Healthy Relating....What does it consist of?

[Behold]

God's completion of Redemption was created and offered in such a way that the rational mind of Man, is omitted from grasping it.
God's plan of salvation is faith based vs logic based.
God comes here, is virgin born, dies on The Cross, and is resurrected from the Dead.
None of that is Logical to the human mind, but to God it makes perfect sense.
As the heavens are to the earth, so are God's ways higher then man's.

The Father created the option of eternally restored relationship to Him so thats its based solely on Himself .
To do this, He had to create "redemption" so that its a matter of freewill and trust via FAITH.
Faith is an operation of the heart, that involves no WORKS.

God is a Spiritual Being, a Holy Spiritual Being, who exists outside of time, and without beginning or end.
God devised His eternal redemption of man as His responsibility, alone.
God said that "life is in the blood", and so, He gave His Blood that is HIS LIFE into the dead, as a Gift.
God's Life is in God's Blood and this Blood is Eternal Life. When it touches you through your faith, you are made NEW and Kept Clean.

God said that there is no greater love that a man can commit then to lay down His life for a friend.
God greatly and supernatually surpassed this "man's finest love" by Offering Himself as a sacrifice of LOVE to His Enemies.
God's Love took full responsibility upon Himself to redeem man's sin, which redeems Mankind back to God.
The Cross, is God literally taking full responsibility for Man's Free willfull disconnection from God.
The Cross is the everlasting bridge between God and Man, that has been built by the blood and body and death of Jesus, and is sustained forever by God's faithfulness.

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith is an operation of the heart, that involves no WORKS.

Except that faith, when it is living, produces works.

 

[DNB]

And you will die in your sins because you reject the Deity of Jesus, John 8:24.

But I know how stubborn JW's can be....so I am not going to try to convince you of the truth. Especially if you are not going to take the time to read what I have written on the subject.

Well, I'm not JW, ...you should've understood that by my comment about not accepting any theology the deifies Jesus, or any creature?
The thing is, I've already had a taste of your rationale, as you have mine, and I profoundly disagree with your exegesis entirely, ...thus, even as basic or fundamental as your hermeneutics. I'm not trying to insult, but equally, am I going to be able to offer you a treatise on my Christology (I have one), probably not?
Let's put it this why, John 8:24 does not make your point (you continually do this - jump to conclusions and take passages out of context). In other words, I personally believe that you, or anyone, will die in their sins if they confess Jesus to be God on any level. I believe that you have denied the son, that is, you won't accept God's pre-eminent creature and all the wisdom and humility that this requires, unless he's God. You undermined God's pre-established will.

Ephesians 1:9-10
1:9. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10. to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let's put it this why, John 8:24 does not make your point (you continually do this - jump to conclusions and take passages out of context).

It does indeed make my point to those who will not harden their heart against that point.

Also, it is a primary rule of hermeneutics that every verse of scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth; and that the plain meaning of any singular verse is never nullified by the context.

Of course you are always free to look up the context of any verse that I may quote or reference...that is why I give the reference....so you can be a Berean (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11) and do your own study.

 

[Nancy]

Hello Fellow Sojourners,

I've been thinking....the Gospel tells us we have been given an unspeakable gift. Wow, thats a pretty tall order to get ones head around. It is so magnificent it will take eternity to unpack. As the eons roll by we will ever find things to wonder about in God's condescension of identifying with us as human and doing what nobody thought was possible......It is our immense privilege to chew on this wonder....to suck the marrow out of every morsel of light given.

Of all the theories and stories that abound of the world's religions/belief systems. Of all the fantasy and incredible lengths of ignorance over the millennia that people have indulged in various cultures and their explanations of purpose/reasons of reality including the practices associated with these views, it is easy to dismiss the story of a God who came to Earth, paid for sins and went back to Heaven as just another theory of the roll of the dice theories that abound.

Those however whose epiphanies switch the light on in their understanding are changed.....something fundamentally shifts in how they see.
At a level where the rubber hits the road one could say that shift translates in the way they learn to relate (behave). We can say this different ways yet meaning the same thing...from dysfunction to function....from sin to holiness....from disconnection to connection.....from rebellion to sanctification. All these speak of how one sees and behaves; the two are inseparable.

Let's see if we can qualify function from dysfunction in the nitty gritty of living. Let's see if we can identify one from the other....if we can find words to articulate these sentiments as we understand them.

Who will be our starting contributor?

Hi Q.T.,
"Of all the theories and stories that abound of the world's religions/belief systems. Of all the fantasy and incredible lengths of ignorance over the millennia that people have indulged in various cultures and their explanations of purpose/reasons of reality including the practices associated with these views, it is easy to dismiss the story of a God who came to Earth, paid for sins and went back to Heaven as just another theory of the roll of the dice theories that abound."
Agreed, I have always thought of the many many different beliefs as just another of the enemy's distractions. It is easy to see why there is such confusion, and those are just the ones outside of all the different sects of Christianity
You would think that many on here even, had to at least at some point in their search for Truth, been curious, looked into them or some of them, or even practiced?

"Those however whose epiphanies switch the light on in their understanding are changed.....something fundamentally shifts in how they see."
For sure! My whole worldview changed.

"At a level where the rubber hits the road one could say that shift translates in the way they learn to relate (behave). We can say this different ways yet meaning the same thing...from dysfunction to function....from sin to holiness....from disconnection to connection.....from rebellion to sanctification. All these speak of how one sees and behaves; the two are inseparable."
Are you talking about how Christians do or should interact with each other, the world, both? Or like an "action/reaction thing? Or how we as Christians should behave in general...even as we all seem to be in different places but hopefully, on the right road

If a Christian is not exhibiting any of the fruits of the Spirit then, my opinion is that they are (at least at the moment) a dysfunctional Christian and then...the opposite would be true of one who does produce fruit. ¯\_(ヅ)_/¯

 

[quietthinker]

Well, it appears that the gauntlet has been dropped. And how do you consider that man's transgression against God, can only be rectified by God Himself, propitiating Himself? That God's demand for obedience, can only be fulfilled by God obeying Himself? How man's hope and faith in the resurrection, is inspired by God, the immortal and eternal, raising Himself from the dead?
Please let me see you try and give glory to God through this outlandish and antithetical judicial process?

I have no interest in debating these matters with those whose intent is to mock and ridicule the primary subject of the scriptures. If you were looking for answers to understand this mystery we could perhaps engage but as it stands your position is taken from a worldly point of view which sees no merit in the gospel the Apostles preached and as Paul says of those who take this position, 'it appears foolishness to you'.

It is also clear to me you have decided what you want to believe and I now say to you what Jesus said to certain religious leaders of his day who thought they had the superior position, 'you do not know the scriptures or the power of God'

 

[quietthinker]

"At a level where the rubber hits the road one could say that shift translates in the way they learn to relate (behave). We can say this different ways yet meaning the same thing...from dysfunction to function....from sin to holiness....from disconnection to connection.....from rebellion to sanctification. All these speak of how one sees and behaves; the two are inseparable."
Are you talking about how Christians do or should interact with each other, the world, both? Or like an "action/reaction thing? Or how we as Christians should behave in general...even as we all seem to be in different places but hopefully, on the right road

Hello Nancy
I have included a portion of my post (in red). The highlighted 'learn' is intended as present continuous.

We relate to all men in a transparent open way without deviousness yet with discernment and wisdom whether they're Christians or not, encouraging the weak and rebuking those who are out of order all the while knowing that we too are not exempt from temptation and the 'infirmities of the flesh'

 

[DNB]

Also, it is a primary rule of hermeneutics that every verse of scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth; and that the plain meaning of any singular verse is never nullified by the context.

JBF, that was one of the most erroneous and subversive statements that I've heard in a long time. For example, there is probably not one verse within Scripture that stands on its own as an uncompromised and eternal, declaration of God's will. Even the Ten Commandments, in their entirety, have to be taken in context. Maybe the Shema is timeless tenet even within its isolation, but even that has to interpreted as you and I have didn't views on it. Not one verse of Scripture can be interpreted outside of its literary context, it's cultural and historical context, and its dispensational context.

 

[mjrhealth]

And you will die in your sins because you reject the Deity of Jesus, John 8:24.

Hes not rejecting anything but your theolology,

@DNB are you really JW????

 

[mjrhealth]

JBF, that was one of the most erroneous and subversive statements that I've heard in a long time. For example, there is probably not one verse within Scripture that stands on its own as an uncompromised and eternal, declaration of God's will. Even the Ten Commandments, in their entirety, have to be taken in context. Maybe the Shema is timeless tenet even within its isolation, but even that has to interpreted as you and I have didn't views on it. Not one verse of Scripture can be interpreted outside of its literary context, it's cultural and historical context, and its dispensational context.

Oh too much learning study and theology for me.

 

[DNB]

I have no interest in debating these matters with those whose intent is to mock and ridicule the primary subject of the scriptures. If you were looking for answers to understand this mystery we could perhaps engage but as it stands your position is taken from a worldly point of view which sees no merit in the gospel the Apostles preached and as Paul says of those who take this position, 'it appears foolishness to you'.

It is also clear to me you have decided what you want to believe and I now say to you what Jesus said to certain religious leaders of his day who thought they had the superior position, 'you do not know the scriptures or the power of God'

...the gauntlet has been dropped, ...and then retracted. If you won't state your case, then I will.
Nowhere in Scripture do we read that it required God to redeem man. As a fact, it fundamentally and emphatically, explicitly states the opposite.

Romans 5:12-19
5:12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13. for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
2:5. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

 

[DNB]

Oh too much learning study and theology for me.

But, undeniable truth. As far as I'm concerned, anyhow.

 

[mjrhealth]

But, undeniable truth. As far as I'm concerned, anyhow.

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

something to do with

Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[DNB]

Hes not rejecting anything but your theolology,

@DNB are you really JW????

No, not at all. I'm rather surprised that this accusation was made, considering that I explicitly stated that I don't accept any theology that deifies Jesus, or any creature. For who can possibly comprehend a god-man, or a three-person/god in one godhead, or modalism or polytheism, etc..?

 

[DNB]

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

something to do with

Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

I was referring to the principles of hermeneutics, ...are you addressing that also with the above verses? That one verse explains the other, and that without them both, there would be no guidance or restraint on interpreting each one apart from the other?
If so, I would agree (but more context is still required), as I have heard rather naive interpretations of Matthew 11:25 claiming basically to we don't need to be mature or advanced in our thinking when trying to relate to the Word of God. On the contrary, we need to be as wise as serpents, and removed childish and frivolous thoughts when we approach Scripture. Solid food not milk, when Paul was young he thought like a child, but not anymore (1 Corinthians 13:11, 1 Corinthians 14:20, 1 Corinthians 3:1-2, Hebrews 5:11-14).

 

[mjrhealth]

I was referring to the principles of hermeneutics, ...are you addressing that also with the above verses? That one verse explains the other, and that without them both, there would be no guidance or restraint on interpreting each one apart from the other?
If so, I would agree (but more context is still required), as I have heard rather naive interpretations of Matthew 11:25 claiming basically to we don't need to be mature or advanced in our thinking when trying to relate to the Word of God. On the contrary, we need to be as wise as serpents, and removed childish and frivolous thoughts when we approach Scripture. Solid food not milk, when Paul was young he thought like a child, but not anymore (1 Corinthians 13:11, 1 Corinthians 14:20, 1 Corinthians 3:1-2, Hebrews 5:11-14).

Not into study, seeing far too many people who can quote scripture and big words and have no clue who God is or even Christ, in fact they tend to leave even the Holy Spirit out of it all, I read and the bible and there fore I am, i suppose you could put it, Doesnt impress God, men maybe but not those who follow after Christ alone.

 

[quietthinker]

...the gauntlet has been dropped, ...and then retracted. If you won't state your case, then I will.
Nowhere in Scripture do we read that it required God to redeem man. As a fact, it fundamentally and emphatically, explicitly states the opposite.

Romans 5:12-19
5:12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13. for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
2:5. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

The whole economy of the Hebrews was based on and around the sacrificial system the which was a type whose reality (antitype) the Prophets testified and Jesus validated.

Your statement of 'Nowhere in Scripture do we read that it required God to redeem man. As a fact, it fundamentally and emphatically, explicitly states the opposite.' is in error.

The Creator volunteered 'as a lamb to the slaughter'. Your choice of word 'required' cleverly shifts the focus for the purpose of undermining the scriptural narrative.

 

[Behold]

Except that faith, when it is living, produces works.

Yes.
But it can't save you.
So, the born again who are no longer involved closely with God, are still born again.
Its being BORN AGAIN, that Jesus said, is what is required....
This is because by being born again, you are now BORN INTO God's family.
Once there, your particular lifestyle reflects the grade of your discipleship.
Some believers are very good Christians.
Some believers are horrible people.
Both types are born again.

 

[DNB]

Not into study, seeing far too many people who can quote scripture and big words and have no clue who God is or even Christ, in fact they tend to leave even the Holy Spirit out of it all, I read and the bible and there fore I am, i suppose you could put it, Doesnt impress God, men maybe but not those who follow after Christ alone.

I would think that the majority of NT authors were very well versed in the Tanakh. They quoted it rather extensively, and expounded on it quite profoundly. I think that God's Word is extremely profound, mysterious (hidden, not erudite or esoteric), and thus, edifying. We only learn about Jesus and the Holy Spirit through Scriptures. Therefore, continuous reading of it is the only way to know God's will, and to understand it unto salvation and that of others.

Personally, the gift and workings of the Holy Spirit is quite a mystery to me. I'm aware of the promise of its reception to all believers, but have yet to see its power in anyone who claims to have it (I don't believe that I am endowed with it on any sort of significant level). To me, it requires humility and faith to receive it, and that there is a direct correlation to these two dispositions as to when and how often one has its availability.

 

[DNB]

The whole economy of the Hebrews was based on and around the sacrificial system the which was a type whose reality (antitype) the Prophets testified and Jesus validated.

Your statement of 'Nowhere in Scripture do we read that it required God to redeem man. As a fact, it fundamentally and emphatically, explicitly states the opposite.' is in error.

The Creator volunteered 'as a lamb to the slaughter'. Your choice of word 'required' cleverly shifts the focus for the purpose of undermining the scriptural narrative.

You're very shrewd at taking verses out of context, and/or eisegeting them. I bolded where in Romans and Timothy the correlation was drawn between the guilty party, and the mediator or saviour. You will never be able, through Scripture, do the same to support your position. Your last post to me was extremely idle, frivolous and eisegetical.
You made the challenge about explaining the mystery, and you have yet to show or explain your insights into your god-man and triune god theories.