renniks]

Jesus already did, the church you think of, is Babylon the Whore (Rev 17-18) -
She has welcomed you with open-legs.

You are so easy to 'Checkmate!'

I don't know what you think you just said.

 

[The Kreisel]

I don't know what you think you just said.

Your key phrase "I don't know" - Yes, you don't know.

I am not who you think I am, you are who you think I am.

 

[The Kreisel]

I don't know what you think you just said.

This forum and those on it, cause me to think of II Peter 3:16:
"As also in All his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrestle with,
as they do also the other scriptures,
unto their own destruction (death)."

 

[Hidden In Him]

Give it a shot, and I'll correct you if you're wrong.

LoL. See, when you create a thread and take a dogmatic stand in presenting a particular theological argument, you are in effect saying you are ready to defend what you are saying. As such, I am asking you to do so.

This forum and those on it, cause me to think of II Peter 3:16:
"As also in All his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrestle with,
as they do also the other scriptures,
unto their own destruction (death)."

Well, looks like we aren't going to be getting anywhere, unfortunately. You are now claiming that we don't understand you when in fact you are openly refusing to answer questions. This doesn't make for anything resembling a discussion; just sort of an accusation that you don't present any sufficient defenses for.

Well no hard feelings. But most of us on this forum are willing to actually discuss things together rather than evade and accuse at the same time.

God bless, and interesting discussion while it lasted.
Hidden in Him

 

[The Kreisel]

LoL. See, when you create a thread and take a dogmatic stand in presenting a particular theological argument, you are in effect saying you are ready to defend what you are saying. As such, I am asking you to do so.


Well, looks like we aren't going to be getting anywhere, unfortunately. You are now claiming that we don't understand you when in fact you are openly refusing to answer questions. This doesn't make for anything resembling a discussion; just sort of an accusation that you don't present any sufficient defenses for.

Well no hard feelings. But most of us on this forum are willing to actually discuss things together rather than evade and accuse at the same time.

God bless, and interesting discussion while it lasted.
Hidden in Him

All that because you're afraid to define what "fruit of perfection" is -
Don't wanna get caught with your pants down, eh?
You simply have cognitive dissonance.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

A lot going on there in Romans 8, eh?

 

[The Kreisel]

@Renniks - @Hidden In Him needs your help in understanding what "Fruit of Perfection" is (Luke 8:14).
Try to use scripture though, there is enough carnal-mindedness on this forum, attempting to rationalize scriptures they have not dealt with before.

 

[Renniks]

Your key phrase "I don't know" - Yes, you don't know.

I am not who you think I am, you are who you think I am.

gobblygook. Or more like a child on the playground shouting incoherently. If you don't present clear teaching, no one is going to understand it. and you certainly have not presented your theology clearly.

 

[The Kreisel]

gobblygook. Or more like a child on the playground shouting incoherently. If you don't present clear teaching, no one is going to understand it. and you certainly have not presented your theology clearly.

John 8:51 is too clear for you - like a blinding light, and you have to squint your eyes.
Is there something you don't understand about John 8:51 - it is my theology.

You can always try to rationalize it and state - 'that just means spiritual death'.
Give it a try.

 

[Renniks]

John 8:51 is too clear for you - like a blinding light, and you have to squint your eyes.
Is there something you don't understand about John 8:51 - it is my theology.

You can always try to rationalize it and state - 'that just means spiritual death'.
Give it a try.

One verse theology is always deficient. Context is everything.

Jesus has already pointed out that the men attacking Him have no interest in the message of God. He has used various expressions to convey this: they "do not believe" (John 8:46), they "do not hear" (John 8:47), "the word finds no place" in them (John 8:37), they "cannot bear to hear" the word (John 8:43). This rejection proves that these people "walk in darkness" (John 8:12). They have rejected the one and only source of spiritual truth (John 8:12), and so they will die in their sins (John 8:21) instead of finding forgiveness (John 3:36).

Jesus's words here are in contrast to those who do not "hear," "walk," or "believe" according to His message. Those who "keep His word," in this context, are those who express saving faith in God's Son (John 3:16–18). Those who reject Christ, however, are condemned to spiritual death (John 3:18; John 3:36).

You make the same mistake they did, to think he's speaking of physical death.

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”