Hebrews 10:26-31

[justbyfaith]

Most assuredly, we are no longer bound by the letter of the law but are obedient to the spirit of it as believers (Romans 7:6).

No no no! I will not even give you an inch. Ministry of death and condemnation as quoted by the Apostle Paul. That is the spirit of the Law and the Jewish religion. You do not want the Law or the spirit of the Law in Christianity. The Mosaic Law was cruel and misogyny. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let His blood be on us and our children! It does not matter if it is polygamy, selling your daughter as a sex slave, or killing disobedient children or cutting baby penises, or killing all that breaths and don't forget the little ones....all Mosaic Laws and none of that way of thinking or spirit of morality or character belongs in Christianity...that is why the Apostle Paul fought against it so hard.

I think that you are not reading the scriptures that I am referencing to substantiate my pov.

See Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5.

And Matthew 5:17-20.

Or, how about Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20, and Psalms 19:7 (kjv)?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Numbers 15:29-31
29One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

30“ ‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’ ”

So true. Yet here we are, "Because his compassions fail not, it is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed: Great is Thy Faithfulness".

"they" translated, is, "we" more often than not in Scriptures like Numbers 15:29-31.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think that you are not reading the scriptures that I am referencing to substantiate my pov.

See Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5.

And Matthew 5:17-20.

Or, how about Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20, and Psalms 19:7 (kjv)?

I am hoping that you know by now that I know the scriptures. I can debate both sides...but I am smart enough to know that if i can do that...there is a truth that explains them both. You see it here on the forum so many times...people thing that he who has the most scriptures wins. That is not generally true. What actually happens is both sides walk away confidently not understanding the truth.

Paul did show due respect to the Jewish religion and the Hebrew scriptures and rightly so. And Judaism has it connections to Christianity. There are parts of his writings that he reflects on the Jews, it is not like he hated the Jews...but the events show that they fought Paul on several fronts. ergo the first Christian council in Jerusalem.

As far as the Jewish people and their history, they make for a good case study on what not to do or how to get damned. When you get down to it how many times did Paul say he was not of the Law. And he warned people that if they looked to the Law as guide to righteousness that they were severed from Christ and had fallen from grace. Even Christ warned of such a thing.

And then there is the real world reality of it all....the early gentiles did not know much about the Law, only the few commandments reiterated in the New Testament...if that. They did not even have a Bible then and those that preached Christianity did not abandon Christ's teaching to preach Judaism. Judaism as a religion and history is lengthy and involved and they were focusing on Christianity....the urgency was to save souls, there is nothing in the Old Testament that can save a soul. The first Bibles were bound together by order of Constantine and did not include the Old Testament. Today it is more of a cliche for Christian to affirm the Law because they do not know the Law, and could not practice it, even if they wanted to. Jewish scholars are still debating the meaning of the 613 Laws of Moses and why God made them.

Called the Mosaic Law...even Christ sat the Law on it ear when He told the Jews that Moses permitted them to divorce their wives....so how many other Laws were made by man. Christ loved the Jews and I love the Jews, I would die with a smile on my face defending Israel. But I know a lot about the Jewish religion, besides theology degrees I studied at Jewish Studies at American University and courses out of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, and although I believe it is important to know the Hebrew Bible, Christ nor Paul intended for Judaism to be part of the Christianity as a religion.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

If you are still in the scope of time God has allowed for you to repent of your deliberate sin/ unbelief, if he has granted you any, God will receive you.

Just understand, if you make a decision to walk away from faith in Christ and return to deliberately sinning you have entered into unbelief. Not unbelief as in 'I don't know for sure it's all true', but unbelief as in 'I know it's all true, but I don't care'. The dangerous part being people who do this seem to want to cling to the hope they're saved anyway. And the abuse of OSAS in the pulpits of the church is a big reason why.

Judged by your picture you're still, very, young. But I am convinced despite, that you are at least more honest than certain o so very educated churchman around.

 

[justbyfaith]

Judged by your picture you're still, very, young. But I am convinced despite, that you are at least more honest than certain o so very educated churchman around.

His picture is a picture of Ferris Bueller in the movie "Ferris Bueller's day off"...very likely not a picture of himself.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am hoping that you know by now that I know the scriptures.

You may think you know the scriptures; but this does not exempt you from reading references that substantiate a pov. I think that you have been ignoring my references; they also have a bearing on the subject at hand and if you are going to ignore them then I think you are exalting your knowledge of the scriptures above my own: you are not considering what I have to say on the subject using the Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think that you are not reading the scriptures that I am referencing to substantiate my pov.

See Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5.

And Matthew 5:17-20.

Or, how about Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20, and Psalms 19:7 (kjv)?

Heb 8:8, For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9, Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Rom 8:7, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1Jo 5:3, For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6, And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rom 13:8, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9, For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10, Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Rom 5:5, And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


Mat 5:17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Psa 19:7, The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

 

[Grailhunter]

You may think you know the scriptures; but this does not exempt you from reading references that substantiate a pov. I think that you have been ignoring my references; they also have a bearing on the subject at hand and if you are going to ignore them then I think you are exalting your knowledge of the scriptures above my own: you are not considering what I have to say on the subject using the Bible.

And again it is all throwing opposing scriptures and going away, not understanding because of not taking reality into consideration.

 

[justbyfaith]

And again it is all throwing opposing scriptures and going away, not understanding because of not taking reality into consideration.

Feel free to quote the opposing scriptures as that is what is conducive to a good conversation about holy scripture.

I would suggest that you also try to explain the reconciliation between the scriptures that seem to oppose each other; because if you don't you might give the ungodly impression that the scripture contradicts itself.

There is always a reconciliation between scriptures that seem to contradict one another; and the reconciliation always produces sound doctrine that is better insight than either one of them would have produced alone.

 

[Grailhunter]

Feel free to quote the opposing scriptures as that is what is conducive to a good conversation about holy scripture.
I am not going to do that as a point because it is stupid and proves nothing. The only thing that accomplishes is teaching people to explain scriptures away....I like my scriptures but I will explain your scriptures away, or I think I win because I have more scriptures.

I would suggest that you also try to explain the reconciliation between the scriptures that seem to oppose each other; because if you don't you might give the ungodly impression that the scripture contradicts itself.

The stern warning in Hebrews is presented as advanced knowledge...the meat of Christian knowledge. I have read a dozen commentaries and they can not figure them out. Even Oxford and Cambridge do not know what to do with these stern warnings and Melchizedek for that matter. You can figure it out but it will take some time and along the way you will learn so much.

There is always a reconciliation between scriptures that seem to contradict one another; and the reconciliation always produces sound doctrine that is better insight than either one of them would have produced alone.

Mostly agree...I am not going to say always....I can produce 250 contradictions you do not want that. ...and most of those are simple contradictions, which they were all college topics. But usually theological contradictions are only apparent and are seemingly contradiction because you do not know the truth that explains them both.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am not going to do that as a point because it is stupid and proves nothing.

To bring to the forefront the scriptures that you think oppose my pov can only contribute to our conversation.

Unless there really are no scriptures that truly contradict my pov.

And that is why I want you to bring your scriptures to the forefront. So that I can show how they do not really contradict what I have been saying via the scriptures that I have brought up.

But it seems to me that you just want to leave a doubt-producing statement that there are scriptures that contradict the premise that I am setting forth using the scriptures that I have been presenting; without actually producing your scriptures to prove your point.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

It means, as long as you continue in your willful sin.


First, let's understand that if you remain unrepentant in your willful sin God will eventually turn you over to your rejection of Christ. But until then I believe, based on the example of the Corinthians and the Galatians, that God leaves the door open for a while for the willful sinner to come to his senses and stop sinning. But after that he doesn't allow the willful sinner to come back.

Some interesting Hog Wash you have concocted there ! Unfortunately, None of it Biblical. I hope Newbies will be like the Bereans and actually READ Romans and Galatians and see the Truth Of The Gospel ....ask for God to open your eyes so that you UNDERSTAND His WORD .....many in here like Mr.Bueller have more than likely “ Read” it , But it did not “Take” for some reason....he needs to be taught to “ rightly Divide”....he’s too “ stiff Necked”to turn to a good teacher.....like me....hahahahaha ..THAT will be the day! Newbies should check out “Andrew Farley”..... get off on the right foot !

 

[Grailhunter]

I am not going to do that as a point because it is stupid and proves nothing.
Unless there really are no scriptures that truly contradict my pov.
And that is why I want you to bring your scriptures to the forefront. So that I can show how they do not really contradict what I have been saying via the scriptures that I have brought up.
But it seems to me that you just want to leave a doubt-producing statement that there are scriptures that contradict the premise that I am setting forth using the scriptures that I have been presenting; without actually producing your scriptures to prove your point.
To bring to the forefront the scriptures that you think oppose my pov can only contribute to our conversation.
Unless there really are no scriptures that truly contradict my pov.

@justbyfaith
This is an interesting point and one that I am going to share with you...not that you do not do it already because I think you are good person. You cannot tempt me for the same reason that Satan cannot tempt me.
I am 63 years old and have this thing about doing the right thing for so long that it is a knee jerk reaction now. And along the way it has taught me some lessons and one of them is that if you do not sin much...bad things do not happen to you because God designated sins mostly to keep us from hurting ourselves and others.

The other reason is, why would you believe me? People have a tendency not to appreciate things like that, that are given to them. If you research and earn it, you are more likely to believe it, have confidence in it, and it would mean more to you. Then also why would I deny you all the things you are going to learn along the way. And I have already outlined all the paths that will lead you to that treasure.

And doubt producing!!...you so funny!!...I tell you there is an answer to conflicting scriptures and you say I am casting doubt? lol Give it a try! Wouldn't you like solving something that some of the greatest minds in Christianity cannot....as far as a Christian goes it life changing. And the skills you are going to learn will make you a master at debate. Good luck!!

 

[Tong2020]

If you are still in the scope of time God has allowed for you to repent of your deliberate sin/ unbelief, if he has granted you any, God will receive you.

Just understand, if you make a decision to walk away from faith in Christ and return to deliberately sinning you have entered into unbelief. Not unbelief as in 'I don't know for sure it's all true', but unbelief as in 'I know it's all true, but I don't care'. The dangerous part being people who do this seem to want to cling to the hope they're saved anyway. And the abuse of OSAS in the pulpits of the church is a big reason why.

Did not get a clear answer this time. But thanks.

<<<Just understand, if you make a decision to walk away from faith in Christ and return to deliberately sinning you have entered into unbelief.>>>

Make a decision to walk away from faith in Christ? I’ve given my heart to Jesus because. He is everything to me. Losing Him is losing everything. I believe I won’t and I can’t walk away from Him. I see myself to be out of my mind, even to think of that for a second. So, such idea does not have a place in my heart and in my mind.

I get the impression that somehow you believe it is a possibility and it could happen even to you. I will pray for you and you should pray as well, that God keep you and not allow that from happening. And I strongly believe God will hear this prayer in the name of His Son Jesus Christ.

Let’s find and have comfort and assurance in God, to Him who is able to keep us from stumbling, and able to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

God loves us and He is Love. And Love never fails.

Tong
R1465

 

[Tong2020]

Can a true believer go back to unbelief? Every believer has to settle that for themselves. The important thing is if the 'believer' who finds himself living in the deliberate sin of the unbeliever, whether they never really believed or no longer believe (doesn't matter), they need to repent so they can be saved when Jesus comes back. Because they will not be saved if they remain in the condition they are in.

I see nothing wrong with what you say there as what is important to you. But my question is not what is important to you. I was asking about what YOU believe and think, based on your reading of scriptures:

1) Willfully and deliberately sinning, could it happen to one who is genuinely born of God?

2) Can one who is genuinely born of God reject Christ?

Tong
R1466

 

[Ferris Bueller]

...I believe, based on the example of the Corinthians and the Galatians, that God leaves the door open for a while for the willful sinner to come to his senses and stop sinning. But after that he doesn't allow the willful sinner to come back.

Newbies should check out “Andrew Farley”..... get off on the right foot !

I got a better idea. Newbies should read 1 Corinthians 15 and Galatians 4 and Hebrews 6:4-6 with what I said in mind. Check what I said out with the Bible., not with Andrew Farley, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Make a decision to walk away from faith in Christ? I’ve given my heart to Jesus because. He is everything to me. Losing Him is losing everything. I believe I won’t and I can’t walk away from Him.

Me too. That's why I don't deliberately sin. I sin under duress. But let's not forget Paul's warning to continue in his kindness and not be high minded, for God will not spare us either if we slip into unbelief.

 

[justbyfaith]

Some interesting Hog Wash you have concocted there ! Unfortunately, None of it Biblical.

Of course we are supposed to just take your word for it that none of it is biblical.

No.

Show forth with scripture why @Ferris Bueller's contentions are not biblical if you want us to believe you.

And doubt producing!!...you so funny!!...I tell you there is an answer to conflicting scriptures and you say I am casting doubt? lol Give it a try! Wouldn't you like solving something that some of the greatest minds in Christianity cannot....as far as a Christian goes it life changing. And the skills you are going to learn will make you a master at debate. Good luck!!

So, @Grailhunter, show forth the scriptures that oppose what I have been saying with scripture so that we can both go about the process of solving things that have not yet been solved by Christian minds.

 

[Tong2020]

That's were I see ignorantly committed sins, in those who have not been reborn. They have no options, no choice, they are sinners. Without sin being on the radar really.

Much love!

Yes, Paul was not born again yet then, but he is a believer in God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. I know you know who he was and what he had done, at least according to what could be learned in scriptures about him. As he said, he was ignorant about who Jesus Christ was then, that he has done all those things. That implies that if he was not ignorant, he would have not done those things. When he was no longer ignorant of the truth, what he had done then becomes clear to him, that all were actually sinful, and that he sinned. He did not consider himself excused because of his ignorance, but acknowledged that he had sinned and is a sinner, even saying he is chief among all sinners.

The point is that, there are such sins that are not willful sins.

Seems to me that you are saying that after one had been converted, that somehow such ignorant, unintentional sins exist no longer and could not happen to a convert. I don’t think that is the case.

Tong
R1467

 

[Ferris Bueller]

1) Willfully and deliberately sinning, could it happen to one who is genuinely born of God?

2) Can one who is genuinely born of God reject Christ?

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Romans 11:17-22

You can argue all day long about what not being spared and being cut off actually means if you want, but one thing that is clear he's warning people who stand by faith to continue in his kindness. The Galatians and the Corinthians both fell away from the gospel they heard and believed and were saved by. Apparently, the Hebrew church was contemplating doing the same.