Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[Lizbeth]

Where is the danger if they are merely allegorical? I thought you took them literally. ???

Do you think there will be combustion taking place and literal worms eating the soul? They are expressing a "death" taking place on another level.

You seem to think that God operates under a LOWER set of morals and ethics than he holds us to. ???

Man is not qualified to judge his fellows, but God is and does!

Did God create you for noble purposes, or for base purposes?

I do not even judge myself on that level....you would have to ask He who is my judge!

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you think there will be combustion taking place and literal worms eating the soul? They are expressing a "death" taking place on another level.

No, not eating the soul.

2 Peter 3:10 NRSVue
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise,
and the elements will be destroyed with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.[a]

Man is not qualified to judge his fellows, but God is and does!

Take it up with a judge.

I do not even judge myself on that level....you would have to ask He who is my judge!

Shall I report on what he says?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

New readers poll topic

The Character of God - Reader Poll

/

 

[Lizbeth]

No, not eating the soul.

Do you think it is talking about physical death and decay.....I dont' think so, because it says it's better to enter heaven maimed than that thy whole body be cast into hell. "Hell" or hades in this instance is not talking about a physical grave where only the body is destroyed....since everyone is going to undergo physical death, including those who enter heaven...not just sinners. Second death occurs after being 'resurrected' long enough to face God's judgment.

Zep 2:1-3

Gather together, gather yourselves together, you shameful nation,

before the decree takes effect and that day passes like windblown chaff, before the LORD’s fierce anger comes upon you, before the day of the LORD’s wrath comes upon you.

Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD’s anger.

Read Zep 1 to see what decree is being referred to (2 Peter 3 reflects Zep 1). I think the idea being conveyed in 2 Peter 3 is that nothing but nothing will survive the wrath of God except what is sheltered/hid in the cleft of the Rock.

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you think it is talking about physical death and decay......it isn't, because it says it's better to enter heaven maimed than that thy whole body be cast into hell. "Hell" or hades in this instance is not talking about a physical grave where only the body is destroyed....since everyone is going to undergo physical death, including those who enter heaven...not just sinners.

Can you clarify what is literal to you, and what is allegorical?
I can no longer follow what you are saying. Thanks.

I understand the cutting off of hands and plucking out of eyes (to prevent sin) as being allegorical.
Jesus was not asking us to do that literally. Right? It was a warning about the coming judgment.

Would you agree that there is both physical life and death and spiritual life and death?
Which kind(s) of death came with the Fall of humankind? (Gen. 3)

One of the reasons for an Age of Restoration is because of all the public judgment to take place.
- Nations
- Leaders (government and religious)
- Individuals (every idle word and secret deed)

/

 

[Lizbeth]

Can you clarify what is literal to you, and what is allegorical?
I can no longer follow what you are saying. Thanks.

I understand the cutting off of hands and plucking out of eyes (to prevent sin) as being allegorical.
Jesus was not asking us to do that literally. Right? It was a warning about the coming judgment.

Would you agree that there is both physical life and death and spiritual life and death?
Which kind(s) of death came with the Fall of humankind? (Gen. 3)

One of the reasons for an Age of Restoration is because of all the public judgment to take place.
- Nations
- Leaders (government and religious)
- Individuals (every idle word and secret deed)

/

Don't know if I'm up to explaining it more than I have tried to do...not young any more and my brain isn't aging well at all, I'm sorry. But if I have been understanding you, you are making a case that "hell"/hades in scripture is only referring to physical death. Whereas I'm making the case that "hell"/hades is sometimes allegorical in scripture for something beyond the grave......the destruction of the soul after judgment takes place - as in the instance of those verses about entering heaven maimed rather than be cast into "hell". And judgment takes place after physical death....where one is "resurrected" to face the judgment and be cast into the lake of fire (hell/hades being an allegory for the lake of fire) if not found in the book of Life. Hope that helps, think it's the best I can do from my end.

(For those who are being saved, their soul is not left or cast into hell/hades to be punished and destroyed. "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol." Even though all our physical bodies are consumed/destroyed there. We are talking about either salvation of the soul or the "destruction" of it in hell - second death. It's a matter of either receiving/inheriting eternal life and immortality or not receiving immortality.)

The reason I brought those scriptures in the first place was to counter the argument that the lake of fire (hell) is not permanent, that it's only a kind of purgatory. Whereas "their worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched" indicates permanence.

 

[St. SteVen]

(For those who are being saved, their soul is not left or cast into hell/hades to be punished and destroyed. "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol." Even though all our physical bodies are consumed/destroyed there. We are talking about either salvation of the soul or the "destruction" of it in hell - second death. It's a matter of either receiving/inheriting eternal life and immortality or not receiving immortality.)

Scripture makes an allowance for those who have never heard. How does that work in your view?

Romans 2:14-16 NET
For whenever the Gentiles,[a] who do not have the law, do by nature[b] the things required by the law,[c]
these who do not have the law are a law to themselves.
15 They[d] show that the work of the law is written[e] in their hearts,
as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend[f] them,[g]
16 on the day when God will judge[h] the secrets of human hearts,[i]
according to my gospel[j] through Christ Jesus.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

Scripture makes an allowance for those who have never heard. How does that work in your view?

Romans 2:14-16 NET
For whenever the Gentiles,[a] who do not have the law, do by nature[b] the things required by the law,[c]
these who do not have the law are a law to themselves.
15 They[d] show that the work of the law is written[e] in their hearts,
as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend[f] them,[g]
16 on the day when God will judge[h] the secrets of human hearts,[i]
according to my gospel[j] through Christ Jesus.

/

You still haven't answered my question about how you interpret the scriptures that I brought.

However.....if the work of the Law is written their hearts doesn't that make them partakers of the new covenant in Christ.........according to Paul's gospel.

 

[amigo de christo]

Don't know if I'm up to explaining it more than I have tried to do...not young any more and my brain isn't aging well at all, I'm sorry. But if I have been understanding you, you are making a case that "hell"/hades in scripture is only referring to physical death. Whereas I'm making the case that "hell"/hades is sometimes allegorical in scripture for something beyond the grave......the destruction of the soul after judgment takes place - as in the instance of those verses about entering heaven maimed rather than be cast into "hell". And judgment takes place after physical death....where one is "resurrected" to face the judgment and be cast into the lake of fire (hell/hades being an allegory for the lake of fire) if not found in the book of Life. Hope that helps, think it's the best I can do from my end.

(For those who are being saved, their soul is not left or cast into hell/hades to be punished and destroyed. "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol." Even though all our physical bodies are consumed/destroyed there. We are talking about either salvation of the soul or the "destruction" of it in hell - second death. It's a matter of either receiving/inheriting eternal life and immortality or not receiving immortality.)

The reason I brought those scriptures in the first place was to counter the argument that the lake of fire (hell) is not permanent, that it's only a kind of purgatory. Whereas "their worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched" indicates permanence.

Sister you dont have dementia . march on in the LORD . folks like to play on words my dear sister in order
to believe in another inclusive gospel . i have seen this far too many times sister .
they try and word play as they overlook what is really getting said , THE MEANING BEHIND IT . watch out
for there are many who do this sister .
Thus the reminder remains the same . IF any cometh and tries to teach another gospel
another love , another anything that contradicts GOD , HIS CHRIST , the plain truth , IT will not be accepted by a lamb .
AND JESUS made sure to say what would occur to any and to all who BELIEVED NOT
as well as the eternal life unto those WHO DO BELIEVE . and as you well know
another jesus is NOT JESUS either . so the other reminder i give often and daily ALSO gets said again
ITS TIME folks just got in their bibles again for themselves and let GOD teach . cause many now teach
another salvation , another gospel , another means , another jesus and none of it will save one soul .

 

[Lizbeth]

Sister you dont have dementia . march on in the LORD . folks like to play on words my dear sister in order
to believe in another inclusive gospel . i have seen this far too many times sister .
they try and word play as they overlook what is really getting said , THE MEANING BEHIND IT . watch out
for there are many who do this sister .
Thus the reminder remains the same . IF any cometh and tries to teach another gospel
another love , another anything that contradicts GOD , HIS CHRIST , the plain truth , IT will not be accepted by a lamb .
AND JESUS made sure to say what would occur to any and to all who BELIEVED NOT
as well as the eternal life unto those WHO DO BELIEVE . and as you well know
another jesus is NOT JESUS either . so the other reminder i give often and daily ALSO gets said again
ITS TIME folks just got in their bibles again for themselves and let GOD teach . cause many now teach
another salvation , another gospel , another means , another jesus and none of it will save one soul .

Sometimes I sure wish this noggin of mine came with a crank because it doesn't always want to turn over these days, oh my goodness! Bless you brother, hope you're right about dementia, and would rather this doesn't keep getting worse.

I might not have been clear about what I was trying to say, so I dont' mind trying to clear up any confusion...if I'm able to. But also, it is sometimes a matter of needing ears to hear. And we can't really have ears to hear unless we're willing to be impartial so that the Lord can speak to us.

 

[St. SteVen]

You still haven't answered my question about how you interpret the scriptures that I brought.

All three views of the final judgment have biblical support.
Not sure what scriptures you brought that haven't been addressed.
You seem to have dismissed the scriptures that support eternal conscious torment. Right?

However.....if the work of the Law is written their hearts doesn't that make them partakers of the new covenant in Christ.........according to Paul's gospel.

Not sure if I would go so far as to say, "partakers of the new covenant in Christ".
But they obviously have some standing with God.

In Matthew 25 those who met needs of the hungry, naked, stranger, thirsty,
sick, and in prison inherited the kingdom.

Matthew 25:31-36 NET
“When[a] the Son of Man comes in his glory
and all the angels with him,
then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All[b] the nations will be assembled before him,
and he will separate people one from another
like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He[c] will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right,
‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you
from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink,
I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I was naked and you gave me clothing,
I was sick and you took care of me,
I was in prison and you visited me.’

/