Hell...my visions...[ part 3, 2, 1 ]

[jiggyfly]

The Most High speaks to his people all throughout time with dreams and visions even as in Acts 2, at the commencement of the Kingdom of Heaven upon the earth, ("Behold, I come as a thief" says Messiah). Likewise, with various other Scripture passages understood in conjunction with what Peter spoke in Acts 2 at Shavout, the only time when it really counts that one "calls upon the name of the Lord" is when he says it counts; not when we decide for ourselves, such as an altar call or sinners prayer. We do not get to decide the date and time of our salvation such as has been taught more recently by taking that passage out of its context and using it along with "creepy organ music" to bring sinners to the altar, (which is in fact the pinnacle of the preacher himself because one puts himself or herself at his feet and therefore his doctrines). That time of initial conversion is merely an entrance into a walk towards that great day when one will become a son, a joint inheritor of the promise, receiving the promise for which we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise when we first believed.

Acts 2:13-21 KJV
13. Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

To the mockers here: If none of these things above have occurred to you, or similar things in your own dreams and-or visions, then perhaps you still have not "called upon the name of the Lord" in the all important time when it really counts, (your soul will be required). Perhaps also in that day you will indeed learn to fear.

I have learned to love because He loves, as far as dreams and visions go, I know God communicates in such fashions, but many interpret them through religious paradigm.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

To the mockers here: If none of these things above have occurred to you, or similar things in your own dreams and-or visions, then perhaps you still have not "called upon the name of the Lord" in the all important time when it really counts, (your soul will be required). Perhaps also in that day you will indeed learn to fear.

Oh, I fear, but I don't fear you or your self-indulgent words. Your will turn to when the lord rebukes you for the lies you've spoken.

 

[Purity]

The Most High speaks to his people all throughout time with dreams and visions even as in Acts 2, at the commencement of the Kingdom of Heaven upon the earth, ("Behold, I come as a thief" says Messiah). Likewise, with various other Scripture passages understood in conjunction with what Peter spoke in Acts 2 at Shavout, the only time when it really counts that one "calls upon the name of the Lord" is when he says it counts; not when we decide for ourselves, such as an altar call or sinners prayer. We do not get to decide the date and time of our salvation such as has been taught more recently by taking that passage out of its context and using it along with "creepy organ music" to bring sinners to the altar, (which is in fact the pinnacle of the preacher himself because one puts himself or herself at his feet and therefore his doctrines). That time of initial conversion is merely an entrance into a walk towards that great day when one will become a son, a joint inheritor of the promise, receiving the promise for which we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise when we first believed.

Acts 2:13-21 KJV
13. Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

To the mockers here: If none of these things above have occurred to you, or similar things in your own dreams and-or visions, then perhaps you still have not "called upon the name of the Lord" in the all important time when it really counts, (your soul will be required). Perhaps also in that day you will indeed learn to fear.

Daq,

The former and latter rain prophecy being applied today ???

I am intrigue to see now you can substantiate the Joel prophecy being fulfilled as it was with the former rains in Acts 2.

Certainly the Spirit would not give the type of visions being purported here...but many shall say "I have seen a vision" AND "spoken in my Name".

The only Fire they will see is the Consuming one when His Son returns to admonish those who not only disobeyed the Gospel but made it their own.

Purity

 

[daq]

Oh, I fear, but I don't fear you or your self-indulgent words. Your will turn to when the lord rebukes you for the lies you've spoken.

If there has been a lie then show it according to the Scripture. If you have not noticed I generally post more Scripture than my own words in comparison to how you almost never quote any Scripture at all when you cast your accusations. As for my own rebuking that has indeed happened and began severely when my daughter passed away. You have no clue what things you speak of. When your time comes all the holy ones will know whether you did indeed overcome or whether you are a twice dead autumn tree, gone past the appointed time, bearing no fruit.

Jude 1:10-16 KJV
10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Do you not see that when we gather in the Word it is a feast? Please try not to be such a black spot.

Daq,

The former and latter rain prophecy being applied today ???

I am intrigue to see now you can substantiate the Joel prophecy being fulfilled as it was with the former rains in Acts 2.

Certainly the Spirit would not give the type of visions being purported here...but many shall say "I have seen a vision" AND "spoken in my Name".

The only Fire they will see is the Consuming one when His Son returns to admonish those who not only disobeyed the Gospel but made it their own.

Purity

Though I cannot agree with all of the theology of "Brothertom" does that give me the right to ridicule and mock what God has given him thus far in his walk? We are all in different stages of our walk in Messiah. I know you did not suggest such a thing but I wanted to make that clear because all visions, dreams, or dream-visions, or whatever one wants to call them, must comply with the Scripture. Doctrine cannot be formed by visions and dreams but rather it must be the other way around because we are clearly warned that all servants shall be tested before being put in charge of an holy house. But regarding your question the two following passages are not the same event:

Joel 2:31-32 KJV
31. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Joel 3:9-16 KJV
9. Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
12. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

The moon being "turned into blood" (as in Acts 2 and also Revelation 6:12) is not the same as the moon being "darkened" or "not giving her light" (as also in Matthew 24:29). The moon is "at the feet" of the woman in Revelation 12 as she gives birth and therefore "turns into blood". The moon being turned into blood therefore signifies birth, (with every "son" born into the kingdom commencing with Messiah Yeshua, the firstborn from the dead, whom we follow). However, in the great day of Hashem all of the heavens shall be darkened, or blackened, including the sun, the stars, and the moon, (see also Jeremiah 4:23-28, Ezekiel 32:1-7 with Pharaoh and all his "flesh").

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Angelina.

Sorry Rex...I had to remove it because it seemed like something that would not benefit this forum in any way. :huh:


I was pointing out that this quote seemed more of a JW belief. They also believe that people do not get thrown into hell but rather are not revived from the grave type thing...

Bless ya!

While Apocalypticist is right in his points, I do believe that you are right about this comment, as well. However, "soul sleep," as many use the term and which might apply to Luther, was the interim between death and the resurrection. What happens to a person when he dies? IF he continues to exist at some other level, where does he go? DOES he exist at some other level?

However, I have studied the words and the verses and quite frankly, I cannot abide by the belief that we "go to Heaven" when we die. I can't find a SINGLE verse that supports that theory! There are some that SOUND like they do, but if you study them out, particularly in context, they don't! Based on my studies, I tend to believe that without a body that can breathe, a person ceases to exist...UNTIL the resurrection of our bodies and their transformation into resurrection bodies like to the body of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah, the Son of God. If you want to call that "soul sleep," then fine, call it that. But, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" does NOT necessarily mean a continuance of time! It could simply mean that one moment we are closing our eyes in death, and the next moment TO US we are opening our eyes in the resurrection/ascension/meeting-in-the-air awareness with our Lord!

I don't follow a particular person's or group's theology. Never have and probably never will. I've always been taught (first, by my father in the flesh, a "fundamental, independent, Fellowship Baptist" minister, and then by the disciples' examples when I studied THAT out, as the Bereans did) that I need to research it out for myself. We have the mind of Christ, and we have the teaching of the Holy Spirit. That's enough for some people, but I tend to believe that God also gave us ministers and thinkers before us to help us when we are "stuck" in some point of our development. Just as we learn from teachers in school in various subjects, we can learn from teachers in the Word. HOWEVER, the majority of what we learn should be from the things we study on our own, and we should ALWAYS take what another human being says "with a grain of salt." "Let God be true and EVERY man a liar!"

Teachers are there to instruct us in the correct, step-by-step procedures and point out our mistakes if we forget a step or misunderstand a step: A math teacher, for instance, might teach a student why it is wrong to add the denominators together when adding fractions. They are also there to expose us to information that is new to us. THIS, I believe, is their PRIMARY function! Whether we ever use such information in the future is up to us and ultimately to God, but at least we now know that such information exists and is available. For instance, if a person is good with math and measurements and he loves to build things, he might never know his full potential until he knows that the occupation of "architect" is available to him! Or, if he's better with the math and loves to draw, the occupation of "drafter" might be more to his liking! "You don't know that you don't know what you don't know!" Many people are satisfied with "ignorance is bliss," but most have simply never been exposed to all the information that is available, and therefore, they might miss the very thing in which they would excel!

Forgive me for a little digression, but when I see the big eyes of little children in undeveloped countries, my heart breaks, knowing that many of them will miss their full potential because they are too busy worrying about from where and when their next meal might come! As an ad used to say, "The mind is a terrible thing to waste!"

My word studies of "soul" and "spirit" have led me to believe that they are NOT both (if either of them) about the "immaterial part" of a person. To the contrary, I believe that the "soul" is a combination of "body" and "spirit." Fundamentally, both words - as they are used in their first mentions - have to do with a "body that can breathe" and the "breath" itself, respectively. And, both animals and people have both "soul" and "spirit."

But, to "hedge my bet," I'm willing to admit that the "spirit" MAY be talking about the "immaterial part" of a person instead of just the "breath." However, that means that the "soul" is the combination of the "immaterial part" called the "spirit" and the "material part" called the "body." As such, when a person dies, the "spirit" leaves the "body," and the "soul" CEASES TO EXIST (for a time)! Only at the resurrection will the "spirit" be put back into a new "body" and become a living "soul," again. However, because this happens to BOTH the just and the unjust, BOTH will have "souls" once again! And, since neither one will have their "spirits" separated from their "bodies" again, their "souls" are "immortal" from that point on! The just (or rather, the justified) will live in God's grace for eternity, and the unjust will "live" under God's judgment, POSSIBLY for eternity. (I'm still a little unsure on this last point. IS there "no end to the suffering," or can the sentence be fulfilled and satisfied at some point in the future? I've heard it both ways, although I'm prone to believe the former.)

The bottom line is this: The state a person is in after death is rightly called "sh'owl" (or "sheol") in Hebrew or "hadees" (or "Hades") in Greek: Both mean "the unseen." WE DON'T KNOW! The Scriptures are sketchy on the subject, and God says that it's none of our business, except to "love God and keep His commandments." Michah put it this way:

Micah 6:7-8
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but (1) to do justly, and (2) to love mercy, and (3) to walk humbly with thy God?
KJV

I like to think this means "toward yourself, do justly to others; toward others, love to show them mercy; toward God, walk humbly, obeying Him and honoring Him as both the God He is and the Father He is. As your God and Creator, He DESERVES your honor. As your Father, He DESERVES your love and obedience.

 

[Trumpeter]

I wouldn't call that a Jehovah's Witness belief. It's something that supporters support by substantial appeals to scripture. It's unfair to tarnish those believers with a JW reference. Many from the mainline denominations and even some of the more conservative groups have come along in recent years to adopt the annihilationist perspective.

Greetings Apocalypticist,

Thanks for sticking up for believers.
I belong to no church named of men. I belong to My Lord Jesus Christ, and together with all those who are His, is the Church in which I dwell.
The Word is what it says and every denomination has put it's own interpretation on it.
Does any one denomination have it all right? No.
Do you see multiple denominational beliefs in The Letters?
Yes, but then, which denomination has everything correct?
These Letters were given to someone with no "church" background by The Lord for just this reason, so that what was given would not be coloured by denominational "baggage".

 

[Purity]

Joel 2:31-32 KJV
31. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Lets consider this section first shall we?

In a short succinct statement when do you foresee this "great and the terrible day of the Lord" take place, or do you believe it is past?

Purity

The moon being "turned into blood" (as in Acts 2 and also Revelation 6:12) is not the same as the moon being "darkened" or "not giving her light" (as also in Matthew 24:29). The moon is "at the feet" of the woman in Revelation 12 as she gives birth and therefore "turns into blood". The moon being turned into blood therefore signifies birth, (with every "son" born into the kingdom commencing with Messiah Yeshua, the firstborn from the dead, whom we follow). However, in the great day of Hashem all of the heavens shall be darkened, or blackened, including the sun, the stars, and the moon, (see also Jeremiah 4:23-28, Ezekiel 32:1-7 with Pharaoh and all his "flesh").

Daq, I would ask that you stand back from this post for a moment and read your work objectively. Ask yourself the following:

1. Have I inferred a point without providing context and meaning to the passages quoted?
2. If a "babe" were reading this could they make sense of your argument and Scripture's quoted and their relevance to each other?
3. Your use of the title HaShem or "the Name" may also confuse people reading your post. I appreciate its use but are there alternatives?

I am sure you would appreciate the Apostles always considered the simple hearted, Paul especially was apt at asking simple questions and explaining the answer in details - he learned this from his Lord.

I should really provide you with some substance to work with else it simply appears like I am criticising you for little reason.

Take your reference in Rev 6:12

Symbolically what was the great earthquake referring too? There is an element of surprise in the verse is there not? Do you believe the earthquake is natural phenomena or political upheaval? We know the earth is representative of people as per Gen 6:11; Deut 32:1; Isa 1:2; Isa 65:17-18 - was this speaking to a revolution at some time in our history? If not, what natural earthquake? and its significance in the Kingdom of God being established on earth? The truth is, there are a number of political earthquakes spoken of in Scripture and each had an impact on the development of Gods Kingdom on earth. We wont go into these right now, but needless to say history has recorded them in great detail.

Now what of the Sun becoming black? As sackcloth of hair? And moon becoming as blood?

Each of these are highly symbolic events, but as to their meaning, you inferred a knowledge without explaining their detail. I appreciate your response was not aimed at expounding Rev 6:12, but you must appreciate your approach was not proving any logical reasoning to your statement/point.

Purity

 

[daq]

Lets consider this section first shall we?

In a short succinct statement when do you foresee this "great and the terrible day of the Lord" take place, or do you believe it is past?

Purity

Note that the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE that great and terrible day of the Lord. As for the solar portion Amos 8:9-10, when combined with the accounts of the crucifixion, it is revealed that the sun was already darkened at midday, from the sixth hour until the ninth hour, (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Yeshua. Thus some of these events, (if not the lunar signs also) which Peter speaks of in Acts 2 had already physically occurred some 51 to 52 days before Shavout-Pentecost at the Passover death of Messiah. Peter is apparently telling them that what they had all witnessed during the crucifixion was the fulfillment of certain prophecies and that likewise the Holy Spirit, because of those things, had now been poured out upon those that were prophesying and speaking in the tongues of the other nations gathered at that time for Shavout. In my view everything necessary was fulfilled by Messiah at the Cross of Golgotha. What follows is all supernal as is the Kingdom of God, (which is within us). Yeshua paid for his interpretation of Torah, Prophets, Writings, and paid for his Testimony, (which is the Spirit of Prophecy) with his blood. Since he alone did not break the Law then he alone has the right to interpret all of it, (although he already was the Word the crucifixion made it "legal" because the enemy was finally judged for killing an innocent man). As for the timing of the great and terrible day it occurs to each in his or her appointed times, and no man knows the day or the hour, only the Father knows. Notice the Luke 19 parable of the "pounds" concerns exactly this topic; the "nobleman" goes away to receive a kingdom and to RETURN. What then happens? He calls his servants before him, (this is the "Bema Seat" of Messiah) to settle accounts with them and reward them accordingly. Do they all come to stand before the Master at the same time? No they do not, rather, it is PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL just as is the entire Gospel of Yeshua:

Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

For some this great day is yet future but for others the Bema Seat has occurred. Although it is to each in his or her own appointed times it is to God all the same day, the Day of Messiah, for he is now outside of our time domain constraints of the fleshly paradigm which has been placed upon man because of sin. For the same reason the Scripture states that we as believers "have come to mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of messengers, to the general assembly and congregation of the firstborn which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Yeshua the new Mediator of the Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel."

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Do you know the terror of the Lord? You will if indeed you will be born of both the water and the Spirit.
Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Yeshua: and he saw it, and was glad . . .

 

[Purity]

For some this great day is yet future but for others the Bema Seat has occurred. Although it is to each in his or her own appointed times it is to God all the same day, the Day of Messiah, for he is now outside of our time domain constraints of the fleshly paradigm which has been placed upon man because of sin. For the same reason the Scripture states that we as believers "have come to mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of messengers, to the general assembly and congregation of the firstborn which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Yeshua the new Mediator of the Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel."

Greetings Daq,

Am I to interpret your red text to imply the judgement of saints is both past and future?
The crucifixion of Yahweh' Yeshua and His atoning work in him was retrospective as well as prospective; that it reaches back as well as forward. Paul taught that the Lord's death embraced "the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant" as well as those that even then were future (Heb. 9:15).

Your inference the Bema Seat has already occurred (for some) is not a Scriptural one, as the Judgement must first take place with the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). But the collective elect are yet to be raised for judgement. The first work of Christ will be to resurrect the responsible dead and this will precede those responsible living as per 1 Thess. 4:14-17.

If I am correct with your interpretation you imply the judgement (Bema or mercy seat) has already taken place for some?

This cannot be.

1 Thess. 4:14-17. "shall not prevent them which are asleep"

"prevent" is the Greek word phthano - to come or do before, get first in doing or being anything, be before with. Hence the living at that time "will by no means precede those who fell asleep". Paul here is comforting the believers at Thessalonica with the knowledge that those believers who had died (total cessation of life) would be the first to know that the Lord was in the earth, through their resurrection to life. Of course, should one believe in spirits in Heaven and the ridiculous notions these entail, then this passage of the Scripture is made of none affect. For why would believers be concerned for the dead if they be immortal in Heaven?

Your use of Heb 12:24 to suggest the Bema is past and future needs further explaining.

Purity

 

[daq]

Greetings Daq,

Am I to interpret your red text to imply the judgement of saints is both past and future?
The crucifixion of Yahweh' Yeshua and His atoning work in him was retrospective as well as prospective; that it reaches back as well as forward. Paul taught that the Lord's death embraced "the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant" as well as those that even then were future (Heb. 9:15).

Your inference the Bema Seat has already occurred (for some) is not a Scriptural one, as the Judgement must first take place with the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). But the collective elect are yet to be raised for judgement. The first work of Christ will be to resurrect the responsible dead and this will precede those responsible living as per 1 Thess. 4:14-17.

If I am correct with your interpretation you imply the judgement (Bema or mercy seat) has already taken place for some?

This cannot be.

1 Thess. 4:14-17. "shall not prevent them which are asleep"

"prevent" is the Greek word phthano - to come or do before, get first in doing or being anything, be before with. Hence the living at that time "will by no means precede those who fell asleep". Paul here is comforting the believers at Thessalonica with the knowledge that those believers who had died (total cessation of life) would be the first to know that the Lord was in the earth, through their resurrection to life. Of course, should one believe in spirits in Heaven and the ridiculous notions these entail, then this passage of the Scripture is made of none affect. For why would believers be concerned for the dead if they be immortal in Heaven?

Your use of Heb 12:24 to suggest the Bema is past and future needs further explaining.

Purity

To give an in depth answer would take this thread far off topic which was why I attempted to nudge it back with my final comments previously above, (concerning the terror of the Lord). Please let it suffice to say here that if one does not entirely comprehend and believe the clear emphatic statements of Yeshua, (which I take as commandments) then the same will likewise not entirely understand the writings of Paul; for Paul believes all of the Testimony of Yeshua and does not deviate one jot or tittle from the Testimony of the Master. Therefore it is not more testimony of Paul which is necessary in such cases but rather more Testimony of Yeshua:

Did they eventually see the Son of man ascend back up to where he was before? Luke 24:51

John 6:62-64 KJV
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

1) The flesh profits nothing; the words of Messiah are SPIRIT and LIFE.
2) If one does not believe this he risks betrayal of the Master which is no different than Judas.

John 11:23-26 KJV
23. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1) We were DEAD (John 5:25 - Ephesians 2:1).
2) While we were DEAD we heard his voice and LIVED.
3) Now that we LIVE we must continue to walk INTO Yeshua.
4) Whosoever LIVES and believes INTO Yeshua shall NEVER DIE.

Simon Bar-Yonah, Yacobos-James, Mariam Magdalene, Shaul-Paulos, all true apostles, and all true disciples; we believe these things faithfully and eventually come to know them as having been verified. Therefore, in the place where we abide, the physical death of the body is not even recognized according to the commandment of Yeshua the Word. If one does not believe these things then neither will the same understand the writings of Paul or the other New Covenant writers, and death is not yet defeated in that one, but reigns over the man with an unhealthy form of fear.